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Beauty and the Beast [NGE]

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Alex said:
At that, the woman stepped forward and put on a toothy grin. "Indeed there is but..." She turned to the boy beside her and sighed. "Shinji, would you mind giving us some space for a bit? Things might get a bit... technical." Touji raised an eyebrow again and wondered what the woman meant. Instinctively his gaze roamed to the big red nurse button on the side of his bed. "Oh, and in case you want to head back to the Geofront while I deal with this, I sent you the number for Section 2. You can call them up and request a pickup."

The boy looked a bit puzzled. "Can I do that?"
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Well, while Show!Shinji feels like everybody hates him and that piloting the Eva is the only thing that makes him worthy of not being hurt by other people, BnB!Shinji pilots the Eva because he sees it as a way to prevent others from feeling the pain that he feels...but he also doesn't really like having to experience the reality that he's living in. Basically even martyr complex superpowered Shinji is still Shinji deep down.

Hopefully Shinji realizes that while his help is appreciated, just attempting to fix the most glaring issue that you can see (like Touji needing a new arm) doesn't just magically fix every problem that said person has.
 
Yeah, its kind of a touchy subject isn't it? Anno is clearly basing a lot on Freudian ideas but... Freud has by in large been debunked by successive figures in the field of psychoanalysis. So there are times and places where I look and infer what I am sure what author intent is, but it does not really line up with what is accurate. Personally, I am more of the camp where if something does not make sense in the canon then its best to change or ignore it but its all about styles.
 
MoroseMobius said:
You can replace the core (Unit-03's wasn't set up until it got to Japan, seeing as how its entire production happening in Massachusetts, a place Touji's mother was certainly not). You can therefore replace the pilot. Sentimentality keeps Yui in Unit-01, and Shinji as its primary pilot, and only that. The only thing keeping adults from being pilots are SEELE's need for control and a lack of fresh corpses.
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Those are some bold claims, which have absolutely no backing in canon. The EVAs run on maternal love, and they are shown to display their most extraordinary results when the pilots are in fact just, well, little kids bawling for their mother. And as has been said, blatantly naming the pilots "Children" is a Doylist wack with the hammer over the head. There is absolutely no indication at all that this works with adults and that this is some big SEELE conspiracy. In fact, if SEELE wants control, and if it worked with adults, they could just use some of their cultists. Hell, if it worked with adults, wouldn't Gendo synch with Yui whenever possible? But apparently it doesn't - all we see is that the whole process runs on the mother-child bond.

I mean, if what you say is true, and Cores could be freely exchanged and adults pilo, then the children could just leave, without endangering the safety of the world. And then, given how they are treated, they should just leave. Then none of them needs to go through that. Piloting destroyed the pilots in canon; if what you say is true they can escape that fate. Then the logical consequence of all of what I say about their treatment is in fact they quit their awful, awful job, just as the crews can. Also, if what you say is true, then Shinji, who hates piloting in canon, has to go through this only because of his mother, and without her one could leave EVA-01 to an adult - which would make Yui a major villain.(Then again, if cores can be exchanged freely, you could just remove the Yui-core from EVA-01 - and one would think in that case Gendo would have done so so as to not endanger her).

But I don't think that's true. I don't think it works that way. They have to stay for the sake of the world. And they do - and that is noble and heroic.

But this doesn't even matter. Even if you were right, then nobody would know about it, because it's all a big SEELE conspiracy. Then as far as everybody is concerned, as far as everyone knows, what I said would still be correct, and my argument would still be valid - then, as far as everyone knows, it's not like the pilots have a chance but to be there, while the crews could quit their job at any time.

But what's more, what's actually the point... Nothing of that changes the facts that it is the pilots who save the world? Even if they could replaced, they aren't. It is in fact they who go out and fight. So, as I've said - you have children forced to be child soldiers, who have their whole childhood thrown away (an even bigger focus here in BnB than in canon), who suffer pain and agony and trauma basically every battle - and then you have adults who do their normal 8h a day job: Clerks and engineers and technicians and scientists. They do good work of course; they enable the whole operation to run. But in the end, they are just doing their job, same as everyone else of us. Meanwhile, the actual heroism - that is displayed by the pilots. The pilots save the world; the NERV crews merely enable them to do so (but then, so does every single taxpayer for helping fund the whole thing).

