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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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firefrog600 said:
Supernaturally constrained choice does not mean your a robot. It sounds far more like a dislike than an actual logic problem.
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It does it it is a recursive thing that leaks into your every action like a Warlock's black magic mental contamination and that was the simile. If it is not absolute then you just need a new word for it because for the purposes of the person making the choice there is no difference between a naturally partially constrained choice (which all humans have to deal with) and a partially supernaturally constrained choice (which you are proposing).

You guys are a very Twilight-y Infernal so 'magic is physics by another name' is very relevant. :V

That said I think we may be getting a bit too far in the weeds, might be worth stepping back from the conversation until it becomes more relavant IC.
 
Alratan said:
But humans have their free will limited by their nature.

If they aren't, for example, smart enough to realise an option exists, it's impossible for them to take it.
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A fey cannot do something for you without you incurring a debt. A fey can't just do something on a whim for no reason, everything they do causes a debt to be created. They do not and even cannot do anything for nothing a human can.
 
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DragonParadox said:
It does it it is a recursive thing that leaks into your every action like a Warlock's black magic mental contamination and that was the simile. If it is not absolute then you just need a new word for it because for the purposes of the person making the choice there is no difference between a naturally partially constrained choice (which all humans have to deal with) and a partially supernaturally constrained choice (which you are proposing).

You guys are a very Twilight-y Infernal so 'magic is physics by another name' is very relevant. :V

That said I think we may be getting a bit too far in the weeds, might be worth stepping back from the conversation until it becomes more relavant IC.
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Eh quest vs canon. I'm arguing that it is not a fundamental flaw of the setting because none of this actually contradicts what butcher says. Jim butcher clearly thought out the rules of his universe it's also not like he dislikes non humans. They in this world just literally can't do no matter how hard they try certain things.

This is like arguing dragon from worm isn't a person cause she can't do certain things and that her choices don't matter. Ultimately what people believe don't matter in this situation the fact of the matter is non humans have less choice than humans.
 
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DragonParadox said:
That is logically consistent, but it also makes everything that is not a human, an angel or God functionally a non-Character, set dressing. Toot Toot had no choice but to save Harry because he gave him that pizza, no more worthy of recognition than your computer is when it turns on in the morning as it should. But really even if one were willing to void the narrative value of so many characters for the sake of logical consistency it still does not account for how Thomas acts and the choices he makes, it does not account for Susan Choosing to die when she was a full Red Court vampire at the last. Jim Butcher is a good storyteller and the demands of a good story require that the major characters in his stories be characters, which does not mean wholly unconstrained in thought and action, no one is, but it also does not mean wholly constrained as you are describing.
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Toot toot had the choice of how he went about saving Harry at the very least and in that one can see his character expressed.

Thomas is still human enough and is the scapegoat of his family so he has a higher degree of freedom in his actions and thoughts than other Raiths.

Susan was the one of the youngest of the Red Court, meaning that in the few moments that she was Red Court she was still more Susan than she was Red Court as she had only taken the action of feeding/living off of people as a Red Court vampire once, in the moment of her death and was in fact conditioned trough her years in the Fellowship of St.Giles by Martin to be able to make that sacrifice. She still had choices, but in the end very few and arguably only two in that moment which is still more than the average newly turned Red Court vamp would.

DragonParadox said:
From there I am standing that just means that in Green Flame Rising it is my job to hammer it into some semblance of sense.
*distant clanging noises* :V
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Go watch the Overly Sarcastic Productions video on God of War Raganrok when you have an hour or two to burn on it then. They have some relevant discussions and instructions for your DIY work.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
A fey cannot do something for you without you incurring a debt. A fey can't just do something on a whim for no reason, everything they do causes a debt to be created. They do not and even cannot do anything for nothing a human can.
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And is there anything stopping a fey from having a bunch of unpaid debts. Likely for a very long time? It might be unwise for a fey to do things on a whim, but they are clearly capable of doing so. Saying that they lack free will is just trying to confuse the issue.
 
firefrog600 said:
Eh quest vs canon. I'm arguing that it is not a fundamental flaw of the setting because none of this actually contradicts what butcher says. Jim butcher clearly thought out the rules of his universe it's also not like he dislikes non humans. They in this world just literally can't do no matter how hard they try certain things.
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So about that time he said you could bind an archangel with a circle that could be taught to a novice and hen decided they could snuff out galaxies :V

There are enough plot holes in canon that I am quite comfortable starting from the premise that Butcher is capable of making systemic mistakes.
 
DragonParadox said:
So about that time he said you could bind an archangel with a circle that could be taught to a novice and hen decided they could snuff out galaxies :V

There are enough plot holes in canon that I am quite comfortable starting from the premise that Butcher is capable of making systemic mistakes.
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I'm unsure how that's a plot hole so much as a wtf in universe horrifying thing?

Angels clearly have to accept human free will to some degree.
 
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fictionfan said:
And is there anything stopping a fey from having a bunch of unpaid debts. Likely for a very long time? It might be unwise for a fey to do things on a whim, but they are clearly capable of doing so. Saying that they lack free will is just trying to confuse the issue.
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I mean this is kind of solved by the fact they have a range of choices it's not like they don't have a near infinite amount of choices just less infinite choices than humans.
 
