I get the concern, hell I share it, but I just don't feel like I can build interesting and challenging enemies for the level you are at now with it as canon, I recognize that this is a limitation of my ability to work with the system but for right now I see some kind of change as the best of a bad lot of options. All I can do is promise to make any changes as narratively seamless as I can and not do this kind of thing again.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
I get the concern, hell I share it, but I just don't feel like I can build interesting and challenging enemies for the level you are at now with it as canon, I recognize that this is a limitation of my ability to work with the system but for right now I see some kind of change as the best of a bad lot of options. All I can do is promise to make any changes as narratively seamless as I can and not do this kind of thing again.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Any Supernatural enemy with a power Stat of 6+.
- Location
- Germany
This guy here is effectivly Dharma 7 and in some ways stronger due to the Greater Akuma template.
Does it look like we can't stand up to him without a damage-boost?
- Pronouns
- ImBuda
Ok, I will accept changing the charm but in exchange you have to modify the gun system. That they were almost able to make us suffer 15 damage doesnt make sense mechanically and in Lore, because that means that 6 mooks with guns will be able to kill Mab or the White court king without any effort if they take them by surprise.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
We took 4 dmg and nearly took +10 damage and only avoided that because they were mooks. This is with late game soak. Add to that he has not attacked us yet. So yeah, we can't take him comfortably without a damage booster.
To be fair that 15 damage assumes 3 professional assassins getting very lucky while on full auto. Still might look into that later.
Going to be honest Molly is a combat focused exalted. Combat exalted can kill just about anything, by design. Their is basically nothing short of armies, that combat exalted have to worry about. Their comes a point when if an exalted can kill the problem, it easier then any other option.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
That is not the issue. The issue is that DragonParadox is not sure how to balance encounters till E4.
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- Pronouns
- ImBuda
Yes but that is even bigger than our 6 damage using the radioactive flame of hell. If we were without Shintai we might have died
Sort of my point, balance is a myth, and exalted by design break it. Any opponent trying to get into combat with Molly, is most likely going to end up dead. Their comes a point where you bring an army, or you give on combat with an exalted, and try something else.
That was after getting through the enemy's very good soak, created by his multiple sources of magical soak.
- Location
- Germany
We soaked a full Yin Nihilus from him.
I doubt he has much more on the offence.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
The example story for ExWod has a fresh essanse 1 Exalted beating a Elder vampire. Vampires are not supposed to be in the same weight class as Exalted.
Bro, its fine. Rule zero is solidly with you on thisWith that damage not being soakable the most dangerous thing I can throw at you becomes lots and lots of mortals with guns, or really anything with guns, anything that can aim, pull the trigger and hang on at full automatic. I don't mind perfect or die in general for the mid to late game, but we are not there yet. It would do a disservice to the narrative and warp the world...
I hate to do this as a GM, a lot, but I am going to have to ret-con GSNF to be soak-able for things that can soak agg for the sake of being able to write this quest long term. I've had this sinking feeling before and I know where it leads, the land of 'no more quest'. If anyone wants to stop reading because of this I entirely understand. I made a mess of this thing
For the record I am fine making it unsoakable later but not right now it does not fit the story.
Harry is Arrete 5
For the sake of playing a game its worth it to be nerfed instead of ruining the game.
What, no. That's stupid. Guns are dangerous, thats like the entire point of the masquerade in dresden files.
This isn't world of darkness. The late game is not that deadly here.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Honestly for me and it seems like for you too this entire arc has been something of a slog. I would not mind it being over with us quickly killing the corpse....yeah I literally cannot make this work.
This is the power creep that some have been worried about and the only way to fix it would be to give you nothing but singular opponents who can if not shrug off than at least take 4-5 levels of damage and continue to hit. This either needs to be soakable or it needs to be reduced or every fight in this story is going to be an elaborate game of tag where the enemy is either untouched or practically dead.
I hate to put this on you, especially after I argued rules as written for so long, but this thing is not fun for me to write and in the long term I do not think it is fun for you to read.
The results and fallout to this fight matter much more to me then the fight itself.