I mean, I just don't get that attitude, tbh. In canon, piloting destroys the pilots, and they're 14 year old kids - all for the sake of the world and its people. And yet they should get the same appreciation as the people who just do their everyday job, simply because that everyday job happens to be at NERV?
 
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Given that Unti-03 was NOT ready until its core was prepped/installed in Japan, I'd say that yes, you can change the pilots and cores, it's just horrendously wasteful to do so, as you'd be throwing away a working EVA and pilot for one that might not. As @DocMatoi pointed out, the reason the EVA pilots are kids is part of Anno's point that using child soldiers IS abominable, and someone having the brainwave that you don't need to use kids would defeat the point of that part of NGE's message. From an in-universe perspective, why would SEELE, a collection of back-stabbing power-hungry elderly, who have no chance of piloting the god-machine that is the EVA, ever give someone who understands what the EVA can really do the chance to, I don't know, initiate 3I and set themselves up as God?

As to why Gendo can't pilot Unit-01, there's two reasons: SEELE not wanting Gendo to end up as God, and Yui being a bit nuts and wanting to make Shinji God.

You're not seeing the forest for the trees here: I'm agreeing that the Children shouldn't have to pilot, and that if anyone who knew how to make that happen weren't also invested in making sure that they were the ones to pilot (or Anno wanting to make a show about what he thought mecha should be, rather than just what's wrong with it) then they likely wouldn't. But where we differ is that you're hung up on the end result: a child soldier fighting and killing a monster, while I'm trying to look at all of it: literal thousands of people putting in cumulative tens of thousands of hours (and in some cases years of their lives, if not effectively dying) to make it possible for the monster to be fought at all. What good is a fighter pilot if their plane has no fuel, no ammo, and hasn't had a repair since it rolled of the assembly line, and they've gotten no training, have no friendly radar, and no anything behind them?

NGE (and off-shoots that are in the same flavor) is a tragedy, you shouldn't feel good about what's happening if you look at it. That doesn't make the people doing those things that offend you so monstrous, nor does it make the ones such things are happening to saints. A world where kids don't need to pilot EVAs is a world where most of the shit that happens in NGE doesn't happen.
 
MoroseMobius said:
Given that Unti-03 was NOT ready until its core was prepped/installed in Japan, I'd say that yes, you can change the pilots and cores, it's just horrendously wasteful to do so, as you'd be throwing away a working EVA and pilot for one that might not. As @DocMatoi pointed out, the reason the EVA pilots are kids is part of Anno's point that using child soldiers IS abominable, and someone having the brainwave that you don't need to use kids would defeat the point of that part of NGE's message. From an in-universe perspective, why would SEELE, a collection of back-stabbing power-hungry elderly, who have no chance of piloting the god-machine that is the EVA, ever give someone who understands what the EVA can really do the chance to, I don't know, initiate 3I and set themselves up as God?
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I am going to meet you halfway and say that Unit-3's core was installed in Japan since it presumably houses Toujis mom but that once you install a core then there is no going back. Otherwise, things like the dummy plugs would not be brought up. You do make a good point about NERV and by extension NERV keeping the kids ignorant of the processes of the Evas for fear they could capitalize on them.

As for the other stuff... to be honest, I find this avenue deeply draining. Perhaps it is my failing as a writer but it can be hard not to read people complain how awful and unfair it all is without feeling a bit accused of somehow being complicit in that suffering. Perhaps I should just stop writing this.
 
MoroseMobius said:
Given that Unti-03 was NOT ready until its core was prepped/installed in Japan, I'd say that yes, you can change the pilots and cores, it's just horrendously wasteful to do so,
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Well, I do think this has nothing to do with the main argument going on, but even so I don't think that doesn't hold. Let's look at the facts we have:

