Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[DragonParadox]

The Special Collections Division of the Library of Congress is a two hundred year old organization.

They have told us they have an ongoing diplomatic relationship with the Catholic Church, and a formal liaison with the White Council. They have their own inhouse cabal of magic-users and magic crafters. They have demonstrated the institutional capacity to contain captured vampires, and are our primary candidate for the Feds that helped chase off the coven of lesser skinwalkers that got in a small war with a Native American tribe.

We dont even know what their relationship with the previous Dragon was; they certainly knew about the Red Court presence here, and if a newcomer like Arlene knew, so would they. And they were not surprised by the news of the Hellgate going critical either. I know Molly's convincing, but they werent about to arrange a meeting with POTUS to nuke Vegas on our word alone.

You are making one hell of a bunch of assumptions about who they are, and how they need our help to get set up.

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Anyone who knew that gate was there would have been able to guess that something was going deeply wrong with it when the Chaos ritual went up, trouble is that most supernatural factions use Ways to get in and out of places fast and trying to get in and out of Vegas via the Ways during that rite would have been very bad for the health of most who might attempt it. Just about the only major player able to get in a car and deliver themselves the old fashioned way was Michael Carpenter in Chicago, but he was called to guard the Gates against a fresh attack

Molly could have pulled Ramirez in, but that is because she would have used her inner world to teleport-cheat, a kind of pseudo-Way though the soul of a nascent primordial no one could really plug up.

 

[Goldfish]

EDIT
Does anyone remember if we have ever used a Crown question on the Library to identify its agents or any moles?

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I don't think we did.

I do remember that relatively recently, we checked to see if Brother D's people had been infiltrated, and were pleasantly surprised to finally find a supernatural group which contained no traitors or infiltrators.

 

[BoredMan]

I do remember that relatively recently, we checked to see if Brother D's people had been infiltrated, and were pleasantly surprised to finally find a supernatural group which contained no traitors or infiltrators.

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Yeah considering they are a human org it's more than likely they have spys like almost everyone else seems too in this setting. We should use the Crown to ask about what they did with those Akuma we gave them, we never followed up on that to see how such things are managed.

 

[BronzeTongue]

What agenda would that be? We already got rid of the Reds and I thought the point was to give the LoC a role in guarding the Gate by helping Harrowmont.

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The point, as I'd basically outlined in the original write in, is to get them supporting him and him supporting them so that the authorities have an actively supportive haven to bootstrap upwards in. If we leave Harrowmont to cut a deal on his own instead of writing something more like a mutual pact where everyone buys in with something and leaves with a personally useful benefit then it essentially relies on him taking some fairly unusual steps largely unprompted.

This is especially relevant because the Library is unlikely to push as hard under standard negotiating conditions as they might with a more active partner carving extra space for them.

 

[fictionfan]

Yeah considering they are a human org it's more than likely they have spys like almost everyone else seems too in this setting. We should use the Crown to ask about what they did with those Akuma we gave them, we never followed up on that to see how such things are managed.

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We have the names and pictures of many different agents. That is a lot of questions.

 

[BoredMan]

If we leave Harrowmont to cut a deal on his own instead of writing something more like a mutual pact where everyone buys in with something and leaves with a personally useful benefit then it essentially relies on him taking some fairly unusual steps largely unprompted.

This is especially relevant because the Library is unlikely to push as hard under standard negotiating conditions as they might with a more active partner carving extra space for them.

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Considering the national emergency called and how close to the wire this was I highly doubt the LoC isn't going to push for a more active role and I don't see why Harrowmont would be inclined to deny them either. That said on second thought I'm going back to my original vote after all because we don't know the LoC's MO they might actually not push for as much involvement as they need without us there to back up the notion.

[X] Eminence Grise, do not attempt to hide the deal over basing rights, but also do not make it obvious you are speaking for a nation scale entity, this is the kind of table where keeping some of your cards hidden is expected... though that is not to say they will not try to peak.
-[X] Splendor - Liar's Dice V2

We have the names and pictures of many different agents. That is a lot of questions.

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Yeah we should use the Crown to ask then. We don't actually know how the LoC runs yet internally we just know they listen to us and are better than that other human org Daedalus or whatever it was called.

 

[A_Somebody]

[X] Eminence Grise, do not attempt to hide the deal over basing rights, but also do not make it obvious you are speaking for a nation scale entity, this is the kind of table where keeping some of your cards hidden is expected... though that is not to say they will not try to peak.
-[X] Splendor - Liar's Dice V2

[X] BronzeTongue

 

[uju32]

I don't think we did.
I do remember that relatively recently, we checked to see if Brother D's people had been infiltrated, and were pleasantly surprised to finally find a supernatural group which contained no traitors or infiltrators.

