Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

[Mizu]

Spoiler: some errors

Nodding back, James smiled slightly, "Likewise. Names James Thompson, mind if I ask what you were doing?"

Click to shrink...

Name's James

Even though James knew not everything was known about that yet,enough had come out, clearly.

Click to shrink...

that yet, enough had come out

Had something happened? Shewas being refit, on some level.

Click to shrink...

She was being refit

*knows nothing about who this is*

Why can't you do him justice?

Click to shrink...

I would imagine the author means they can't use an actual half-Japanese historical person and hope to get them accurate, in comparison to an OC or American.

 

[Anti-No]

Realistically, what can he do?

I mean, if you can think of something that an Admiral in the USN could do about that, I'd honestly like to know because I got nothin'.

Click to shrink...

Japanese Internment in World War II

**********************************************************************
Why Were the Camps Established?

Roosevelt's executive order was fueled by anti-Japanese sentiment among farmers who competed against Japanese labor, politicians who sided with anti-Japanese constituencies, and the general public, whose frenzy was heightened by the Japanese attack of Pearl Harbor. More than two-thirds of the Japanese who were interned in the spring of 1942 were citizens of the United States.
**********************************************************************

The farming thing, Thompson can do nothing about. The frenzy, however? That he can do something about. As I see it, USA was basically given a black eye and hit back in any and every way it could - including very undeserving targets. Is that bad form? Yes. There is a reason it's a black mark on USA's reputation.

There are a few things Thompson can do - it's just that most of those things are things he should not do. He could try a 'heart and minds' campaign in the newspapers, and most probably be kicked off the fleet for 'enemy sympathizing'. He could make the spark less rage-inducing - in other words, make Pearl Harbor less of a curbstomp against the USA. He could write something to the papers - or better, see if he could get some reporter to write a series of articles about how the camps in China show the true colors of the Japaneese empire. A connection between 'internment camps' and 'black hats', and less initial rage might indeed change things, as there will be a lot less - possibly even negative political coin to be made from setting up internment camps for american citizens that way.

Even when someone later on finds that an 'Admiral Thompson' is behind those articles, really, what is the problem? An admiral in the USN is showing the people of the USA what makes their enemies Villains. Admiralty board: "Excellent work. Keep it up."

 

[MadGreenSon]

Japanese Internment in World War II

**********************************************************************
Why Were the Camps Established?

Roosevelt's executive order was fueled by anti-Japanese sentiment among farmers who competed against Japanese labor, politicians who sided with anti-Japanese constituencies, and the general public, whose frenzy was heightened by the Japanese attack of Pearl Harbor. More than two-thirds of the Japanese who were interned in the spring of 1942 were citizens of the United States.
**********************************************************************

The farming thing, Thompson can do nothing about. The frenzy, however? That he can do something about. As I see it, USA was basically given a black eye and hit back in any and every way it could - including very undeserving targets. Is that bad form? Yes. There is a reason it's a black mark on USA's reputation.

There are a few things Thompson can do - it's just that most of those things are things he should not do. He could try a 'heart and minds' campaign in the newspapers, and most probably be kicked off the fleet for 'enemy sympathizing'. He could make the spark less rage-inducing - in other words, make Pearl Harbor less of a curbstomp against the USA. He could write something to the papers - or better, see if he could get some reporter to write a series of articles about how the camps in China show the true colors of the Japaneese empire. A connection between 'internment camps' and 'black hats', and less initial rage might indeed change things, as there will be a lot less - possibly even negative political coin to be made from setting up internment camps for american citizens that way.

Click to shrink...

He also needs to be careful, he's overreached himself once and likely hasn't seen the last of it. Going further could get him in a very bad position indeed.

 

[Anti-No]

Very much so, yes.

 

[Skywalker_T-65]

*knows nothing about who this is*

Why can't you do him justice?

Click to shrink...

Well, what I meant there was even if I could find the CAG of the time (which I couldn't) it would be quite likely there isn't enough information on him to get a personality from. I prefer, when writing historical characters, to have enough personality on them to not butcher them. It's one thing to butcher a fictional character that is thin on characterization. Entirely different for a real person.

Maybe that's just me.

hmn, i know the focus is going to be navy, but maybe our admiral might consider doing something about the utter travesty that was the internment of japanese americans?

Click to shrink...

I'm sure he'd love to do something about. Just like he'd love to not have to fight the war in the first place. But, just as with that:

Realistically, what can he do?

I mean, if you can think of something that an Admiral in the USN could do about that, I'd honestly like to know because I got nothin'.

Click to shrink...

^This, is a valid point.

Spoiler: some errors

Name's James

that yet, enough had come out

She was being refit

I would imagine the author means they can't use an actual half-Japanese historical person and hope to get them accurate, in comparison to an OC or American.

Click to shrink...

Yes, this too.

Japanese Internment in World War II

**********************************************************************
Why Were the Camps Established?

Roosevelt's executive order was fueled by anti-Japanese sentiment among farmers who competed against Japanese labor, politicians who sided with anti-Japanese constituencies, and the general public, whose frenzy was heightened by the Japanese attack of Pearl Harbor. More than two-thirds of the Japanese who were interned in the spring of 1942 were citizens of the United States.
**********************************************************************

The farming thing, Thompson can do nothing about. The frenzy, however? That he can do something about. As I see it, USA was basically given a black eye and hit back in any and every way it could - including very undeserving targets. Is that bad form? Yes. There is a reason it's a black mark on USA's reputation.