Dmol8 said:
Toot toot had the choice of how he went about saving Harry at the very least and in that one can see his character expressed.

Thomas is still human enough and is the scapegoat of his family so he has a higher degree of freedom in his actions and thoughts than other Raiths.

Susan was the one of the youngest of the Red Court, meaning that in the few moments that she was Red Court she was still more Susan than she was Red Court as she had only taken the action of feeding/living off of people as a Red Court vampire once, in the moment of her death and was in fact conditioned trough her years in the Fellowship of St.Giles by Martin to be able to make that sacrifice. She still had choices, but in the end very few and arguably only two in that moment which is still more than the average newly turned Red Court vamp would.



Go watch the Overly Sarcastic Productions video on God of War Raganrok when you have an hour or two to burn on it then. They have some relevant discussions and instructions for your DIY work.
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It is either a matter of kind or its a matter of degree. If Susan could be 'more Susan than she is Red Court' then the limitations are not absolute and conceptual, just very strong.

Anyway I have to run, will talk more later.
 
firefrog600 said:
I'm unsure how that's a plot hole so much as a wtf in universe horrifying thing?
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Yeah, that one's actually a pretty great example of the constrained-nature thing. An archangel is simultaneously (a) powerful enough to destroy galaxies and (b) required to respect being bound by humans like that when summoned. Lots of power doesn't translate to the ability to ignore your nature, for the immortals.
 
Making a note:
Twenty feet down on a ladder missing every third step, it looks like a bomb shelter, though only the shape of the room and the stains on the wall remain to show where the furnishings had once been, a tunnel leading east, black as pitch but to your eyes unveiled by the very presence of the akuma who move through it, hands twitching, eyes wide in terror... Why?
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The lesser akuma are afraid of something else here. I suspect that we may not be dealing with just the greater akuma.
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Artemis1992 said:
The Bakemono are primarily spies, not combatants.
I wouldn't bet on them all being anywhere near here.
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True.

But half of them are verifiably here: one of the men and the ten year old, we can both see.
Good chance the other half is as well.
At the very least, we need to assume they are.
DragonParadox said:
  1. Hmm.... fair enough the ward is actually a proper secret, editing
  2. She can, though it is harder for her and might take longer
  3. Yep that is a good count
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1)Thank you. So we have 8/12 Essence. Should be enough.
2)Fair. So better as a combatant
3)👍
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One more set of questions

@DragonParadox
QUESTION
Across the tracks there is another building, mostly intact and filled with far more furnishing beside, pots, pans an electric stove tossed in the corner, a hose leading out the window and in the air the lingering acrid smell of something foul to more than mortal senses, a place of ruin and ruin indeed it was still.
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1)Is this window in the torture room, or elsewhere in the building?
2)Is there water/other liquid in that hose?
3)Does Transcendent Lord of Flies apply here for either the hostage rescue, or preparing our attack force?
4)Do the mercs have tactical radios for communications?
5)Do they have rappelling/climbing ropes?
6) Is civilian traffic to this area cut off by the police, or is Gard going to have to do something again?
 
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You know, this is probably the first time I have been happy to see Uju as the one to post, because it meant someone was working on having a plan for our attack instead of continuing the free will debate.

I am ashamed of myself and will now commit sudoku.

 
DragonParadox said:
It is either a matter of kind or its a matter of degree. If Susan could be 'more Susan than she is Red Court' then the limitations are not absolute and conceptual, just very strong.

Anyway I have to run, will talk more later.
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Could also be a matter of conditions and or a mix.

Still don't think the angel thing is a plot hole so much as a huge horrifying limitation of the setting. Not to say butcher doesn't add things as he goes along cause he does butters wasn't even a character he thought of until way later.
 
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uju32 said:
Making a note:

The lesser akuma are afraid of something else here. I suspect that we may not be dealing with just the greater akuma.
====

True.

But half of them are verifiably here: one of the men and the ten year old, we can both see.
Good chance the other half is as well.
At the very least, we need to assume they are.

1)Thank you. So we have 8/12 Essence. Should be enough.
2)Fair. So better as a combatant
3)👍
===
One more set of questions

@DragonParadox
QUESTION

1)Is this window in the torture room, or elsewhere in the building?
2)Is there water/other liquid in that hose?
3)Does Transcendent Lord of Flies apply here for either the hostage rescue, or preparing our attack force?
4)Do the mercs have tactical radios for communications?
5)Do they have rappelling/climbing ropes?
6) Is civilian traffic to this area cut off by the police, or is Gard going to have to do something again?
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  1. Yes
  2. Molly has no idea, the vision was not that detailed
  3. It does when environmental dangers are concerned, but not generally
  4. Yes they do
  5. Yep, adventurer's mantra 'always bring rope', though they did leave the 10 foot pole at home
  6. It is cut off by the cope, that is what you brought them for
 
fictionfan said:
And is there anything stopping a fey from having a bunch of unpaid debts. Likely for a very long time? It might be unwise for a fey to do things on a whim, but they are clearly capable of doing so. Saying that they lack free will is just trying to confuse the issue.
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But they do lack free will, say you owe someone a debt a human can just say forget about and end the debt without repayment a fey cannot.
 
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