Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

The conversation is obtuse enough that if we want we can deny agreeing to anything. Also she is in no position to complain if that happens. Eiko is taking a bit of a leap of faith here.

How quickly do hungry dead heal anyway? Because even though we have decided not to pera kill her I see no reason not to mess her up sufficiently that she will not be a problem for days at least.

That's a fair point, though it's worth being careful about how we approach this sort of thing.

Screwing people on subtle understandings isn't uncommon, but getting a rep for it can stop people from working with you unless they think they can nail you to something.

If we had to pick our poison I'd choose the potential rep hit, but I'd rather take a different approach if we go for conspiring with her.

This was me being bad with articles. Englsih is not my first language, and this part of it has no direct analog in Russian. I try to believe that I am fluent in English, but sometimes subtleties of it elude me.
In fairness to you, this is just one of those weird English things. There are a lot of stock phrases that people throw around where a singular article is used, and the reader is supposed to pick out if you mean it literally or not from context.

Strictly speaking that's not how you're supposed to do things, but it's like speeding on back country roads. Almost everyone does it occasionally.

And yet Knights of the Cross. And an in-game precedent of letting rampires go. Our further interactions would heavily depend on what she agrees to later. Not (actually) fighting her now is still a reasonable choice, even if we don't continue any collaboration afterwards.
The knights are the result of the white god's inhuman perspective on his core tenets. While in general his approach his nice on a macro level, it tends to fall apart when dealing with genuine bad actors who know what they're doing and want to do it anyway.

I just want to point out that the White God is not a good source for complex moral choices. The White God supports its definition of Free Will, not what a modern person would call free will, this is an entity that is fine with permitting coercion, mind-control, addiction and various other supernatural nastiness.
I think it's worth giving it some more credit here, though I agree there are issues.

The system is flawed, but one thing it does do is help the white god interact with the world without becoming a super tyrant. Even benevolence with that much force could strangle any perspective but his.

If you view it less as reality spanning laws meant to organize the universe and more foreign policy from an entity that wants to help without squishing anything smaller than a Celestine the white god's rules make a lot more sense.
In ExWoD we don't know that's true. He may have been corrupted by the emanations of the sealed Infernal Exaltations.
I doubt that. For one thing, we know the reverse is what happened. For another, we know Emma-O snapping is what brought him to join the thousand hells. He couldn't have been exposed until after he linked up with them.

It's not like an infernal exaltation would have been hanging out in his realm when it was still a neutral afterlife. Which is supported by Molly's being excavated by a border region between Kakuri and Lanka that predated both.
I don't think we've been given any reason to believe this is the case.
Eiko wants to study the exaltation so she can work out how it got corrupted in hopes of learning to reverse that process for Emma-O.

Doing so requires learning a lot about how exaltations and the top shelf metaphysics of the hells.

Even if we scrub the exalted stuff out for the corruption part alone that's still power. If the big book of Yami Wan is enough to seriously improve the supernatural leverage of someone in the hells then an in depth study of this lore would likely be worse.

Eiko still works for Emma-O. If she gets more powerful it'll likely be reflected in her work. She can sandbag, but if her restrictions and orders are good there's only so much of that she can do. It's also a deal that has us pay her in lore without an end point for a service now. If it goes belly up she can walk away with what we gave her to do whatever.

Emma-O's recruitment MO is to groom his shikome to see him as a combination father/husband/god. That's how he gets them to sell their souls to him.
she knew those eyes, she had seen them glare with fury and disappointment from atop a throne of ice and bone throne in Kyuden no Kakuri, but she had never seen within them a look of compassion.
Fear hope, shame, revulsion, fear hope shame... The emotions cycle through Eiko like an electric current. How could she not take his hand?> How could she give up so much of herself, all that she had surrendered, all that had been changed.

