That isn't what I meant but thank you for the defense. To be honest the "SV has a odd problem" thread has just made me quite paranoid about some things relating to writing on this site. The repeated deflections defensiveness anger and bitterness that was presented as a response to the call for better representation left me quite... thoughtful.
Thank you so much for your honesty and courage to come forward and say something. I really apprciate the gesture. I know that it's a complicated issue and I don' want to write off anyone's feelings. And I hope more people can come and share their experiences.
I'll admit i avoid guyXguy parings, but that's only because I have no interest in any of the pairings whenever I see a fic about it. If you were to have Shinji with Tapris(can't remember how to spell is other name) or Kozo/Kaji I wouldn't have any strong feelings to it other then "damn, no Shinji/Rei or 123". Not sure if this is really contributing to the discussion or if it will offend someone, and if I do I am sorry, but I always thought if you don't like something in a fic strong enough to avoid it, then it just ain't worth it to kick up the kind of fuss that pop up when things like this are taken issue with.
Your not setting fires. Your speaking honestly which is really what I always hoped for when it came to this. Thank you for your input.
Tabris, Kaworu's angelic name is Tabris. The idea of Kaworu as a tapir does make me giggle more then it should however.
Thank you for your input. But now you have distracted me by making me think of Harry Potter and Eva... Are the Eva's horcruxes? Why do I suddenly want to see Harry and Ginny dance in synch? Or more relevant to this thread will Mari weep as she tells Shinji he has his mother's eyes?
Except Shinji x everyone End of eva and the tang sea made that one canon.
But I get what you are saying. And I can only hope that I can provide the reasons necessary for you to be satisfied. Though I admit I started the Maya x Kodama subplot mostly on a whim and that seems fine so far.
And yet you showed the simple "why": Maya thought she was cute, we know next to nothing about Kodama giving you a ton of room to work with, and things went from there. Bam! Narrative reasoning, plot holds up. If you started off with them being a thing, then there'd be the questions of how/why.
That there is vastly less backlash against f/f is true even when it is visible, though. For example, in the late 90s/early 00s there was a wave of series which wanted to push borders by showing a same-sex kiss in one episode, and don't get me wrong, that was a good thing - but it is notable that it were always, always f/f kisses. F/F simply is simply is more acceptable, period, yes. I think it has to do with the fact that m/m challenges particularly male gender norms and, well, we still kinda do live in a male-dominated society. Male gender norms being attacked hence draws a more severe response than female gender norms being attacked, especially as female gender norms have been softened up by decades of female emancipation anyway, while this process has barely touched male gender norms[1] . But beyond that, there is also the concept of fragile masculinity: That a small slip is enough for a man to not really be seen as a man anymore. Not a "real man" (tm), anyway. There doesn't really seem to be something comparable for women.
Hm, not sure about that. I'd even say the titilation aspect of yuri gets mocked more, while yaoi gets mocked more for how the stereotypical teenage girl writers have no clue about such things as anatomy, relationship dynamics, etc. In any case, Yuri actually does seem to have an audience more balanced between actually LGBT women and straight men, compared to yaoi, which seems to be near exclusively be marketed to straight girls/women (on the commercial level, that is, so not fanfic, but it is still telling).
Well, guilty as charged, I guess. In a way. Neither Kaworu nor Shinji are exactly epitomes of classical masculinity, after all.
Go for it!Well, but that is true of all relationships in NGE, be it A/S, R/S or K/S. In fact, I'd argue if it weren't for the Tabris problem, K/S has the easiest chance of getting off the ground and nearly already was there. And yet, A/S (the most, ah, complicated of those relationships) gets a free pass, R/S is mostly only denounced for the incest fear, and hell, even A/R gets a free pass as well despite having absolutely no grounding in canon... so there is no reason why K/S should need an extra justification.
The point is you have an angle to work with here. It is hence supremely easy to fulfill Morose's requirement of "You need to show how they got to the relationship", much more so than with Asuka. You solve the Tabris problem, and you are there, basically. Of course, yes, once the problem is solved, the story is over. But I don't see that as a problem? That is a very classical story format, after all, maybe the classical story format: You get a character. Character encounters a problem. Character solves the problem, or the problem defeats the character. And you would in fact get sufficient drama and emotions out of that structure for a good story.
