Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

So?

We don't need them as enforcers here.
Our and eventually the Marquis' power is enough to keep the supernatural side of Vegas in line.

We want a strong connection between a supernatural Freeholder and a Government Agency here.

To set the example, to improve the Library's standing, to get them a direct cennection to the scene so to say, outside of semi-diplomatic contacts with the White Council.

How they choose to develope is not directly in our our ability to decide.
Wheather they try to get more of their own enforcers, lean hard on Daedalus to get their shit together or advise the FBI on founding a new branch isn't relevant here.
Wait if that's what you're going for then why do we need to tell them anything about us. Acting as a proper facilitator so Harrowmont and The library move in manners that are aligned would be enough. If we're not trying to dictate a course of action to the library of congress, why do we need to tell them that we're a sovereign state?

Edit: our power and actions alone can and should be enough to reach that end if we're not trying to dictate what they're going to do. If we're just trying to forward their connection acting as a good facilitator and suggesting they walk in an aligned manner should be enough because harrowmont owes everything to us and the Library of Congress still has Vegas and the entire Western Seaboard because of us.
 
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Wait if that's what you're going for then why do we need to tell them anything about us. Acting as a proper facilitator so Harrowmont and The library move in manners that are aligned would be enough. If we're not trying to dictate a course of action to the library of congress, why do we need to tell them that we're a sovereign state?
Cause its true and gives them a better picture of the situation.

I default to honesty if there's no point in keeping a secret.
 
Wait if that's what you're going for then why do we need to tell them anything about us.

You do realize that the facilitator option is a straight up lie? One that they will easily see through, and in fact are likely to already know is false.

We did not hide we were important during our stay in Vegas, not to them, not to any of the residents, and really not to Harrowmont, the man that they will deal with the most anyway.

There is a good reason not to lie, it's called showing trust, and being known for not lying.

Trust me, it helps, a lot.
 
That effort is doomed to fail. They have spent the last two hundred years, making themselves not an enforcement agency. They are not going to shift gears and become one just because we say so also they are doing good work in their position. We can put in a recommendation that they actually start up trying to find and figure out how to build an enforcement agency but the library is not it. No other actual law enforcement agency in America that knows about the Library of Congress as a non-enforcement agency is going to take them seriously when they try to become one and they're going to be furious if they make any successful move towards doing so without their consent. Reaching out in this meeting to say you guys need to figure out how to make a successful magical law enforcement agency is a thing we could do but trying to make the Library one is not it.
1) American government has failed at X for the last two hundred years, meaning it's doomed to fail forevermore is fallacious thinking. That something hasn't succeeded yet, doesn't mean it can't succeed.
2) I feel that you might be conflating several issues here. Whether LoC is or isn't an enforcement agency bears little relevance to how much we should involve ourselves in the current situation, which is setting up a treaty of Las Vegas and establishing the relationship between its new ruler and USA government. Right now, Las Vegas is in a rare situation where human-led alliance might take the leading role in the supernatural world. That's not something you see often in Dresdenverse, humans, even magical humans, are usually cattle. We (I) want the situation to succeed. This means we need to back it up. Staging rights, involvement in the situation, backing for the new ruler in some regards, so they can stay somewhat independent. Etc.

But, returning back to LoC. It can speak for USA government in at least some capacity. Their senior agents can get urgent in-person briefs with PotUS. They have political sway, and a lot of it.
As long as the US govt is controlled by people who will act in what they perceive as the national interest of the United States?
The Library is essentially the best you can hope for.

Because some wiseass will try to spy on geopolitical adversaries, or seek mundane poltiical advantage, or will try to make assertions of rights to people who preexist human writing, and eat the consequences.
Its not an accident that the time before this, the US natsec community went demon summoning for advantage.

Or worse, we get something that tries to go the route of the OPA in the Laundryverse.
And thats a mess you dont want to see.

And the last thing you want to do is make give the Library the sort of profile that will attract shit they cant handle.
Last thing I want too.
They survived this long by avoiding that kind of thing.
Your argument is, literally, as I read it, that international politics cannot be a net positive. If that is, in fact, your argument, I am sorry, but this is ridiculous.
Wait if that's what you're going for then why do we need to tell them anything about us. Acting as a proper facilitator so Harrowmont and The library move in manners that are aligned would be enough. If we're not trying to dictate a course of action to the library of congress, why do we need to tell them that we're a sovereign state?
The more we reveal, the more weight our words have. If we are a "questing knight" - supremely dangerous free agent with no political agenda safe their quest for stability of Creation, we are worthy of respect, and might get listened to in certain respects, but probably won't have much say on policies, and will be dismissed for the most parts in political talks. If we are a god-empress of our own realm, that's an entirely different thing, and we have a seat at the table.
 