"I cannot." Two words yet all the robed wanderer needed to hear, he raised his staff to fight as he had done times uncounted... but this too the Akuma refused, to her shame ever-lasting. Her hatred had died, but terror and greed still passed through her heart like worms through rotted fruit.
If that was ever the case here it seems long gone now. Every emotion she felt here was centered on herself.

She's afraid of what he'll do to her, hopeful for the potential to be free, but repulsed by the idea of giving up what she paid so high a price for and ashamed of that.

Not once in the emotional nucleus of this entire conspiracy did she think about him in any way but a source of danger and misery.

Edit: missed the QM post that partially refutes that last bit.
 
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The knights are the result of the white god's inhuman perspective on his core tenets. While in general his approach his nice on a macro level, it tends to fall apart when dealing with genuine bad actors who know what they're doing and want to do it anyway.
Agreed. White God is likely something like a Primordial with a theme of Free Will (which is one of the reasons I think they might be a successful Devil Tiger).

Still, we aren't committing to making Eiko stronger at this moment. How we interact with her later is going to be a matter of a separate vote. I am fairly sure that there are ways in which we could thread that needle - both lead her on the path to redeeming Emma-O, and mitigate her own evil. Personal preferred outcome would be if she was commanded to remain in Chicago to spy on us while maintaining a low profile. In this arrangement we could stop her from causing harm to innocents, and feed Emma-O false data.
 
Generally, the white god and his major servants seem to a have a theme of prioritizing not commit evil themselves over preventing evil so often don't act at all. Given their personal power I can see their argument.
 
A small note here, she has also been confronted with what is Emma-O's better nature, his honor, his compassion etc... She knows as a matter of fact that he can be better. That probably impacted her choice in Molly's opinion.

The fact that the Yama King has been unable or unwilling to destroy Jizo also has interesting implications, though there are too many possibilities to hazard a strong guess as to why that might be

Emma-O also has himself tortured to pay for his sins, just as he has the sinners in his Hell tortured as well.

There's more than one thing she could use to try to persuade herself he's redeemable.
I doubt that. For one thing, we know the reverse is what happened. For another, we know Emma-O snapping is what brought him to join the thousand hells. He couldn't have been exposed until after he linked up with them.

It's not like an infernal exaltation would have been hanging out in his realm when it was still a neutral afterlife. Which is supported by Molly's being excavated by a border region between Kakuri and Lanka that predated both.

In ExWoD, Yomi is the mess it is because the Infernal Exaltations are buried beneath it. And yes, the influence goes both ways, but the Exaltations were there first and are why Yomi is Yomi. The particular Hells them influenced the way the Exaltations express themselves back. It's quite possibly a feedback loop.

And my suggestion isn't that this is the case in canon ExWoD but the intersection between ExWoD and the changes DP has suggested he's making to Emma-O's history to make his fall gradual. In that case, yes he chose to be a Yama King, but he may not have realised what effect that would have on him. Not all Yama Kings are evil, and he may have resisted corruption for centuries before being increasing degraded by it.

Eiko wants to study the exaltation so she can work out how it got corrupted in hopes of learning to reverse that process for Emma-O.

Doing so requires learning a lot about how exaltations and the top shelf metaphysics of the hells.

Even if we scrub the exalted stuff out for the corruption part alone that's still power. If the big book of Yami Wan is enough to seriously improve the supernatural leverage of someone in the hells then an in depth study of this lore would likely be worse.

Eiko still works for Emma-O. If she gets more powerful it'll likely be reflected in her work. She can sandbag, but if her restrictions and orders are good there's only so much of that she can do. It's also a deal that has us pay her in lore without an end point for a service now. If it goes belly up she can walk away with what we gave her to do whatever.

I strongly doubt there's anything you could learn from an Exaltation that could help an akuma get more powerful. Knowing how to redeem a Yama King wouldn't make them more powerful, probably less. Learning about the metaphysics of the Hells doesn't make an akuma more powerful, as their powers aren't based on understanding, they're all given to them.