There-in lies the problem though. How exactly does one resolve the issue of "This character's entire raison d'etre is antithetical to continued Human existence"? Because, ultimately, Tabris is Kaworu and Kaworu is Tabris. Advice & Trust is running with the action plan of "sufficient willpower with a suicide by proxy back-up". And carries the caveat of that being a temporary solution due to the larger threats at work. To resolve it in a permanent manner would take a LOT of literary leg-work and very much strain the suspension of dis-belief. I personally think it works best as a "doomed fling" if it is going to be used.
And in what world is that not a perfectly fine set up for a romance story? "Love overcoming external odds" is hardly a novel concept, and during the duration of the story you will be able to get plenty of tension and characterization out of that conflict. Yes, Kaworu is idealized, but he is also Tabris, out to destroy the world. How is that not making for sufficient tension and crisis in the story? Of course, at the end of the story, the tension is resolved one way or the other (either by the characters defeating the problem, or the problem defeating the characters), but that is true for most story set-ups.
It is true that canon kinda put Rei's arc on hold between Ramiel and Armisael, but the story of a girl raised as a tool who slowly discovers she might be more than a tool, that she might have emotions and own wants - you honestly think that is "preciously little to utilize"? That is more than enough stuff for a story.
Depends on how continuous you see Rei.
That is up to the individual fic author to decide. I'm just saying that going by canon, there is more than enough justification for K/S. K/S fics don't need to go out of their way to justify that relationships. But of course, it can still be the relationship is still doomed in-universe, yes. Though there are ways around it, if you think a bit.
Well the thought was just a standard reversal of fortune, especially in regards to how Maya usually fits into romance plots. Usually (at least in stories in which she has a romance) her pining after Rits pays off and they get together. Here the roles are kind of the opposite, Maya is the older one and the one with the higher position of authority. She gets to be the one to feel guilty about conflicts of interests and age gaps and such. Which is a direction I had not seen with Maya before so I wanted to try.
While I see our point I must point out that it doesn't need to be a "why" or a "how". I mean it is possible for Maya and Kodama to have met and started dating even before we were introduced to either. Sure we could hear about "why" and "how" but it is just as likely to distract from the now, and it's not like people need a "reason" to hook up.
Now this is how you right a fic. See a pattern and decide to be the odd man out. Brava Alex, Brava.
I mean, the alternative is to just declare your piece AU and remove whatever details you don't think work particularly well. That's always been my personal view on things: the fiction side of it being more important than the fan, and if your work needs things to be slightly nudged around in order to get the themes, character arcs, what-have-you functioning properly, then that's what you need to do in order to get a good story running.
To be honest a lot of the AU elements of BnB kinda crept up on me or were spur of the moment decisions. The story started with the conceit of my Mari which is based on the manga but extrapolated in a lot of ways. In my first thoughts the divergent point would have been Mari replacing Rits with Shinji being the same as canon. But I dashed that as I felt it did not do enough unique to justify its existence so I thought if her raising Shinji. Then like a series of dominos things added up. Mostly in an effort to be different yet the same. So Shinji got the S2 engine and the up with Asuka (Rebecca was a last minute addition based on a meta joke about fan art but I like how she has developed in my mind.) The angel fights being new was both because i noticed in other fics the angel fights being a bit of a after thought, and with Shinjis power up his enemies needed one too. Kunohama was due to two factors. One I wanted to explore Shinjis family on his mother's side ans two i wanted at least one of the major players to be female (canon has a bit of a problem tearing down all the powerful women in my opinion). Other additions were simply due to things not being shown in canon. So things like Nerv America is whole cloth by necessity. I know it's a lot to take in (I could probably turn it into a original setting without massive changes) but it has been a fun ride coming up with stuff.
It's been an absolute pleasure watching you build the world of bnb, and I love every part of it.
Not i have to nit pick this a bit. It's only "easier" in that you don't have to worry about getting every little detail to match canon, even with AU. However the trade off is that you are stuck with trying to make one yourself. Meaning alongside trying to make a coherent plot, and all that comes with it, you need a world that not only allows said plot, but you have to make sure everything makes sense, make enough to work with(as in you can't make a world spanning tour if you only have a place no bigger then a small town), make a bunch of characters from scratch and try to make them make sense. All in all it's still a lot of work, just in a different way.
I agree wholeheartedly. While you should keep characters within character to an extent(as then you might as well make OCs) other series are the ore that you need to forge to make something. Honestly i am honestly bored with all the fics that are "100% Canon You Know, New Character To Make It Less Stale". Seriously. While just adding a character wouldn't 180 everything just by having them in story it should at least make something different enough where are not getting exactly what we got from canon frame to frame.
Agreed. Alex has done fic right.