There are a few things Thompson can do - it's just that most of those things are things he should not do. He could try a 'heart and minds' campaign in the newspapers, and most probably be kicked off the fleet for 'enemy sympathizing'. He could make the spark less rage-inducing - in other words, make Pearl Harbor less of a curbstomp against the USA. He could write something to the papers - or better, see if he could get some reporter to write a series of articles about how the camps in China show the true colors of the Japaneese empire. A connection between 'internment camps' and 'black hats', and less initial rage might indeed change things, as there will be a lot less - possibly even negative political coin to be made from setting up internment camps for american citizens that way.

Even when someone later on finds that an 'Admiral Thompson' is behind those articles, really, what is the problem? An admiral in the USN is showing the people of the USA what makes their enemies Villains. Admiralty board: "Excellent work. Keep it up."

Click to shrink...

Hmm.

 

[Mercenary]

He could write something to the papers

Click to shrink...

"Perhaps we should round up the Mexicans next. After all they were asked to join against us the last time around. Or the French, they've fallen to the German war machine. And how! How can we forget the Germans.

The enemy is here on the homefront. If the American people want to know who, you need only to look into the mirror."

Or something like that.

 

[Skychan]

"Perhaps we should round up the Mexicans next. After all they were asked to join against us the last time around. Or the French, they've fallen to the German war machine. And how! How can we forget the Germans.

The enemy is here on the homefront. If the American people want to know who, you need only to look into the mirror."

Or something like that.

Click to shrink...

That's a great way to be relieved of command. True but unfortunate. I may have to do some more research, but I know that we did intern more than just the Japanese. Notably Italians were included, and I'll have to check on the rest.

 

[Nicholas]

We already interned the Germans during World War One.

 

[Suryn]

Well, what I meant there was even if I could find the CAG of the time (which I couldn't) it would be quite likely there isn't enough information on him to get a personality from. I prefer, when writing historical characters, to have enough personality on them to not butcher them. It's one thing to butcher a fictional character that is thin on characterization. Entirely different for a real person.

Maybe that's just me.

Click to shrink...

Thats a perfectly fair opinion to have.

 

[Dark Mage]

Japanese Internment in World War II

**********************************************************************
Why Were the Camps Established?

Snip

Click to shrink...

There is a bit more then that, especially for Hawaii. Right after Pearl Harbor there was the Ni'ihau Incident.

A Japanese pilot landed on Ni'ihau after his aircraft was damaged during the attack. After landing he was helped by a Japanese immigrant and two Japanese-Americans. In the end the pilot was killed, a native injured, and one Japanese-American committed suicide.

Follow link for more info: Ni'ihau Incident

This helped in the justification to intern Japanese-Americans during the war.

 

[Firefinder12-B]

One thing you all have to remember about those camps.

They were camps in name only, they got power, plumbing and everything they need. They were basically gated communities.

We took care of them.

Unlike say what what happened in Japan or germany.

Did they go hunger? Yes cause of rationing and they were low on the totem pole of the supply chain.

It also says something that their wasn't one Japanese American traitor during the war. If my source is right.

But that doesn't mean that the camps were a good idea. Cause they wasnt.

I just saying that out camps had far better conditions then other countries camps.

 

[Skywalker_T-65]

In totally unrelated news, I found this while I was looking stuff up for the chapter:



That's apparently Texas and Arky (Arkansas). Now, I knew the former would be bigger. One less turret or not, she uses 14-inchers against Arky's 12-inchers. But the difference is a lot bigger than I thought, no pun intended.

Now, imagine this. Utah is even smaller than Arky, and Ari is bigger than Texas- even if not by much. Utah is such a small momboat. Comparatively speaking, at least.

 

[Skychan]

One thing you all have to remember about those camps.

They were camps in name only, they got power, plumbing and everything they need. They were basically gated communities.

We took care of them.

Unlike say what what happened in Japan or germany.

Did they go hunger? Yes cause of rationing and they were low on the totem pole of the supply chain.

It also says something that their wasn't one Japanese American traitor during the war. If my source is right.

But that doesn't mean that the camps were a good idea. Cause they wasnt.

I just saying that out camps had far better conditions then other countries camps.

Click to shrink...

I agree with your final line, but don't try to sugar coat it too much. It certainly wasn't as nice as your first line would imply.

 

[Old Iron]

Chapter 12:
​

"I will never get used to this..."

Wandering through Honolulu, listening to the bustle of people, was not something that James had expected to spend doing. But, well, it was necessary. He had been spending entirely too much time cooped up in his room. Not that he minded spending time talking with Sara and the others, mind you. He quite enjoyed it actually. But spending all his time doing that was asking for trouble. Especially now...now that he couldn't realistically risk just talking with the girls over the radio. He had known it would happen, from the moment the first reports came in. But it hardly made it any easier on him, really.

After all, he could only really relate to the girls. Everyone else he was around, reminded him of the time he had ended up in.