I do think you could probably study an Exaltation and learn things that would help a Wan Kuei, but that's because I think that the Wan Xian were a type of celestial Exalt analagous to Alchemicals and the Wan Kuei are a cursed and degraded version. Learning how to reverse the degradation of a Yama King may help do the same with the Wan Xian, as may understanding more about the nature of Exaltation.
 
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In ExWoD, Yomi is the mess it is because the Infernal Exaltations are buried beneath it.
No Yomi Wan is a mess because the overwhelming majority of the Yama Kings are rapacious corrupt monsters, Prior to them deciding to turn the realms used for kharmicly cleansing the wicked into their own private torture farms for corrupt chi the place was working out just fine.

While ExWoD does say that the Infernal Exaltations influenced that particular area of the spirit worlds, it being an absolute mess is solidly due to the Yama Kings own actions.
 
No Yomi Wan is a mess because the overwhelming majority of the Yama Kings are rapacious corrupt monsters, Prior to them deciding to turn the realms used for kharmicly cleansing the wicked into their own private torture farms for corrupt chi the place was working out just fine.

While ExWoD does say that the Infernal Exaltations influenced that particular area of the spirit worlds, it being an absolute mess is solidly due to the Yama Kings own actions.

It doesn't seem to have been that clear cut; the Infernal Exaltations has already corrupted the place, that's why Yomi Wan was built there in the first place.
 
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Paths of Sorcery Infopost has been updated with Psychic Phenomena. All Paths from Sorcerer Revised Edition and M20 Sorcerer are now included. I will next be working on adding Paths appearing in other 20 Anniversary Edition books.

I have also removed my opinions on the paths from the post as I don't think it is appropriate to have my views cluttering what is supposed to be a summary for the thread. (Beside I can demonstrate how wrong you all are whenever the thread get round to discussing Path Magic :p )
 
Sorry for the radio silence guys, my internet just cut out from a case of very stupid urban renovation. Get this:
  1. Underground wires are set up to replace all the fiber-optics and other cables which use the local public lighting to cross the nearby parking lot and snake over the facade of the apartment blocks, so far so good. Generally speaking exposed cabling is not a good aesthetic outside of a cyberpunk dystopia
  2. Workers come tear up all the exposed cabling... find out no new network was actually set up, the space is there but the company never paid for the cables themselves
  3. They eventually have to get the same cabling up on a nearby apartment-building and then snake it over to this one, there is now more exposed cabling around
 
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Sorry for the radio silence guys, my internet just cut out from a case of very stupid urban renovation. Get this:
  1. Underground wires wires are set up to replace all the fiber-optics and other cables which use the local public lighting to cross the nearby parking lot and snake over the facade of the apartment blocks, so far so good. Generally speaking exposed cabling is not a good aesthetic outside of a cyberpunk dystopia
  2. Workers come tear up all the exposed cabling... find out no new network was actually set up, the space is there but the company never paid for the cables themselves
  3. They eventually have to get the same cabling up on a nearby apartment-building and then snake it over to this one, there is now more exposed cabling around
Whoops!

That's even worse than how my entire company's computer system was brought down a few years back, well us and everyone else who made use of that data center, because some unaffiliated contractor was digging in a parking lot across the street and he cut through the fiber optic cable that connected the place to the internet.

Ironically, one of the products my company sells regularly could have been used to locate the fiber line before he started digging.
 
  1. Underground wires wires are set up to replace all the fiber-optics and other cables which use the local public lighting to cross the nearby parking lot and snake over the facade of the apartment blocks, so far so good. Generally speaking exposed cabling is not a good aesthetic outside of a cyberpunk dystopia
  2. Workers come tear up all the exposed cabling... find out no new network was actually set up, the space is there but the company never paid for the cables themselves
  3. They eventually have to get the same cabling up on a nearby apartment-building and then snake it over to this one, there is now more exposed cabling around

Step 4: a new company come to do some new renovations later and remove the last batch of exposed cabling, there is still no alternative network setup, ending with even more exposed cabling.