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Huh.

We need to make a note to use one of the scenes with Von Trier as a focus to check after we get home from Vegas, just like we checked the White Council. Along with using one of the Sandra scenes to check for Outsider agents.
I wonder if they are actually clean.

 

[TheWoo]

[X] Yog

 

[uju32]

Considering the national emergency called and how close to the wire this was I highly doubt the LoC isn't going to push for a more active role and I don't see why Harrowmont would be inclined to deny them either. That said on second thought I'm going back to my original vote after all because we don't know the LoC's MO they might actually not push for as much involvement as they need without us there to back up the notion.

[X] Eminence Grise, do not attempt to hide the deal over basing rights, but also do not make it obvious you are speaking for a nation scale entity, this is the kind of table where keeping some of your cards hidden is expected... though that is not to say they will not try to peak.
-[X] Splendor - Liar's Dice V2

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This is what they told us:

Spoiler: Arc 5 post 1

At the surge of annoyance you feel a click two inches behind your temples and hear the faintest echo of an alien note resounding from within. Just like that the air around you warms, not all the way to the muggy August afternoon, but certainly a lot less obvious. The change, unlike being able to hear someone's breath at twenty peaces feels solid, permanent.

"Mister Hyde I assume?" you shake his hand firmly, but without turning it into a test that you are quite sure you would win. "Father Forthil said you had some questions for me about a meeting last month. I have to say I'm glad someone is asking questions about him. He was being quite forceful in matters that do not respond well to force."

"Or respond too readily , on the rebound," he gives a dark laugh, then catches himself, perhaps startled at having made the joke.

For his part Father Forthil seems glad that you are getting along so well, though he quickly ushers the conversation into his office. Once there he lays out to you why a librarian wants to talk to you about spooks messing with spooky things. You know some of it from the Daedalus files. Jefferson himself had bequeathed upon the fledgling library along with his personal collection the task of cataloguing and making available to Congress all branches of human knowledge including the occult. The objections to 'irreligious texts' take on a different meaning in that context.

Lost 1 Essence -> Now at 9/12 (Empathy Excelency to keep your poker face)

Hyde himself explains that while the Library had initially been concerned with collecting all manner of arcane texts and understanding such as may be necessary for the work of Congress, it quickly became apparent that some branches of knowledge were too dangerous for human hands, quite the opposite to Jefferson's original idealistic charge.

"Sad though it might be the librarian must at times wield the torch," he sighs, though he is quick to add. "But we have been rightfully resistant I think to attempts by Congress and other branches of government to press us into an enforcement role. This means we have seen many such attempts by other institutions, which has in turn lead to something of an oversight role. Think of my task here as an audit into agent Wright's actions. Did he ask you to do anything that made you uncomfortable? Anything odd, suspicious or as you said too forceful. Rest assured that I am not acting in any sort of enforcement quality vis a vis you." He hesitates a moment and in a manner that sounds less like boilerplate reassurance finishes: "I am aware that the clandestine nature of magic might have seen you take action to protect yourself which are not wholly under the light of the law, particularly as those laws were not designed arcane powers in mind or the threats of the unseen world."

Make of that what you will.
I assume he wasnt lying in front of a Catholic priest who would definitely report back, but that doesnt mean he was telling the whole truth either.

 

[uju32]

The point, as I'd basically outlined in the original write in, is to get them supporting him and him supporting them so that the authorities have an actively supportive haven to bootstrap upwards in. If we leave Harrowmont to cut a deal on his own instead of writing something more like a mutual pact where everyone buys in with something and leaves with a personally useful benefit then it essentially relies on him taking some fairly unusual steps largely unprompted.

This is especially relevant because the Library is unlikely to push as hard under standard negotiating conditions as they might with a more active partner carving extra space for them.

Click to shrink...

The Library has, according to what they told us in front of a third party, explicitly avoided an enforcement role.
Thats unlikely to change now.

One of the reasons we are even talking to them is because they recognize their own reasonable limits.
And the dangers of pushing them.
Unlike Daedalus.