Not that wandering through the city itself didn't, of course. The Honolulu he remembered was absolutely nothing like the one he had found himself in. Granted, the city he remembered was a ghost town. Shattered buildings and all. Abyssal raids on Hawaii had been so common, the islands had been evacuated long ago. Honolulu had been gutted. Seeing it full of people, carefree and happy, was not something he was used to. Toss in the lack of glittering skyscrapers- burnt and damaged or otherwise -and it was...an odd experience. Very odd.

At least I know what I'm fighting for, seeing this.

With that in mind, he started looking around for something to do. Didn't take long either.

"Papers! Papers here!"

Considering his green eyes locked onto an honest to God paper boy. Shaking his head in amazement at the novelty of it all, James followed along with the small group moving towards the kid. A kid who looked up at him with clear awe that an officer was getting his paper. At least Thompson hadn't gone out with anything marking him as an Admiral.

"Five cents, sir."

"Here you are."

Handing over a nickel, and reminding himself that was a lot more than it was when he came from, the Admiral took his paper. Moving aside so others could do the same, he sat down on a nearby bench. Unfurling the paper, James looked at the date. September 24th, 1940.

Hmm...anything special happen today?

Nothing came to mind, as he looked to see how much the events meshed with his memories. There was the expected 'homefront' things. Sports and all that, nothing that really caught his interest. What did catch his interest was a certain foreign affairs event. One that had his hands clenching the paper, as he cursed under his breath. No one noticed, and the Admiral was thankful for that. He didn't want to explain his reaction.

He couldn't, reasonably.

"Embargo...it's just steel so far, but..." Thompson forced his hands to relax, taking in a deep breath. Calming himself in a way taught by...Akagi...the man sighed softly. "This is not good. I knew it was coming, but this is the first step."

The first step towards the attack he was trying to prepare for. Would Japan and America have come to blows anyway? Perhaps. But the embargoes speeded up the problem...without imports, Japan would crawl to a halt. Militarily and on the homefront. It was necessary of course, with what they did in China. But...

"Great. It's only a matter of time now..."

"Matter of time?"

James blinked, turning his head. A young Japanese-American man was staring at him curiously, not a hint of awe or fear at approaching an officer. He could give the man that at least.

"Nothing, just reading the paper." James put said paper under his arm, as he looked at the younger man. "Do I know you?"

The man shook his head, "No sir. Sorry for bothering you, I was just wondering since you looked...angry."

"Well, there is nothing to worry about Mr..."

"Iwata, Riku Iwata." The man, Iwata, bowed slightly. "It is a pleasure."

Nodding back, James smiled slightly, "Likewise. Names James Thompson, mind if I ask what you were doing?"

His new acquaintance smiled back, "As I said, I noticed you were angry and was curious about why. I myself am a fair bit upset at the embargo. I understand it, and as I was born here in Hawaii I can't say it impacts me as much as my parents, but..."

The Japanese-American civilian trailed off, perhaps realizing who he was talking to.

"My apologies, sir."

"No need for that," James waved his hand. "I understand what you mean. Sometimes we have to do things we don't like, and with what is happening in China..."

Both men winced at that thought. Frankly, if you weren't a militaristic nutjob what the Japanese got up to in China was deplorable. Even though James knew not everything was known about that yet,enough had come out, clearly. It was enough to remind him of why he did what he did, at least. Sometimes it was hard to think of Japan as the enemy. He had many Japanese friends, it came with spending so much time in Japan. But when even the Japanese-Americans knew that what Japan did in this day and age was wrong, well...it spoke much of the nation.

Pushing those thoughts away, James sighed. He didn't need to think of that right now. Right now, was time spent relaxing. He couldn't leave port until Admiral Richardson had the torpedo tests set up, so best to spend his time on something not related to the inevitable war.

In that line of thought...

"Enough about that though." The Admiral looked at the other man. "Do you mind showing me around town? I haven't spent much time off the ship, lately."

"Certainly." Iwata replied with a short nod of his head. "What ship, if you don't mind me asking?"

James may have been a bit trusting, but he was no fool. He shook his head, "Sorry, can't tell you that."

"Ah. Understandable, I suppose." Iwata didn't seem all that put out, as he started walking down the street. "Operation security?"

"Exactly. You have family in the military?"

A smile crossed the other man's face, "My cousin serves aboard one of Japan's carriers. I'm sure you understand why I can't say which one."

Oh, he has a sense of humor.

"And yes, we do keep in contact." The younger man continued, with his smile not fading. "Though his letters have been a bit sparse, as of late. With the war..."

"I can imagine." Thompson nodded back, "Still, I hope he's okay. We aren't enemies yet, and I hope we never are."

"As does my family. I...don't like the idea, of our family back home being an enemy."

That was the problem with war. And most especially this war. Loyalties...loyalties could tear families apart. Japanese-Americans were almost universally loyal to America, and that meant they would be in conflict with their homelands. With their families, back home. That was almost a uniquely American problem, as few other nations had such a varied immigrant population. And James couldn't say he understood it, having not lived through any proper war, beyond the Abyssals.

Still, moving past that...

"Well, I'm sure we all hope a war doesn't come." The Admiral nodded at the younger man by his side. "So, how about we keep that in mind?"

Iwata didn't dispute the point, "Quite. Now, here is the most popular restaurant in town. I would recommend it, if you haven't eaten yet."