[X] Yog

Just having saved their country from the apocalypse is a pretty good context to open diplomatic relations with the US government.
 
On the matter of the Library of Congress, the feeling Molly gets is that they are information gatherers and advisors. When they need something done they tend to do it from the mundane side, by informing other parts of the US government on a need to know basis. Their caginess with that information and unwillingness to act as a more directed arm of the state is part of what causes the political movers and shakers to periodically attempt to make such a magical enforcement agency. But where does putting Akuma and Red Court Vampires in cages fit in? Getting information. They do not seem to be going out there trying to personally push out the Red Court, but knowing what on Earth they are doing what with the whole war this, that is very useful.

To find out more information and get a clearer picture of the LoC you might want to actually talk to them, or talk to other people who have worked with them among your contacts.
 
The Library has, according to what they told us in front of a third party, explicitly avoided an enforcement role.
Thats unlikely to change now.

One of the reasons we are even talking to them is because they recognize their own reasonable limits.
And the dangers of pushing them.
Unlike Daedalus.
My read is that they haven't because the supernatural world strangles any real attempt before it can get anywhere and their core mission of keeping literal vampires from completely controlling Congress was more important than one more failed attempt.

The surpassingly rare alignment of circumstances here makes it possible for Vegas to become a stronghold where no one with the ability to do that is willing to try. Mortals are only helpless when they're ignorant and denied the ability to build tools/infrastructure. If they have the space to build up in they can potentially reach the level where they can actually do the job people are asking of them.

Maybe it doesn't end up being the library so much as whatever organization they trust enough to do the job while they run oversight, but the difference is largely academic at this level.
 
You do realize that the facilitator option is a straight up lie? One that they will easily see through, and in fact are likely to already know is false.

We did not hide we were important during our stay in Vegas, not to them, not to any of the residents, and really not to Harrowmont, the man that they will deal with the most anyway.

There is a good reason not to lie, it's called showing trust, and being known for not lying.

Trust me, it helps, a lot.
Okay. But do we actually have any lasting interest in vegas though? Other than haramont and making sure the western side of the America doesn't dissolve into a desert do we actually care about Vegas at all. Sure we'll leave maybe some agents here to make sure the situation doesn't devolve but outside of that do we actually have any lasting interests here? I normally agree with you on a lot. But there is a difference between not lying and just Divulging information that is not needed. If we are not trying to strong arm, this organization that has gone out of its way not to become what has been said so far Then other than volunteering this information, it does nothing. I actually rather like the library Congress. As a concept, but if we are just trying to facilitate a connection, we really don't need to volunteer information of this level to them.
Cause its true and gives them a better picture of the situation.

I default to honesty if there's no point in keeping a secret.
I just kind of think that this is giving away too much information for no reason. It doesn't give them any better view of a situation because we're not trying to make them do anything with that information if that makes sense. We're not trying to influence their decision nor are we aligning ourselves in a military sense or capacity. So it's not even just that they don't need the information other than acting as an information leak, they are doing nothing with it.
1) American government has failed at X for the last two hundred years, meaning it's doomed to fail forevermore is fallacious thinking. That something hasn't succeeded yet, doesn't mean it can't succeed.
2) I feel that you might be conflating several issues here. Whether LoC is or isn't an enforcement agency bears little relevance to how much we should involve ourselves in the current situation, which is setting up a treaty of Las Vegas and establishing the relationship between its new ruler and USA government. Right now, Las Vegas is in a rare situation where human-led alliance might take the leading role in the supernatural world. That's not something you see often in Dresdenverse, humans, even magical humans, are usually cattle. We (I) want the situation to succeed. This means we need to back it up. Staging rights, involvement in the situation, backing for the new ruler in some regards, so they can stay somewhat independent. Etc.

But, returning back to LoC. It can speak for USA government in at least some capacity. Their senior agents can get urgent in-person briefs with PotUS. They have political sway, and a lot of it.

Your argument is, literally, as I read it, that international politics cannot be a net positive. If that is, in fact, your argument, I am sorry, but this is ridiculous.