 

[Yog]

[X] Plan delegation
-[X] Power in your own right, make it clear that you too have a stake in Vegas in your own name.
-[X] Swap most combat agents for a negotiations team
-[X] Use leadership and etiquette excellencies

[X] Splendor - Liar's Dice V2

 

[uju32]

Repeating my vote to include @BronzeTongue 's splendor

---

VOTE
[X] Facilitator only, Introduce Harromont to the Library people and let him cut his own deals with them as you did with him

[X] Splendor - Liar's Dice V2

 

[Degorium]

[X] Facilitator only, Introduce Harromont to the Library people and let him cut his own deals with them as you did with him
-[X] Splendor - Liar's Dice V2

Yeah I misunderstood what the Library of Congress was. They're essentially an oversight committee that reports back to the central government. Which means we don't actually tell them anything and to be frank they're better off not hearing anything to begin with. If the American government had a competent Daedalus agency or something along those lines then I'd be more along the lines of opening up a line of communication but if they're just going to be an oversight committee that essentially acts as the American version of the archive then we don't need to tell them anything they take whatever information they glean back to headquarters.

 

[Yog]

Yeah I misunderstood what the Library of Congress was. They're essentially an oversight committee that reports back to the central government. Which means we don't actually tell them anything and to be frank they're better off not hearing anything to begin with. If the American government had a competent Daedalus agency or something along those lines then I'd be more along the lines of opening up a line of communication but if they're just going to be an oversight committee that essentially acts as the American version of the archive then we don't need to tell them anything they take whatever information they glean back to headquarters.

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The American government won't get a chance to establish a competent Daedalus agency if we or someone like us don't talk to them. And with the Masquerade almost certainly coming down (Nemesis is persistent, and has a very clear advantage in this kind of asymmetric warfare), such agencies will be needed, and getting on the ground floor is useful.

Plus, as @BronzeTongue said - we have a chance to build something new and better here in Las Vegas, and that's important by itself. Which is why I want us involved.

 

[Artemis1992]

As they say, can't make a better world without getting some people on board with the idea.

Killing monsters and stopping apocalypses does nothing but sustain the status quo, keep it from getting worse.
Doesn't make things better by itself.

 

[Degorium]

The American government won't get a chance to establish a competent Daedalus agency if we or someone like us don't talk to them. And with the Masquerade almost certainly coming down (Nemesis is persistent, and has a very clear advantage in this kind of asymmetric warfare), such agencies will be needed, and getting on the ground floor is useful.

Plus, as @BronzeTongue said - we have a chance to build something new and better here in Las Vegas, and that's important by itself. Which is why I want us involved.

Click to shrink...

That effort is doomed to fail. They have spent the last two hundred years, making themselves not an enforcement agency. They are not going to shift gears and become one just because we say so also they are doing good work in their position. We can put in a recommendation that they actually start up trying to find and figure out how to build an enforcement agency but the library is not it. No other actual law enforcement agency in America that knows about the Library of Congress as a non-enforcement agency is going to take them seriously when they try to become one and they're going to be furious if they make any successful move towards doing so without their consent. Reaching out in this meeting to say you guys need to figure out how to make a successful magical law enforcement agency is a thing we could do but trying to make the Library one is not it.

 

[Goldfish]

[X] Facilitator only, Introduce Harromont to the Library people and let him cut his own deals with them as you did with him

[X] Splendor - Liar's Dice V2

 

[Degorium]

As they say, can't make a better world without getting some people on board with the idea.

Killing monsters and stopping apocalypses does nothing but sustain the status quo, keep it from getting worse.
Doesn't make things better by itself.

Click to shrink...

I actually Agree in totality. But the library has been establishing a reputation as a non Enforcement agency for the better part of two hundred years now, if they want to keep their legitimacy and not be sabotaged constantly in pursuing their responsibilities, they cannot try and shift gears now.

Now, if at this meeting, we suggest in no uncertain. Terms that the masquerade is going to fall and a proper magical law Enforcement side is needed. They have an opportunity to reach out to the powers that be the CIA the FBI whoever else they need to. To get people from those law enforcement branches proper training to form a competent Daedalus analog but it cannot be the Library of Congress they are in an advisory role to the members of the government on Supernatural matters they cannot also be law enforcement.

 

[Mithrill]

Concern: how likely and what would be potential consequences of scenario where hostile or unafiliated third party breaks the news to Library in a way that leads to them considering Molly a threat? After all "The girl has became a Queen of Hell few months ago" is technically true but does not paint a flattering picture.

 

[Degorium]

Concern: how likely and what would be potential consequences of scenario where hostile or unafiliated third party breaks the news to Library in a way that leads to them considering Molly a threat? After all "The girl has became a Queen of Hell few months ago" is technically true but does not paint a flattering picture.