Edit:

At least it's not as bad as the incredible level reached by the chinese's building companies taking money then spending ten years twiddling their thumbs or dissolving while leaving you with empty plots where the new buildings where supposed to go.
 
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Focsani, in the glorious country of Romania on the eastern marches of the European Union. My bet is someone was paid to lay that underground cabling they just did not do it. That is how corruption tends to work, including the kludged solutions by people caught in the middle so things can keep rolling.

Hi neighbor. Does this happen in the old communist buildings as well? Or just the new ones that were built after the fall of communism in Romania?
 
Hi neighbor. Does this happen in the old communist buildings as well? Or just the new ones that were built after the fall of communism in Romania?

I would say it happens in old buildings more. It's not like the Ceausescu Regime was worrying about fiber-optics when they were piping in the two daily hours of state TV in the 80s. That said newer buildings have their own issues.
 
That's a fair point, though it's worth being careful about how we approach this sort of thing.

Screwing people on subtle understandings isn't uncommon, but getting a rep for it can stop people from working with you unless they think they can nail you to something.

If we had to pick our poison I'd choose the potential rep hit, but I'd rather take a different approach if we go for conspiring with her.
She can't even do a reputation hit because she can't admit the deal and even if she did her words against us don't have any value.
 
OK, looks like we are going along with the fight.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Mar 20, 2023 at 12:59 PM, finished with 100 posts and 12 votes.

  • [X] Agree to a mock battle before dawn which leaves Eiko 'unable' to aid the Will of Kakuri yet which leaves her in shape to recover rather than leaving her out in the sun or worse
    [X] Agree to a mock battle before dawn which leaves Eiko 'unable' to aid the Will of Kakuri yet which leaves her in shape to recover rather than leaving her out in the sun or worse
    -[x]Stunt: Molly lights her sword with radioactive green fire. "Dodging my sword will require your full attention. I suggest that you don't let your focus stray because this sword cuts more than just flesh.". As she speaks Molly waves the sword back and forth drawing attention to it's deadly radiance.
    [x] No, it is not worth the risk of leaving such dangerous foes at your back, these akuma, like the others shall perish, unable to return to their master even in spirit
    [x] No, it is not worth the risk of leaving such dangerous foes at your back, these akuma, like the others shall perish, unable to return to their master even in spirit
    -[x][STUNT] That's it, that's all the information you're getting out of her, you realize, and that only leaves you with a decision to make. But while the show she's proposing would benefit her, it wouldn't benefit you to give any impression that victory against you is possible, and you don't want her master to get any ideas about trying this again. If she was actually repentant rather than greedy, or she had a workable plan, that would be one thing, but as it is… "sleep isn't for me, today," you say aloud as you draw your sword, "and you'll be beyond even that, when this ends. You should have taken your freedom when it was offered to you." A flare of anima and raised hellfire sword sets off the fire sprinklers before you charge into battle, Clippy having already sent the call to your reinforcements.
    -[x] use Melee Excellency and VLE
 
Catching up.
The problem is the competition. It's the existence of the Jades and the other three courts that mean that it's not free for Emma-O to keep akuma fed. Either they're undercover in wider Jade society, or someone will probably notice that 'their' mortal herd is being eaten by someone else, and violently object.
Akuma can feed off chi at the whim of their Yama King.
Including environmental chi.
If any Yama King was stockpiling akuma, he or she would have little trouble keeping them fed, availability of mortals or not.

COMMENTARY
Just going to say that if we're voting for this?
We kinda have to make it a priority to buy the lie detection charm by January, in addition to Hellscry Chakra.
Denizens of the Thousand Hells will happily lie to you if it suits their purposes.

Interesting.
We see Lydia's Authority of the Psychopomp finally kicking in.
Smiling Jack is the spider dude, the fixer? Young fixer seeing a big score, Im guessing. Very Needs of the Many kinda person, afaict.