The more we reveal, the more weight our words have. If we are a "questing knight" - supremely dangerous free agent with no political agenda safe their quest for stability of Creation, we are worthy of respect, and might get listened to in certain respects, but probably won't have much say on policies, and will be dismissed for the most parts in political talks. If we are a god-empress of our own realm, that's an entirely different thing, and we have a seat at the table.
I'm specifically talking about trying to change the Library of Congress people have come out and said that that is not what they're trying to do and I can respect that but if that's not what you're trying to do other than volunteering information that really doesn't affect them if that's not what you're trying to do.... I don't really understand the purpose of volunteering that information.

America can and definitely should try to spin up a magical or Supernatural enforcement agency I just do not believe that the Library of Congress wants to or should be that agency because they have chosen their role and seem to be fulfilling it rather well.

As far as the questing Knight versus the queen idea I do get it but the questing Knight in this scenario is infinitely better. This is true because in the Questing Knight scenario their power can be relied upon If you know how to get them to move. As far as queens go trying to get them to move means immediately. You have to try and negotiate something. There's an immediate layer of diplomacy general decorum that has to be followed. Never mind the legal presidents of trying to negotiate with foreign powers without possible clearance.

I'm going to say it this way I think if we're not trying to change the Library of Congress and we're trying to establish a relationship between a freehold Lord and the Library of Congress taking a lighter hand rather than a sovereign one is probably a better idea.
 
Okay. But do we actually have any lasting interest in vegas though? Other than haramont and making sure the western side of the America doesn't dissolve into a desert do we actually care about Vegas at all. Sure we'll leave maybe some agents here to make sure the situation doesn't devolve but outside of that do we actually have any lasting interests here? I normally agree with you on a lot. But there is a difference between not lying and just Divulging information that is not needed. If we are not trying to strong arm, this organization that has gone out of its way not to become what has been said so far Then other than volunteering this information, it does nothing. I actually rather like the library Congress. As a concept, but if we are just trying to facilitate a connection, we really don't need to volunteer information of this level to them.
Yes we do. Purely pragmatically, godbot with a Solar exaltation is in Vegas.

And the more we reveal in terms of how large we are, the lower the chances someone will try to test us. There's a balance here, but revealing too little prompts others to test us.

Us backing the situation only makes it safer if others know not to provoke us.
I'm specifically talking about trying to change the Library of Congress people have come out and said that that is not what they're trying to do and I can respect that but if that's not what you're trying to do other than volunteering information that really doesn't affect them if that's not what you're trying to do.... I don't really understand the purpose of volunteering that information.

America can and definitely should try to spin up a magical or Supernatural enforcement agency I just do not believe that the Library of Congress wants to or should be that agency because they have chosen their role and seem to be fulfilling it rather well.

As far as the questing Knight versus the queen idea I do get it but the questing Knight in this scenario is infinitely better. This is true because in the Questing Knight scenario their power can be relied upon If you know how to get them to move. As far as queens go trying to get them to move means immediately. You have to try and negotiate something. There's an immediate layer of diplomacy general decorum that has to be followed. Never mind the legal presidents of trying to negotiate with foreign powers without possible clearance.

I'm going to say it this way I think if we're not trying to change the Library of Congress and we're trying to establish a relationship between a freehold Lord and the Library of Congress taking a lighter hand rather than a sovereign one is probably a better idea.
LoC act as advisors. They need to understand the situation to advise correctly.

As to the knight vs. queen. A questing knight js a rogue element. A head of state is a political entity, and thus is something that other politicians know how to interact with. A knight wanders off and can be distracted. A queen has the whole apparatus behind her which can be interacted with. The knight's only political argument is immediate violence. The queen has other instruments, making her safer to interact with.
 
Good night guys, see you tomorrow as Harrowmont lives out his dream of power and recognition and Molly tried to say 'Marcher Lord' without rolling her eyes. :V
I suppose conspiring with the federal government, the secret source of Vegas' power, and someone who may be described as a "fuckwhat demon thing*" does basically knock a significant portion off the top of this guy's bucket list doesn't it?

Really I wouldn't be surprised if we catch him running an anti-illusion ritual to check that Orpheus isn't playing a cruel joke on him or something. :V

*Harrowmont internally: is asking if someone is secretly a planet the demon-princess version of asking about their weight?
 