In the world of darkness the masquerade a core idea of the setting is that combat is incredibly dangerous which is why all the vampires who hate each other don't try and kill each other unless everything is in their favor. And ExWod was made with the intention that Exalted have the power to flip the table on old and established power structures.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
All Chars are being statted via WoD. The reason why GSNF is so problematic is that Dragonparadox does not want to stat end game bosses for the current fights.
Same, the whole Arc was a huge slog and I was glad when we finally are coming to an end. I even voted for the options that would make things faster.
Just one thing - spending a WP to autosux is almost always an option.
I basically stopped participating at this point, tbh. This arc being what it is contributed a lot to that.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Our 'balanced' fights are ones where for whatever reason we don't want to kill our enemies. A bunch of misguided mortals with guns are more dangerous to us then an elder vampire and I am totally fine with that.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
In Dresden files combat is just as deadly. I don't think that any vampire in the setting can survive a firey grenade going off inside of them which is what Green Sun Nimbus is.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
The thing though?
That is a direct quote. A Celestial, let alone a Solaroid, is the equivalent of a Master or Methuselah.
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Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Also got a response to the Balance Question.
I'm tearing my hair out as a Storyteller, these fucking things are just too strong. How do I kill my players?
Well, first of all, go back to Chapter Ten and reread that bit about this being a power fantasy and it not being your job to fuck it up. But if you want to throw some speedbumps in front of The Infinite Human Ginsu Machine, Chosen of the Dawn, I strongly recommend the following options:
1) Target stuff he cares about rather than the Exalt directly, and which is less invincible than he is. Not only will this get the story moving in a hurry, but players love defending their Intimacies, and in the case of fighty Exalts, they usually get Essence for doing it, too.
2) Target his areas of non-expertise. Use poison gas, emotional manipulation, that sort of thing. An Exalt can usually smash a vampire with Potence and Celerity flat, but may have more trouble dealing with high Presence or Obfuscate. Mages can get a lot of mileage out of indirect attacks and debuffs.
3) Shapeshifters are really scary once you get past the tornado-of-claws aspect. A lot of Gifts either just work, or else target Willpower, which Exalts can't usually buff. Losing a couple of turns running and defending because of True Fear is a good way to break up an otherwise-unassailable battle pattern and get the Essence exhaustion ball rolling. The Chosen often have counters to these things, but those are either an investment on their own, or rely on your Intimacies kicking in to save you, which is at least an interesting stress point.
Here is the further part of it.
All That Power
Cutting straight to the chase: the Exalted are powerful. A group of Exalts can reasonably expect to fight a pack of werewolves and come out on top, throw down with an elder vampire with no prep, and otherwise run roughshod over most anything that gets in their way. This is by design.
Celestial Exalts, in particular, fly above the standard power curve of the world into which they've been reborn.
It's not limitless power, mind. Essence is easier to come by than most supernatural resources, but it's hard to make more of it show up when you need it.
In Exalted, it's not hard to rig up a Dawn Caste to be able to literally cut down armies of lesser opponents. In Exalted vs World of Darkness, a Dawn Caste cutting loose on full blast can be effectively invincible and unstoppable for one or two scenes, and then their Essence supply is going to falter and they're going to have problems.
It's a lot easier to run an Exalt ragged. I bring this up – the fact that there are ways to exhaust and beat down Exalted characters – because I
want you to be aware of it before I say this: It's not your job to stop the players from being unreasonably powerful. Yes, they can toss around power out of scope with the game.
Yes, they can roll up to a werewolf sept and turn it into a spiritually potent crater. Yes, a Solar who uses Excellence of the Rising Sun and Fivefold Bulwark Stance can set up a scene-long automatic dodge that her opponents will have a devil of a time mustering enough successes to punch through… and when something finally does, she can shrug off the damage with Adamant Skin Technique. In any other World of Darkness game, the instinct would be to pump the brakes.