As James' stomach chose that very moment to growl, he could hardly dispute the point. Iwata's lips twitched upwards, as the Japanese-American waved at the door. Thompson sent him a thankful look, to which the man responded with a small shrug. He left the Admiral at the door, likely off to do...whatever he had been doing. Watching him go, James sighed softly.

That had been...enlightening.

I need to remember, just how the war impacts everyone. I focus too much on my girls, I know that. I forget about the civilians. The ones who are hurt by the war, even if not directly. Lord, I wish I could stop it entirely.

Even as he sat down, his order taken by a waitress, James sighed again. He knew just as well that it was far too late to stop a war. Even if he had been shot back to 1938 or something, that would be true. The events leading to this war were already in place. Japan was going to invade China. They were going to be embargoed. And they were going to attack America. There...just wasn't anything he could do to stop that. It was why he focused so heavily on the attack coming to this city.

It was all he could do, to avoid thinking of the rest of the war.

"Here you are, sir."

Drawn from his thoughts, James smiled up at the young waitress, as she left to take another order. His appetite wasn't quite as strong, but he still dug into the food. Iwata had been right about one thing...this was good food. And it served to get his mind off what he had been thinking, as the Admiral looked around. He couldn't fail to notice there were no African-Americans in the building. Nor were there many women, outside the waitresses. Stifling a sigh, he acknowledged that it was to be expected, even if he didn't like it.

As such, Thompson continued to scan the room. At least, until he saw another officer enter. The younger man, blond hair cut short, locked onto the Admiral. He ignored the waitress, instead coming straight to the older officer. James frowned at that, as he made room for the officer. The man sent him a thankful look, even as he sat down. Even as he looked at the Admiral, question quite obvious.

"Yes?" Still, James asked first.

"Admiral Thompson, correct?"

"That's me. You are?"

If they were on duty, it wouldn't be anywhere near this informal. But formality had a time and place.

"Lieutenant Commander John Baxter, CAG off Enterprise." The younger man, Baxter, replied. "I was hoping to talk with you."

Well now. I would have expected Yorktown's CAG, if anyone.

"About what?" Thompson was curious now, as he looked at the younger officer.

Baxter smiled slightly, "The new tactics you've introduced. Lieutenant Commander Brown told me about them, and how badly your pilots mauled his. I would like to see exactly what you taught your boys, so I can do the same."

On the plus side, at least word was spreading. If this word got back to the States, Ranger, Wasp and- when she was complete -Hornet would benefit as well. That was his goal. Or, at least one of them. That thought in mind, James waved over the waitress. After paying for his lunch, inwardly amazed at the price once more, he nodded at Baxter. The other man nodded back, both officers walking back onto the streets of Honolulu. Once outside, James turned back to his younger counterpart, as both men moved towards the Harbor.

"So, you want to know more?"

"I do. It's in everyone's best interests that we are all as prepared as we can be." Baxter sighed, looking up at the sky. "Even if we don't end up fighting, better to be prepared. After the whacking you gave Yorktown, I'm not inclined to risk my boys. So I want to know anything you can teach us."

"That, I can do." James nodded seriously. "That I can do."

Baxter nodded back, "And thank you for that, Admiral. I don't know where you came up with these, but they'll be a big help. Anything else you have up your sleeve?"

Many things, that I can't tell you.

"Not right now, no."

The Lieutenant Commander smiled, as he shook his head, "Worth a shot. Well, hopefully you can get my boys in top shape. If we go against you in a fleet problem, I won't have them losing."

"Nor will I have mine lose."

Somehow, James got the feeling it was only because he was an Admiral that the other man didn't break out laughing at that statement. Rivalries between ships were the bread and butter of the Navy, after all.

Still, at least we are moving forward. I can take what I get, at this point...

Click to shrink...

I think it's parts like this that really hammer down what era Thompson is in now. The segregation bit stood out probably more than I realized at first. And the difference in monetary value compared to today.

The talk between him and the civilian was rather eye opening. The divides that the war will create and the knowledge of the horrors in China. I think Thompson is going to need some time to process this and what he can do with that. If anything. But he's running out of time as well. Man...

And Little E's CAG is asking questions. Methinks history is going to take a sharp turn sooner than later.

"Can you all hear me?"

"Yes!"

"I can."

"Same here."

"Loud and clear!"

Saratoga smiled softly, as she looked down at her lap. She was acting on her own initiative again, her Admiral still on land. But...she was working to help him! In fact, that was the entire reason she was talking with the other capital ships. Arizona. Utah, if only for her wisdom. Yorktown. Enterprise. She hadn't contacted the other battleships, and her sister already knew the reason for this. But these four...they needed to know what she wanted to do. How they could all help her Admiral.

Sara knew. She knew that Admiral Thompson was running himself dry. She appreciated everything he was doing to help them all, but she worried all the same. This time ashore was going to do wonders for the man, but that didn't mean she couldn't do her best to make it easier on him anyway. She was loyal, and liked to think they were friends. And friends helped each other, even if the very notion of doing so was still very new to her.

So help him she would.

"Arizona, you mentioned that your Admiral is unhappy?" Sara began, focusing on what she knew.

"He...is not happy, at all." The normally cheerful battleship sounded more subdued than usual. "He doesn't like the idea that carriers should take over. I understand, but I don't think he does."