Yes we do. Purely pragmatically, godbot with a Solar exaltation is in Vegas.

And the more we reveal in terms of how large we are, the lower the chances someone will try to test us. There's a balance here, but revealing too little prompts others to test us.

Us backing the situation only makes it safer if others know not to provoke us.

LoC act as advisors.
They need to understand the situation to advise correctly.

As to the knight vs. queen. A questing knight js a rogue element. A head of state is a political entity, and thus is something that other politicians know how to interact with. A knight wanders off and can be distracted. A queen has the whole apparatus behind her which can be interacted with. The knight's only political argument is immediate violence. The queen has other instruments, making her safer to interact with.
What exactly about being Queen would make us harder to test? Or rather who would be deterred from testing Us by the title of queen that isn't already deterred by the slaying of Greater Akuma, Walkers, lowercase divinity and Outsiders, Methuselah level vampires. I cannot think of anyone who would be aware of all of those those as they all happened in public and would still try and test us that would not do so even with the title of Queen.

Which is to say we've done so many egregiously deadly things in public already we have fought Gods and methuselahs, the Walkers of the outside, the Will of Kakuri and more in public. I can't think of anyone who would test us despite this that would be deterred by the title of Queen. (Sorry for repeating myself I just felt the paragraph before wasn't very clear but I didn't want to erase it.)

If they're meant to be advisors why do they need to know about the five fold Court they're not going to advise us they're here for the Freehold Lord of Vegas. Knowing about the courts does nothing other than if you mess with our agents we're going to be upset with you which is true even if they don't know about the courts and just think there are employees or our servants or minions or what have you. The relevancy of the five-fold Court in the situation is not zero I will admit that much but the need of the Library of Congress to know about them to fulfill their role and Mission is zero.

Because our court is a complete unknown. The actual danger of messing with it is us. All adding the title of Queen does is make it so the library of congress immediately has to report back to their bosses every time they try and talk to us. Because they're not in charge of American policy in any sense. As a sovereign of a state, they have to try and get either an ambassador that can speak for america in a supernatural capacity or train someone from their number to get that clearance to do so anyway.

We do not want them to have to do that. If there is an issue that the library Congress has, we want them to come to us the wandering Knight and tell us they have a problem with the hope that we will fix it rather than they wait 2 weeks because they need to get A session of Congress in talk to the Executive Branch, hire an ambassador to try and negotiate a deal with us as the head of a sovereign state.

Just in general, unless we plan on further interacting with the library of congress purely as a head of state, there is really no function to telling them that we are that at this moment.
 
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[X] Plan delegation

[X] Eminence Grise, do not attempt to hide the deal over basing rights, but also do not make it obvious you are speaking for a nation scale entity, this is the kind of table where keeping some of your cards hidden is expected... though that is not to say they will not try to peak.
-[X] Splendor - Liar's Dice V2

[X] Power in your own right, make it clear that you too have a stake in Vegas in your own name.
-[X] Splendor - Liar's Dice V2
 
Whatever the vote I feel like this makes a good stunt
[Stunt]"What remains of the Red Court is fleeing Las Vegas." Molly says flickering a bit off blood off her sword.
 
1) American government has failed at X for the last two hundred years, meaning it's doomed to fail forevermore is fallacious thinking. That something hasn't succeeded yet, doesn't mean it can't succeed.

2) I feel that you might be conflating several issues here. Whether LoC is or isn't an enforcement agency bears little relevance to how much we should involve ourselves in the current situation, which is setting up a treaty of Las Vegas and establishing the relationship between its new ruler and USA government. Right now, Las Vegas is in a rare situation where human-led alliance might take the leading role in the supernatural world. That's not something you see often in Dresdenverse, humans, even magical humans, are usually cattle. We (I) want the situation to succeed. This means we need to back it up. Staging rights, involvement in the situation, backing for the new ruler in some regards, so they can stay somewhat independent. Etc.

But, returning back to LoC. It can speak for USA government in at least some capacity. Their senior agents can get urgent in-person briefs with PotUS. They have political sway, and a lot of it.
1)I would post that gif of Far Cry 3's Vaas asking about the definition of insanity here, but I dont want to risk coming off as insulting instead of funny.

The problem as I see it is that the fundamentals didnt change before, and there is no reason to believe the fundamentals have changed now. The same basic imperatives that led the US to go fucking around with demons in the 20th century is precisely the reason why I am increasingly coming over to an autonomous Library as the least evil.