1) Asuka and Shinji can pilot their EVAs because they are ensouled by their respective mothers (and Rei can also pilot 01 because she is, in a sense, Yui's daughter - Ritsuko explicitly says in Episode 14 that Rei and Shinji can cross-synch because their profile is so similar, which I take to mean to refer to their genetic link. Likewise, Shinji can probably pilot 00 because Rei is a clone of his mother.)
2) Everyone in class 2A is a prospective pilot
3) Whenever we hear about the parents of members of class 2A they don't seem to have a mother
==>4) (Conclusion from 1-3): Nobody in class 2A has a living mother, as part of them all being prospective pilots. Also, you need this mother-child link.
5) At least in the manga, Touji's mother is dead as well.
==>6) (Conclusion from 4 and 5): The soul in EVA-03 is Touji's mother.
7) The Marduk Institute is a scam. Something else determines whether somebody (i.e. the members of class 2A) are prospective pilots.
==>8) (Conclusion from 2, 4 and 7): NERV or SEELE has the souls of those dead mothers of the class 2A members, and that is what makes them prospective pilots.

So, there are basically three variants here:
1) The soul of Touji's mother was in a core which
1a) either was sent to America for construction
1b) or installed at Matsushiro; the EVA was hence only truly finished in Japan.
2) The soul wasn't stored in a core at all, and it was in fact the soul which got transferred into the already existing, but empty, EVA core. This might be possible: We know that all EVAs had empty cores at first (EVA-01 and EVA-02 sucked their respective designers in, EVA-00 was empty until it got half of Rei). And more importantly, in Episode, uh... the one where the Reiquarium gets destroyed, Ritsuko answers the question what Rei is that she is a vessel of souls. It is entirely possible that was Rei's original purpose - transfer of souls.

None of this implies that that cores, once installed (if that is the process that happens), can get swapped or changed. OTOH, I think much speaks against it: The haphazard process of how Asuka was chosen to be a pilot, the likewise haphazard use of Shinji as replacement pilot, generally, that this all seems to have been done very, well, un-methodically. Which can be explained if NERV and SEELE simply have to work with what they have at hand as well - if Kyoko is now EVA-02, well, then they have to deal with that fact, and then Asuka has to be pilot.

@DocMatoi pointed out, the reason the EVA pilots are kids is part of Anno's point that using child soldiers IS abominable, and someone having the brainwave that you don't need to use kids would defeat the point of that part of NGE's message.
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I'm not sure how you mean the second part here, but I think necessity absolutely plays a part in this: The children are basically used as tools. They are needed to defeat the angels, so everyone around them only ever uses them as tools to that effect - not just SEELE, but everyone down to their guardians and commanding officers as well. Rei and Asuka have basically been raised their whole life not as children, but just as tools for a certain effect.

I think that is part of NGE's general setup in which, well, most everyone is an asshole. And that in turn is part of NGE's general point, that humans can't understand each other, that people will always hurt each other, that people are not nice - explained and symbolized in the show by the AT Fields. And that yet, as spelled out explicitly at the end of EoE, it might be worth living regardless of that fact.

Keep in mind what Shinji says when he restores the ability of people to have AT Fields: That he will get hurt and betrayed again - not that there is a risk, but that it will happen. Because that is how humans are. Everything else is self-delusion, "like a prayer". And yet, he wants to "see them all again". So, given those themes, it absolutely fits that in NGE a situation is created where everyone has an interest to use the children as tools - because people are only interested in themselves, interested in saving their own hide, and so they are using children as tools. Because that's how humans are.

If it's all just the cackling council of supervillains, that would lose its edge. Then it's easy and convenient - all just those supervillains, instead of basic human nature. Then the whole symbolism of the AT Field loses its meaning, or at least, to a degree.

Plus of course, the funny thing is, if you're right, if cores are swappable and pilots replaceable... then the kids could just walk away. Then the whole thing about Shinji's motivation loses a big part of its tension. Then he could walk away while the defence of the world is still ensured. And without Ritsuko and Gendo commenting again and again in the first three episodes how they need those children after all. And then, yeah, then he really should have walked away, given his awful treatment. Which is funny, because, it isn't that the position people always against when discussing with me?