"I do not entirely understand myself." Utah chimed in.

"You don't?"

"No...I understand that Admiral Thompson knows far more, but it is hard to reconcile that with all the time I've served. Don't mind me, Arizona. I do agree with him."

Sara smiled, the byplay reminding her of talking with Langley, "At any rate, this is a problem. We need to prepare, my Admiral made that clear. How do we help him?"

"Talking with our crews is one way." Yorktown suggested.

"I have been trying that since the moment Admiral Thompson arrived. It has yet to work."

A soft hum came from Enterprise at that, "Have you tried everything yet? I'm sure you can think of something!"

Another smile came from Sara upon hearing the younger carrier. Little E always was one to talk like that. Give her a problem, and she'd do everything she could to win. She loved impressing her elders.

"That is one thing we can do. I would also suggest we talk about tactics. The more we think, the more we can help Admiral Thompson. Any ideas?"

I sound like the Admiral...

Stifling a giggle at the thought, Sara focused on the conversation. Each of the girls were bouncing ideas off the other, as they planned. Utah was invaluable, her experience and time as a training ship making her uniquely suited to this. She could take a suggestion and look it over, improving and discarding where needed. Ari's enthusiasm lead to many suggestions, though her own relative lack of experience meant they were discarded more often than not. But where the truly valuable suggestions came from?

Yorktown and Enterprise. The sisters spoke almost in unison at times, each of them making suggestions that sounded like they came from Admiral Thompson himself. The ideas had Sara making mental notes to tell her Admiral when he returned. Perhaps, as young carriers, they were able to adapt to the new reality better. Regardless, Sara valued what they had.

"I know!" Little E piped up.

"Yes?"

"What if we mix our formations? Have my fighters escort big sis' bombers? Or vice-versa?"

Sara nodded, "We tried that ourselves. Lieutenant Commander Thach did a very good job covering my sisters' planes."

"So it works?"

"It works, Little E."

"Great! Then we should try that. I want to see how well it works with Yorktown."

"So do I. Still want to pay you two back for beating me twice!" Yorktown, for her part, sounded just as competitive as ever.

Smiling, Sara shook her head in amusement, "Yes, well, I'm sure we can try that. I'll let my Admiral know."

Tuning out the resulting noise from the younger carriers, Sister Sara focused back on the battleships.

"Do you have any more ideas, Utah? Arizona?"

"Just one, really." Arizona replied. "We're slow, but you can put a lot of guns on us. Would refitting us as escorts work? At least for operations where we can keep up!"

"I'm not a combat ship, Arizona..." Utah pointed out.

"But..."

"I'm fine with training..."

Saratoga frowned, as the old battleship trailed off, "Utah?"

There was no response, as even the Yorktown sisters stopped talking. Sara bit her lip, worry taking over her previous good feelings. Why had Utah stopped talking? Had something happened? Shewas being refit, on some level. Maybe she had to conserve energy? That would make a certain amount of sense at least, and was better than the other options. Still...it worried her, that the battleship had gone silent. Sara was a worrier, at the best of times.

This was not the best of times.

"My apologies." Utah finally spoke up, getting a sigh of relief from the blue-haired carrier. "My radio operator has become quite good at noticing when we talk like this. As is my new Captain...I think he may hear me, more than my last one."

"Can you talk to him?"

"I am about to try. Do you need me for anything else?"

Sara shook her head, aware it couldn't be seen, "Of course not! If you think you can talk to him, please try. If we can talk to our Captains..."

"Everything will change."

Utah's line went silent, as the battleship went to try again. Sara sighed softly, as she continued to make plans with the remaining girls. If Utah could pull off the impossible...well, they would all be better off. She could only hope...hope that the old battleship could do it.

If she can, we have a way to truly help my Admiral.

Click to shrink...

Don't give up everyone. Through hard work and perseverance, you can move mountains. Or send your CO's to the psych ward.

I really like the idea of the girls thinking up plans to better themselves to deal with the coming changes in warfare. Here's hoping they don't fall flat on their faces.

Re: Enterprise's CAG

I try to use historical figures, where possible. This is one of the cases where I can't, at least with any level of justice given to the person in question. So OC time, at least for now.

Click to shrink...

Makes sense. A real person with little to no personal information (if we even have a real name) versus an OC who can better suit your purposes without causing real people interpretation problems.

Very nice chapter. Very nice indeed.

Japanese Internment in World War II

**********************************************************************
Why Were the Camps Established?

Roosevelt's executive order was fueled by anti-Japanese sentiment among farmers who competed against Japanese labor, politicians who sided with anti-Japanese constituencies, and the general public, whose frenzy was heightened by the Japanese attack of Pearl Harbor. More than two-thirds of the Japanese who were interned in the spring of 1942 were citizens of the United States.
**********************************************************************

The farming thing, Thompson can do nothing about. The frenzy, however? That he can do something about. As I see it, USA was basically given a black eye and hit back in any and every way it could - including very undeserving targets. Is that bad form? Yes. There is a reason it's a black mark on USA's reputation.