Right now, in the setting, the US invaded Iraq, using the excuse of Afghanistan, and was making noises about Iran before Iraq became a quagmire. Thats precisely the sort of political opportunism you dont want. Hell, the Library started actively keeping the US govt out of this shit after the McCarthy witch hunts in the 1950s, so they share my skepticism.

There's a reason Dresden was uneasy about involving a govt agency with the akuma.
And its not just because he's got authority issues.



2) The Sin Eater explicitly had previous agents before the late Dragon.
Las Vegas was an oasis, and Native Americans explicitly lived in the Las Vegas valley before the coming of Europeans.
I dont really find the idea that Harrowmont is the first human very credible.



3)All this handwringing about no human involvement? The White Council may be a bunch of fuddy-duddies, but they are all human wizards, born of human parents, and have been involved in this thing since the fall of Rome. Similarly, human dominated organizations like the Venatori Umborum and the Shih have been a thing.

The difference is that all these NGOs try to avoid partisan political agendas, which has largely served well in insulating them from political pressures and opportunism.
A government agency under congressional oversight? Is very much not.


Your argument is, literally, as I read it, that international politics cannot be a net positive. If that is, in fact, your argument, I am sorry, but this is ridiculous.

Its that political oversight by governments and individuals whose priorities are securing careers and geopolitical dominance is very much not appropriate for existential threats from beyond space-time . Especially if you are going to actually trust them with this, instead of pretending to and keeping an eye over their shoulder in order to pull them away.

There's a reason why responsibility for existential threats were given into the hands of people who cant actually break their word under normal circumstances: the Sin Eater and the Fae.
Its not like humans werent available then.


My read is that they haven't because the supernatural world strangles any real attempt before it can get anywhere and their core mission of keeping literal vampires from completely controlling Congress was more important than one more failed attempt.

The surpassingly rare alignment of circumstances here makes it possible for Vegas to become a stronghold where no one with the ability to do that is willing to try. Mortals are only helpless when they're ignorant and denied the ability to build tools/infrastructure. If they have the space to build up in they can potentially reach the level where they can actually do the job people are asking of them.

Maybe it doesn't end up being the library so much as whatever organization they trust enough to do the job while they run oversight, but the difference is largely academic at this level.
Thats not my read.

Literally noone cared enough to stop Marcone signing up to the Accords once he got sponsors; even the Denarians only used it as an excuse to lure the Archive into snatching distance. The Sin-Eater has had representatives since he took the job back in prehistory; there is no indication that he only picked vampires and fae and spirits.


I will also point out that the Masquerade as it exists is pretty new by supernatural standards. Prior to the 17th century, this stuff was taken for granted. Cardinal De Richelieu(1585-1642 IRL) is literally in Mab's garden for allegedly fucking around and finding out, if I recall Butcher correctly.

It wasnt that long ago that nations in the West were burning witches at the stake; the last official execution for witchcraft in the UK was in 1727, and the last such execution in Switzerland was 1782. Iceland still has rules and customs about construction sites and rules for fear of disturbing the elves(yes, thats real).
 
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[X] Eminence Grise, do not attempt to hide the deal over basing rights, but also do not make it obvious you are speaking for a nation scale entity, this is the kind of table where keeping some of your cards hidden is expected... though that is not to say they will not try to peak.
-[X] Splendor - Liar's Dice V2
-[X]Use the royal We a lot. Don't explain.
 
What exactly about being Queen would make us harder to test? Or rather who would be deterred from testing Us by the title of queen that isn't already deterred by the slaying of Greater Akuma, Walkers, lowercase divinity and Outsiders, Methuselah level vampires. I cannot think of anyone who would be aware of all of those those as they all happened in public and would still try and test us that would not do so even with the title of Queen.
Not harder. Easier. Being a representative of a state gives us other avenues of interactions with political forces than violence. A questing knight only has violence as the language and tool. The queen of her kingdom has economics and politics too.
1)I would post that gif of Far Cry 3's Vaas asking about the definition of insanity here, but I dont want to risk coming off as insulting instead of funny.
Yeah, sure. And... No, the analogy I want to use here will have me banned. Let's put it a different way: slavery was successfully abolished in USA, and women suffrage was established.
The problem as I see it is that the fundamentals didnt change before, and there is no reason to believe the fundamentals have changed now. The same basic imperatives that led the US to go fucking around with demons in the 20th century is precisely the reason why I am increasingly coming over to an autonomous Library as the least evil.