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I think they're going to go "Hmm so that's what happened." Because other than being an insanely powerful Akuma that is like the only other explanation for our absolutely demonic energy and power. I don't think it's a surprise or says anything different about us cuz Molly Carpenter daughter of a sword of the Cross comes back with hellish power from the NeverNever and neither the Sword of the Cross nor the Church or the White Council do anything about it so Molly Carpenter the human became a queen of hell the end.

 

[uju32]

The American government won't get a chance to establish a competent Daedalus agency if we or someone like us don't talk to them. And with the Masquerade almost certainly coming down (Nemesis is persistent, and has a very clear advantage in this kind of asymmetric warfare), such agencies will be needed, and getting on the ground floor is useful.

Plus, as @BronzeTongue said - we have a chance to build something new and better here in Las Vegas, and that's important by itself. Which is why I want us involved.

Click to shrink...

As long as the US govt is controlled by people who will act in what they perceive as the national interest of the United States?
The Library is essentially the best you can hope for.

Because some wiseass will try to spy on geopolitical adversaries, or seek mundane poltiical advantage, or will try to make assertions of rights to people who preexist human writing, and eat the consequences.
Its not an accident that the time before this, the US natsec community went demon summoning for advantage.

Or worse, we get something that tries to go the route of the OPA in the Laundryverse.
And thats a mess you dont want to see.

And the last thing you want to do is make give the Library the sort of profile that will attract shit they cant handle.
Last thing I want too.
They survived this long by avoiding that kind of thing.

 

[Nyarky]

And here we are again, arguing if we should talk to our allies, when we know our ennemies already have most of the info, and that cooperation is always ore helpful than hiding what is not a secret for no reasons:

[X] Power in your own right, make it clear that you too have a stake in Vegas in your own name.

[x] Yog

[x] BronzeTongue

Let's be honest, we were not a facilitator, and the Library will see that quickly if they do their job, which they are able to do.

Lying to their face is just asking for problems later down the line.

That effort is doomed to fail.

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With that attitude, maybe, but if we actually do the work to have them change, well, we are exalted, and we did spend a lot of time proving that things can change.

You can't win if you don't even try.

Edit:

As long as the US govt is controlled by people who will act in what they perceive as the national interest of the United States?

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Then I guess we'll just have to run for president, shouldn't be too hard.

 

[Degorium]

And here we are again, arguing if we should talk to our allies, when we know our ennemies already have most of the info, and that cooperation is always ore helpful than hiding what is not a secret for no reasons:

[X] Power in your own right, make it clear that you too have a stake in Vegas in your own name.

[x] Yog

[x] BronzeTongue

Let's be honest, we were not a facilitator, and the Library will see that quickly if they do their job, which they are able to do.

Lying to their face is just asking for problems later down the line.



With that attitude, maybe, but if we actually do the work to have them change, well, we are exalted, and we did spend a lot of time proving that things can change.

You can't win if you don't even try.

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I do think we should try I just mean trying to make the Library of Congress the one is not going to work because they do not want to be in that position and you cannot make someone do something they just don't want to do not without mind control. Talking to them at this meeting saying that it is necessary for them to spin up a supernatural law enforcement spinoff is something we can and should do just trying to make them it is not going to work.

 

[Artemis1992]

I actually Agree in totality. But the library has been establishing a reputation as a non Enforcement agency for the better part of two hundred years now, if they want to keep their legitimacy and not be sabotaged constantly in pursuing their responsibilities, they cannot try and shift gears now.

Now, if at this meeting, we suggest in no uncertain. Terms that the masquerade is going to fall and a proper magical law Enforcement side is needed. They have an opportunity to reach out to the powers that be the CIA the FBI whoever else they need to. To get people from those law enforcement branches proper training to form a competent Daedalus analog but it cannot be the Library of Congress they are in an advisory role to the members of the government on Supernatural matters they cannot also be law enforcement.

Click to shrink...

So?

We don't need them as enforcers here.
Our and eventually the Marquis' power is enough to keep the supernatural side of Vegas in line.

We want a strong connection between a supernatural Freeholder and a Government Agency here.

To set the example, to improve the Library's standing, to get them a direct connection to the scene so to say, outside of semi-diplomatic contacts with the White Council.

How they choose to develope is not directly in our our ability to decide.
Wheather they try to get more of their own enforcers, lean hard on Daedalus to get their shit together or advise the FBI on founding a new branch isn't relevant here.