There are a few things Thompson can do - it's just that most of those things are things he should not do. He could try a 'heart and minds' campaign in the newspapers, and most probably be kicked off the fleet for 'enemy sympathizing'. He could make the spark less rage-inducing - in other words, make Pearl Harbor less of a curbstomp against the USA. He could write something to the papers - or better, see if he could get some reporter to write a series of articles about how the camps in China show the true colors of the Japaneese empire. A connection between 'internment camps' and 'black hats', and less initial rage might indeed change things, as there will be a lot less - possibly even negative political coin to be made from setting up internment camps for american citizens that way.

Even when someone later on finds that an 'Admiral Thompson' is behind those articles, really, what is the problem? An admiral in the USN is showing the people of the USA what makes their enemies Villains. Admiralty board: "Excellent work. Keep it up."

Click to shrink...

That's... huge. The effect on... everything could be tremendous. Wow.

 

[obssesednuker]

Yeah. Internment is going to be a notable slap in the face for James if he befriends local Japanese-Americans.

 

[Chloe Sullivan]

One thing you all have to remember about those camps.

They were camps in name only, they got power, plumbing and everything they need. They were basically gated communities.

We took care of them.

Unlike say what what happened in Japan or germany.

Did they go hunger? Yes cause of rationing and they were low on the totem pole of the supply chain.

It also says something that their wasn't one Japanese American traitor during the war. If my source is right.

But that doesn't mean that the camps were a good idea. Cause they wasnt.

I just saying that out camps had far better conditions then other countries camps.

Click to shrink...

the internment camps were better than aushwitz, to be sure, but that's a kinda low bar, given that any camp without gas chambers for mass executions is an improvement on aushwitz.

Also, it's easier to provide decent conditions when your country can provide it's own food domestically and isn't being regularly bombed. yet even then we managed to have some pretty shitty conditions at some of the camps.

while there was some interning of italians, it was only a few that were for whatever reason seen as a security risk. the words "look, we can't lock up Joe DiMaggio" were used, IIRC.

The big issue with internment is not the conditions but that is was unconstitutional. Many of the people being locked up were US citizens denied due process solely on the basis of their ethnic background. Both the president (clinton, iirc) and the supreme court have subsequently admitted that the whole thing was a gross violation of both people's rights and the ideals that america supposedly holds dear, driven not even by legitimate security concerns but by plain old racism.

 

[Aires Drake]

Yeah. Internment is going to be a notable slap in the face for James if he befriends local Japanese-Americans.

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As a side note, very few of the Japanese-descent population of the Hawaiian Islands were interred due to the distance of shipping required to remove them from the islands. Still caused a lot of resentment in those islands though.

 

[Aldon]

That's apparently Texas and Arky (Arkansas). Now, I knew the former would be bigger. One less turret or not, she uses 14-inchers against Arky's 12-inchers. But the difference is a lot bigger than I thought, no pun intended.

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That is a horrible camera angle for size comparison. The water in Arkansas's lock is lower and she's further back making her look a lot smaller than she actually is. Once you account for the height difference in the water they're pretty much the same size. Arkansas being a couple of metres smaller.

 

[00Zy99]

As a side note, very few of the Japanese-descent population of the Hawaiian Islands were interred due to the distance of shipping required to remove them from the islands. Still caused a lot of resentment in those islands though.

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Sadly, a bigger reason was apparently that Japanese labor was used for picking a lot of crops in Hawaii. Without these immigrants, the Hawaiian economy would suffer. So the planters blocked that move.

 

[Aires Drake]

Sadly, a bigger reason was apparently that Japanese labor was used for picking a lot of crops in Hawaii. Without these immigrants, the Hawaiian economy would suffer. So the planters blocked that move.

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Still Economics basically, but yeah.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

the internment camps were better than aushwitz, to be sure, but that's a kinda low bar, given that any camp without gas chambers for mass executions is an improvement on aushwitz.

Also, it's easier to provide decent conditions when your country can provide it's own food domestically and isn't being regularly bombed. yet even then we managed to have some pretty shitty conditions at some of the camps.

while there was some interning of italians, it was only a few that were for whatever reason seen as a security risk. the words "look, we can't lock up Joe DiMaggio" were used, IIRC.

The big issue with internment is not the conditions but that is was unconstitutional. Many of the people being locked up were US citizens denied due process solely on the basis of their ethnic background. Both the president (clinton, iirc) and the supreme court have subsequently admitted that the whole thing was a gross violation of both people's rights and the ideals that america supposedly holds dear, driven not even by legitimate security concerns but by plain old racism.

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It wasn't entirely irrational--for example, there was a Japanese-American at Pearl Harbor who acted as a spy and informed Japan of the composition of the fleet stationed at Pearl Harbor, kept them up to date on what ships were there, and what the defenses were like, etc. Combine that with the incident in which Japanese Americans aided a Japanese pilot from the Kido Butai who crashed at an island near Oahu--despite knowing that he was an enemy combatant who had just attacked the United States--and tried to help him secure his classified documents and hide himself, before a fight broke out.

Sure, these were isolated incidents--but they were all the fuel needed for the paranoia to take root. Remember, Pearl Harbor rattled America so badly that Yorktown was scrambled from her berth in the Atlantic while she was in the middle of a vital refit because they feared a German air attack on the Eastern United States. American survivors at Pearl Harbor were so shaken up that they repeatedly shot at anything that moved (that wasn't a full-blown American warship) even a full day after the attack had ended, including transport boats heading to and from American carriers. Despite enemy subs infesting the waters around Hawaii, the USN made sure to only have one carrier inside Pearl at a time, so as to not provide another target for the enemy to attack.