Right now, in the setting, the US invaded Iraq, using the excuse of Afghanistan, and was making noises about Iran before Iraq became a quagmire. Thats precisely the sort of political opportunism you dont want. Hell, the Library started actively keeping the US govt out of this shit after the McCarthy witch hunts in the 1950s, so they share my skepticism.

There's a reason Dresden was uneasy about involving a govt agency with the akuma.
And its not just because he's got authority issues.
The fundamentals, as you call them, have both changed and not. They changed in that USA right now is a post-industrial modern state, and it was mostly an agrarian early industrial state two hundred years ago. This means that the tools and methods available to and employed by the government and individual actors are different. The situation hasn't changed in that USA (and other world governments) are still in the position of relative weakness in regards to major supernatural factions, to which most parts of said government are unaccustomed for. The situation hasn't changed that they would want to rectify said weaknesses. The situation has changed in that there is a new faction that can be dealt with in terms of modern international politics, or something approaching it. The situation has also changed in that there is now an active archangel-tier agent trying to maliciously bring down the separation of supernatural and mundane in a way that is designed to harm both.
2) The Sin Eater explicitly had previous agents before the late Dragon.
Las Vegas was an oasis, and Native Americans explicitly lived in the Las Vegas valley before the coming of Europeans.
I dont really find the idea that Harrowmont is the first human very credible.
Harrowmont is the first human agent in the era where large human presence in the area is expected. He's the first human agent in the era when active sin collection is maintained.
Its that political oversight by governments and individuals whose priorities are securing careers and geopolitical dominance is very much not appropriate for existential threats from beyond space-time . Especially if you are going to actually trust them with this, instead of pretending to and keeping an eye over their shoulder in order to pull them away.

There's a reason why responsibility for existential threats were given into the hands of people who cant actually break their word under normal circumstances: the Sin Eater and the Fae.
Its not like humans werent available then.
The responsiblity was given to immortal godlike beings in the era when humans were still cave dwellers. Humanity has changed since then, and, by their design, the immortal beings mostly haven't. Which is the cause of the conflict that you seem to be ignoring - that the tools made in the stone age are, while still useful, not necessarily optimal in the post-industrial information age, and that maintaining strictly stone age protocols and social mores is suboptimal.

EDIT:
Thats not my read.

Literally noone cared enough to stop Marcone signing up to the Accords once he got sponsors; even the Denarians only used it as an excuse to lure the Archive into snatching distance. The Sin-Eater has had representatives since he took the job back in prehistory; there is no indication that he only picked vampires and fae and spirits.
Yes, as soon as Marcone was coopted by Odin and / or Denarians, they didn't care enough to stop him. That's not exactly an argument against "supernatural tries to crush or subvert independent mundane-bred actors" hypothesis.
I will also point out that the Masquerade as it exists is pretty new by supernatural standards. Prior to the 17th century, this stuff was taken for granted. Cardinal De Richelieu(1585-1642 IRL) is literally in Mab's garden for allegedly fucking around and finding out, if I recall Butcher correctly.

It wasnt that long ago that nations in the West were burning witches at the stake; the last official execution for witchcraft in the UK was in 1727, and the last such execution in Switzerland was 1782. Iceland still has rules and customs about construction sites and rules for fear of disturbing the elves(yes, thats real).
And this is a topic of another discussion. Why should "supernatural timescale" which measures time in intervals longer than mortal timespan, be respected? They are slow to change. Why is it considered a virtue, instead of a weakness? They are slow to adapt. Mundane humanity is outpacing them.
 
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I'd question the White Council being a human institution, in the relevant sense here.

Sure, technically it certainly is, but practically they are a gerontocracy in which the old people and thus leaders are all 200+.
Their connection to modern humanity is tenuous at best, some are probably keeping up with it, many don't.
This is reinforced by their inability to interact with current technology.

Harrowmont and Molly are different, as supernatural heavy-weights that are born and raised in the late 20th century.
Their understanding of current governments is different, their view on democracy since the Renaissance is not that of an outsider looking at an interesting experiment, but as an insider having grown up in the system and absorbed its values.
 
Since the topic of *things have always been that way* came up again, I want to remind people that appeal to tradition is still a fallacy, and holds no water in an argument.

Things were like that doesn't mean things will always stay like that.
 
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