The big problem is that we're going to burn through our resources.
Just as an aside, Emma-O's timeline is totally screwed up. The authors of the various books couldn't be bothered to do even basic research.

As a result, we have the statement that Emma-O was originally an Ainu deity who became a Yama King after his people were conquered and assimilated by the Yamato people. Now, that's fair enough, but the little detail they missed is that this conquest happened in the fourteenth century CE, not way back in pre-history, and their forcibly assimilation happened in the early nineteenth.

This would make Emma-O one of the more recent Yama Kings, probably a later arrival than Mikaboshi.
Unfortunately, we're also told that he was one of the ringleaders of the overthrow of Yen Lo back in the 3rd Age; and the greater akuma of his that defected did so in the thirteenth century.

You essentially can't reconcile it.
I think the mention of the mystery of his origin in the Bone Flowers Dharma book might be a allusion to this.
Of course you can. This is not a difficult issue.

SOLUTION
The 14th century subjugation of most of the remaining Ainu in Japan by the Yamato-jin was just the very last event in a sequence that assimilated or annihilated the Ainu in other parts of Japan, and over in Sakhalin. Before the Yayoi, it would have been other tribes of the Jomon period, most of which assimilated into the Yayoi, that became the Yamato-jin.

The way I reconcile it is 'history over supernatural' so it was done in the 14th century and he is recent. It's more interesting to me that he is a fallen god than him being old.
Even if you chose this? You have options.

The dates could be wrong.
His involvement in the murder of Yen Lo could well have been done before he became a Yama King, and might have even been a significant milestone in his fall into a Yama King.

Or Yen Lo might have survived well into the first millenium AD, one of a few, and his murder happened around the same time as the Faerie Courts taking over at the Outer Gates; I cant find a canon date for when he was killed. That allows you to have older servants of Kakuri walking around, instead of the oldest shikome being barely a couple hundred years old if he was recent.

Whats clear is Emma-O predates Mikaboshi; a fundamental aspect of their rivalry is based on Mikaboshi being the upstart newcomer.
Remember that even lesser akuma can quite easily have inhuman skill levels. Even a single investment can give four cap breaking dots in an ability, and a second two in an attribute. As the average akuma should have about nine investments, as that's required for them to lose their soul, then it would be quite normal for them, as even lesser akuma are usually recruited from Wan Kuei with a century of unlife, for a completely normal akuma to have a dice pool of fourteen, and so will have that level of skill.

Lesser akuma are only lesser compared to greater ones, each one is a high order supernatural. Even one that has invested moderately in combat is more than a match for most inexperienced Exalted. They're not mooks.
Uh, no.
Investments costs varying amounts of points depending on their value, and the akuma's skill and luck at bargaining.
Soul Points are 10*(lower of Hun or Willpower)

Hun Ratings
1 Unstable
2 Normal
3 Sensible
4 Wise
5 Sagacious
6+ Enlightened

The average Infernalist has 40-60 Soul Points at the beginning according to 1000 Hells.
Subtract 10 points for Mask of Yomi, and you have 30-50 points to play with, and bad negotiations will still cost you more points on top of that.Oh, and the akuma never knows how many soul points he has left at any time.

I think you're unlikely to have a lesser akuma running around with more than 3 or 4 permanent Investments.
Sure, you could hypothetically spec a lesser akuma to be a Hun/Willpower 9 abomination
But thats....implausible, shall we say.

Nor is there a guarantee those are combag-relevant Investments either.
You are not, but you do have a Coke bottle full of water on you.
No need.
We are in a hotel with a fire sprinkler system and cyberdevils in the computer systems.
Having them set off the sprinklers in the lobby should be straight forward.

Compounding that, we don't know what Emma-O's own backstory is. Unlike in vanilla Kijdred of the East, where Emma-O's fall, while tragic, is basically all his own fault, in ExWoD and so here it may not be. It's suggested that part of the reason Yomi Wan and by extension the Yama Kings are so messed up is that they're built/live in top of the cosmic waste dump the Infernal Exaltations were stored in, and the corrupt energies they were leaking is what corrupted Yomi Wan.
The other way around.