So it wasn't just racism--it was also sheer paranoia, fueled by a few genuine and clear incidents that lent actual credibility to those fears (even though the perception of their frequency was blown way out of proportion).

Frankly, there isn't anything Thompson can do to prevent it, aside from perhaps completely inadvertently preventing that second incident. Sticking his neck out like that would be a massive risk. And he's just an admiral--why would he have any say in the matter? Unless there is some clear, logical, and pressing tactical/strategic need, it's not his business. Besides, while the internment camps were bad, they were not lethal, cruel, or physically harmful. Of all the wartime injustices of WW2, that is one of the less critical ones. Thompson is going to be at sea and at war pretty much the whole time, anyway, unless Saratoga gets torpedoed again.

the internment camps were better than aushwitz, to be sure, but that's a kinda low bar, given that any camp without gas chambers for mass executions is an improvement on aushwitz.

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They were far better than any camp (including POW camps) in any Axis territory. If you think the gas chambers were the only things that made Aushwitz Hell on Earth, you're dead wrong.

Seriously, do not compare the Nazi concentration camps to the American and Canadian internment camps. This is serious fucking shit. The horrors of the Holocaust are not even remotely comparable to the internment camps. Aushwitz may have been one of the worst camps, but even the "best" concentration camp was still a death camp of systematic, inhumane, nightmarish cruelty.

 

[Chloe Sullivan]

It wasn't entirely irrational--for example, there was a Japanese-American at Pearl Harbor who acted as a spy and informed Japan of the composition of the fleet stationed at Pearl Harbor, kept them up to date on what ships were there, and what the defenses were like, etc.

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Source please? Because all the books i have read indicated that the japanese Embassy attaches just hired civilian pilots to take them up for pleasure tours that just happened to path near pearl and got all the photos they could want that way.

The actual intel assets who were American citizens that were run by imperial Japan were pretty much all white men, AFAIK. Not even many white men, or even high ranking ones, because US infosec was kinda crap back then, so it's not like they actually needed more spies.

Combine that with the incident in which Japanese Americans aided a Japanese pilot from the Kido Butai who crashed at an island near Oahu--despite knowing that he was an enemy combatant who had just attacked the United States--and tried to help him secure his classified documents and hide himself, before a fight broke out.

Sure, these were isolated incidents--but they were all the fuel needed for the paranoia to take root. Remember, Pearl Harbor rattled America so badly that Yorktown was scrambled from her berth in the Atlantic while she was in the middle of a vital refit because they feared a German air attack on the Eastern United States. American survivors at Pearl Harbor were so shaken up that they repeatedly shot at anything that moved (that wasn't a full-blown American warship) even a full day after the attack had ended, including transport boats heading to and from American carriers. Despite enemy subs infesting the waters around Hawaii, the USN made sure to only have one carrier inside Pearl at a time, so as to not provide another target for the enemy to attack.

So it wasn't just racism--it was also sheer paranoia, fueled by a few genuine and clear incidents that lent actual credibility to those fears (even though the perception of their frequency was blown way out of proportion).

Frankly, there isn't anything Thompson can do to prevent it, aside from perhaps completely inadvertently preventing that second incident. Sticking his neck out like that would be a massive risk. And he's just an admiral--why would he have any say in the matter? Unless there is some clear, logical, and pressing tactical/strategic need, it's not his business. Besides, while the internment camps were bad, they were not lethal, cruel, or physically harmful. Of all the wartime injustices of WW2, that is one of the less critical ones. Thompson is going to be at sea and at war pretty much the whole time, anyway, unless Saratoga gets torpedoed again.

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In Hawaii, you know, the place where actualfax japanese bombs fell on actualfax americans, they briefly removed all Japanese americans from military installations, as a precaution, and later interned certain civic leaders who they feared might have too many pro-japan sympathies.

But uhm, they had Japanese-American volunteers helping to do military labor within a few weeks, and never actually found it practical to lock up the Japanese on a large scale. Number of JA-related problems from this: 0.

Meanwhile, exactly what reason was there for locking up thousands of ordinary japanese workers, shopkeepers, and housewives in states that didn't even border the pacific?

Aside, that is, from Racism and Greed? No one was screaming that we had to lock up all the germans, even though we actually caught a fair number of ethnically german spies, IIRC.

I suggested the Nisei not because I though thompson could specifically fix that issue, but as a reminder that WWII had a lot of issues not directly related to combat.

Thompson has little influence... now. If he actually does end up leading Sara to victory somewhen, that's political capitol.

And the navy was, frankly, the most racist of the US military services by far at the time, so even something as simple as making sure the brave african-american mess stewards who did heroic things during the Pearl Harbor attack get more recognition could do a lot for people with a fair minimum of effort on Thompson's part. Brevet up a few black heroes in the heat of battle and you've just cracked a glass ceiling that's otherwise near impenetrable.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

Source please? Because all the books i have read indicated that the japanese Embassy attaches just hired civilian pilots to take them up for pleasure tours that just happened to path near pearl and got all the photos they could want that way.