Don't do that here. Certainly, you can throw trouble at the characters while their Essence is low if they start taking that power for granted, or toss an opponent at them that they haven't learned any countermeasures for yet, but do that because it's dramatic and tense and interesting, not because opportunities to catch an Exalt with their pants down are few and far between.
You're playing Exalted vs World of Darkness because the Exalted are ancient, powerful game-changers from prehistory suddenly crashing into a world of supernatural conspiracies. Let them be powerful. Build your Storytelling efforts around that, not against it.
I'm tearing my hair out as a Storyteller, these fucking things are just too strong. How do I kill my players?
Well, first of all, go back to Chapter Ten and reread that bit about this being a power fantasy and it not being your job to fuck it up. But if you want to throw some speedbumps in front of The Infinite Human Ginsu Machine, Chosen of the Dawn, I strongly recommend the following options:
1) Target stuff he cares about rather than the Exalt directly, and which is less invincible than he is. Not only will this get the story moving in a hurry, but players love defending their Intimacies, and in the case of fighty Exalts, they usually get Essence for doing it, too.
2) Target his areas of non-expertise. Use poison gas, emotional manipulation, that sort of thing. An Exalt can usually smash a vampire with Potence and Celerity flat, but may have more trouble dealing with high Presence or Obfuscate. Mages can get a lot of mileage out of indirect attacks and debuffs.
3) Shapeshifters are really scary once you get past the tornado-of-claws aspect. A lot of Gifts either just work, or else target Willpower, which Exalts can't usually buff. Losing a couple of turns running and defending because of True Fear is a good way to break up an otherwise-unassailable battle pattern and get the Essence exhaustion ball rolling. The Chosen often have counters to these things, but those are either an investment on their own, or rely on your Intimacies kicking in to save you, which is at least an interesting stress point.
Here is the further part of it.
All That Power
Cutting straight to the chase: the Exalted are powerful. A group of Exalts can reasonably expect to fight a pack of werewolves and come out on top, throw down with an elder vampire with no prep, and otherwise run roughshod over most anything that gets in their way. This is by design.
Celestial Exalts, in particular, fly above the standard power curve of the world into which they've been reborn.
It's not limitless power, mind. Essence is easier to come by than most supernatural resources, but it's hard to make more of it show up when you need it.
In Exalted, it's not hard to rig up a Dawn Caste to be able to literally cut down armies of lesser opponents. In Exalted vs World of Darkness, a Dawn Caste cutting loose on full blast can be effectively invincible and unstoppable for one or two scenes, and then their Essence supply is going to falter and they're going to have problems.
It's a lot easier to run an Exalt ragged. I bring this up – the fact that there are ways to exhaust and beat down Exalted characters – because I
want you to be aware of it before I say this: It's not your job to stop the players from being unreasonably powerful. Yes, they can toss around power out of scope with the game.
Yes, they can roll up to a werewolf sept and turn it into a spiritually potent crater. Yes, a Solar who uses Excellence of the Rising Sun and Fivefold Bulwark Stance can set up a scene-long automatic dodge that her opponents will have a devil of a time mustering enough successes to punch through… and when something finally does, she can shrug off the damage with Adamant Skin Technique. In any other World of Darkness game, the instinct would be to pump the brakes.
Don't do that here. Certainly, you can throw trouble at the characters while their Essence is low if they start taking that power for granted, or toss an opponent at them that they haven't learned any countermeasures for yet, but do that because it's dramatic and tense and interesting, not because opportunities to catch an Exalt with their pants down are few and far between.
You're playing Exalted vs World of Darkness because the Exalted are ancient, powerful game-changers from prehistory suddenly crashing into a world of supernatural conspiracies. Let them be powerful. Build your Storytelling efforts around that, not against it.
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Pretty sure also depends on what Essence the Solaroid is at. Also, I'm pretty sure the quote is about not comparing Solaroids to cheese strats.
While its explicitly to not be an indication of combat power, the power equivalence chart for calibrating mechanical interactions between spats puts E4 = 5th gen = 8 Dharma.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
No. Essence was deliberately divorsed from the Power curve and only a few charms make use of Essence rating. This was by design and was a marked move from Exalted core.