For canon ExWoD's backstory?
The Infernal Exaltations were supposed to have been buried in the most blighted parts of the Spirit World, and Yomi Wan was situated on top of it so that the weight would keep them down and hopefully the suffering would keep them sated.

Yes that is my point, she cares more about the power than redemption and you are ignoring the costs to others of her running around. She isn't going to just sit in a lab researching things, she is a significant agent of Emma-O, she is going to be carrying out his will and that means engaging in acts of cruelty and corruption.
I think the argument being made is that there is a chance of changing the regime of a major Hell back towards its statedintent
Potentially improving the lives of millions in the medium to lomgterm.
And thus the risk is worth it.

In ExWoD, Yomi is the mess it is because the Infernal Exaltations are buried beneath it. And yes, the influence goes both ways, but the Exaltations were there first and are why Yomi is Yomi. The particular Hells them influenced the way the Exaltations express themselves back. It's quite possibly a feedback loop.
This is inaccurate, as previously addressed.
 
I would say it happens in old buildings more. It's not like the Ceausescu Regime was worrying about fiber-optics when they were piping in the two daily hours of state TV in the 80s. That said newer buildings have their own issues.

Wild brewed napalm in the trash shoot?

Edit: Or is the proper English translation of that fuckery emergent napalm in the trash shoot? Eh. One or the other, do you people get them as well?
 
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Uh, no.
Investments costs varying amounts of points depending on their value, and the akuma's skill and luck at bargaining.
Soul Points are 10*(lower of Hun or Willpower)

Hun Ratings
1 Unstable
2 Normal
3 Sensible
4 Wise
5 Sagacious
6+ Enlightened

The average Infernalist has 40-60 Soul Points at the beginning according to 1000 Hells.
Subtract 10 points for Mask of Yomi, and you have 30-50 points to play with, and bad negotiations will still cost you more points on top of that.Oh, and the akuma never knows how many soul points he has left at any time.

I think you're unlikely to have a lesser akuma running around with more than 3 or 4 permanent Investments.
Sure, you could hypothetically spec a lesser akuma to be a Hun/Willpower 9 abomination
But thats....implausible, shall we say.

Nor is there a guarantee those are combag-relevant Investments either.

All lesser akuma have sold all their soul. That's what makes it possible to turn them into lesser akuma by compelling them to perform the Rite of Renunciation. Most of the investments and all the better ones cost five or six points. As a result they'll have six or seven of them on top of mask of Yomi, as they'll have spent all their soul points. When bargaining they can also get cheaper investments if they make a good deal, so it should roughly net out.

Then, after they become lesser akuma they are then given as many additional investments as the Yama King pleases to best suit their mission, with no limits at all. It's apparently common for them to be given multiple iterations of Touch of the Yama Kings.
 
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Ugh, and we're going along with this madness. Uuuuggggghhhhh.

And now we're going to leave people to think that you can mess with us and get away with it even when we bring the calvary coming with all of our scrounged up favors and allies, completely undermining the message we were supposed to be sending. Why.

Where was peoples' righteous anger over what happened to our people? Where was the vengeance over Adam's death? The indignation over the woman and her baby? The determination to send a message so that this never happens again?

Whatever, people want to make bad decisions, fine. Let the unrepentant monster with a sob story and a half-baked plan go. Whatever.
 
Nitpick: Fire sprinklers are purely mechanically activated, via an internal part which melts(?) or breaks above a certain temperature.
Yep, that is how they generally function. I wouldn't rule out the existence of fire sprinkler systems controlled by a central computer system, though I've never heard of them before, at least not IRL. And if they do actually exist, they almost certainly wouldn't be found in a hotel, even a high end luxury one, considering how much even a standard sprinkler system costs to install in a large building.

The prices eye watering, according to what I've heard from my sister who sales them for a living.
 
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