The actual intel assets who were American citizens that were run by imperial Japan were pretty much all white men, AFAIK. Not even many white men, or even high ranking ones, because US infosec was kinda crap back then, so it's not like they actually needed more spies.



In Hawaii, you know, the place where actualfax japanese bombs fell on actualfax americans, they briefly removed all Japanese americans from military installations, as a precaution, and later interned certain civic leaders who they feared might have too many pro-japan sympathies.

But uhm, they had Japanese-American volunteers helping to do military labor within a few weeks, and never actually found it practical to lock up the Japanese on a large scale. Number of JA-related problems from this: 0.

Meanwhile, exactly what reason was there for locking up thousands of ordinary japanese workers, shopkeepers, and housewives in states that didn't even border the pacific?

Aside, that is, from Racism and Greed? No one was screaming that we had to lock up all the germans, even though we actually caught a fair number of ethnically german spies, IIRC.

I suggested the Nisei not because I though thompson could specifically fix that issue, but as a reminder that WWII had a lot of issues not directly related to combat.

Thompson has little influence... now. If he actually does end up leading Sara to victory somewhen, that's political capitol.

And the navy was, frankly, the most racist of the US military services by far at the time, so even something as simple as making sure the brave african-american mess stewards who did heroic things during the Pearl Harbor attack get more recognition could do a lot for people with a fair minimum of effort on Thompson's part. Brevet up a few black heroes in the heat of battle and you've just cracked a glass ceiling that's otherwise near impenetrable.

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I never said racism wasn't a factor. And there were thousands of German and Italian Americans put into internment camps. However, it's important to remember that Germany did not attack the United States itself. It certainly didn't do it in a traumatizing, shocking, and deceitful manner like the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Germany was viewed as a less immediate, less direct threat than Japan--that comes from what I mentioned above, yes, but also because Germany was engaged with Britain and the USSR, and it lacked a navy that could really fight in open battle.

As for German spies, it really wasn't much of a thing. Germany's spies in Britain and the US were pretty much all turned.

Thompson would need to achieve political capital on the level of Halsey before he could even think about taking such action on a social and government level. He'd be far better off putting that capital to use for military matters. Promoting black heroes in battle is one thing; tackling an executive order fueled by paranoia is another thing entirely.

 

[Chloe Sullivan]

I never said racism wasn't a factor. And there were thousands of German and Italian Americans put into internment camps. However, it's important to remember that Germany did not attack the United States itself. It certainly didn't do it in a traumatizing, shocking, and deceitful manner like the attack on Pearl Harbor.

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Look, the claim about the purpose of Executive order 9066 was that it was for security. Everything I brought up was to point out how bullshit that claim was. Proportion of Germans spies >>>>> Proportion of Japanese Spies (we have confirmation of exactly 0 of these). Proportion of Japanese internment >>>>>>>>>> Proportion of German internment.

It's not paranoia. Actual paranoia would also include "holy shit, german spies, lock up all the germans!." No, it's just racism over yellow peril stereotypes.

Germany was viewed as a less immediate, less direct threat than Japan--that comes from what I mentioned above, yes, but also because Germany was engaged with Britain and the USSR, and it lacked a navy that could really fight in open battle.

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Bullshit. The US entered WWII with orders from the very top that the policy was "Germany First" because enemy white dudes were seen as more dangerous than enemy slant eyed dudes. (You know, because of racism. It was kinda all-pervasive back then.)

Nimitz then said "Screw this shit, i'm going to seize the initiative back in the pacific because letting the IJN run around doing whatever it wants is stupid, and I have perfectly functional aircraft carriers and submarines to make use of." Well, no he didn't actually *say* that because the guy was just too polite, but that's basically what he went out and did. He had to do a lot of basically very polite arguing to get King on board, and King basically gave more than a few people in DC the middle finger to cover for Nimitz. Because even after Pearl, a lot of Americana didn't take the Japanese seriously the way they did the Nazis

As for German spies, it really wasn't much of a thing. Germany's spies in Britain and the US were pretty much all turned.

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Look, when you have dozens of german spies and no japanese spies you have found, saying that you locked up almost all the japanese and only a small portion of the germans for "security reasons" starts to sound a little funny.


Trying to explain it away as "paranoia" is Whitewashing. They weren't even particularly trying very hard to hide the fact that they were motivated primarily by racist narratives at the time, so I dunno why you feel compelled to excuse them.

Thompson would need to achieve political capital on the level of Halsey before he could even think about taking such action on a social and government level. He'd be far better off putting that capital to use for military matters. Promoting black heroes in battle is one thing; tackling an executive order fueled by paranoia is another thing entirely.

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again, it was meant to be a though provoking example, not a proposed course of action.

 

[Anti-No]

If it ever comes to said executive order actually getting issued, then it is far too late for Thompson to even think about acting against it.

A potential problem with Thompsons current plan, of course, is the following: Would the USA take Japan seriously as an enemy and rouse itself against it without the Pearl Harbor curbstomp? Possibly. Maybe. But its not certain. On the other hand, if he keeps going 'what if's', then he will get completely paralyzed by indecisiveness. Effective hangar ships (already working on this) and 'not sunk fleets' (crossing fingers) would probably compensate for A LOT.

If he could just make it so that the static or land based defences of Pearl Harbor made it so that actually going out to meet an attacker in deep waters would be an obviously stupid move...