I'm agreeing that the Children shouldn't have to pilot
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But that is the point: They do have to by circumstances. They are the ones who hence save the world again and again, under great personal sacrifices, as children. And yet, everyone just takes that as granted. Misato never even thanks Shinji for it again, nevermind Asuka, never lauds them for battles, never even mention this all. Neither do the classmates. All their suffering isn't even mentioned. THAT is the problem. They don't get the proper recognition, and when I point this out and you go "but the crews!!!"... that seems very wrong-headed to me.

literal thousands of people putting in cumulative tens of thousands of hours (and in some cases years of their lives, if not effectively dying) to make it possible for the monster to be fought at all. What good is a fighter pilot if their plane has no fuel, no ammo, and hasn't had a repair since it rolled of the assembly line, and they've gotten no training, have no friendly radar, and no anything behind them?
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Well, it's not like they do the pilots a service with that, or only in as far as that the pilot is also saved from angelic impact in the end. But yes, you do need the crews for that, and I never denied that. I did say they enabled the Children to save the world again and again - but still, it's the Children who do so. Once again, the point is - while what the crews do is necessary and good, the actual heroism and sacrifice is displayed by the pilots. The crews only do regular jobs as clerks, engineers, scientists etc. They go to work in the morning, do their tasks, check out in the evening and go home again. They could also have done such a job at a lab for the scientists or,for the mechanics, a car workshop.

It isn't anything extraordinary what those crews do. It's just having a job. Meanwhile, kids having to go out and save the world in painful life and death battles? That is extraordinary and tragic and heroic. It is something that shouldn't even exist, something that is an abomination, but has to happen for the sake of the defence of the world. And so it's the pilots who are the true heroes - the pilots who save the world, and who should be accredited with that. Saying "it was a team effort" while one side of the team merely does their job while the other side get destroyed in teenage years by piloting seems kinda like all the "we did it as a team" stuff in school, if you know what I mean...
 
Warning For Marginal Behavior
Alex said:
As for the other stuff... to be honest, I find this avenue deeply draining. Perhaps it is my failing as a writer but it can be hard not to read people complain how awful and unfair it all is without feeling a bit accused of somehow being complicit in that suffering. Perhaps I should just stop writing this.
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As @MoroseMobius said:
"NGE (and off-shoots that are in the same flavor) is a tragedy, you shouldn't feel good about what's happening if you look at it."
The unfairness exists, and I'm pointing it out, but it is supposed to exist in the story. That doesn't mean you endorse it. NGE is supposed to be a tragedy after all. It just means deeply awful stuff happen in the NGE setting. That doesn't mean you excuse or justify it; I just think that OTOH we also shouldn't gloss over that some characters are in fact assholes - but assholes exist, especially in settings like NGE.
 
...Wow @Susano ... Do you feel proud of yourself right now?

Like... Holy shit, you just pretty much literally killed a story.

Literally. Murdered it.

Right after the author warned you that you were in danger of doing exactly that. And you decided to fucking go ahead and do it anyways. So was this what you wanted? Are you fucking proud of yourself?

You Fucking Asshole.

I liked this story, it was fun, and interesting, but no, because you just have to have the last word, you can't let go of an argument when the author asks. And now the story is pretty much dead.

Dead.

So I hope you're happy, because I'm fair certain you just put a lot of effort into making sure that no one else is.
 
Alex said:
I think I might be done then. Sorry folks.
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I think thats a hasty action, Alex. Why don't you just take some time off, let yourself relax a bit, and come back to this when you're ready? You've done a good job so far, no need to quit for good.
 
Alex said:
As for the other stuff... to be honest, I find this avenue deeply draining. Perhaps it is my failing as a writer but it can be hard not to read people complain how awful and unfair it all is without feeling a bit accused of somehow being complicit in that suffering. Perhaps I should just stop writing this.
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You are not failing at all here, Alex. This is a remarkably fresh and interesting take on Eva that manages to make things very different, yet all the characters are very recognizable, remaining true to their core natures while still being different in ways that makes sense or are justified in the narrative as presented. There are things that are sad and unfair, but that's because Eva is a sad story of an unfair world, where people fight on anyway because that quest for happiness and connection is a deeply rooted part of what being human means.

I hope some ill-considered criticism doesn't kill your muse to continue this interesting and enjoyable story.
 
I can't really say much more than what others have said before me, this is a great story and you're doing a very good job of it. If you don't have the drive to write it anymore then that is fair, you can't force these things but you are doing a good job and just because it doesn't feature what some people think it should doesn't mean you are doing a bad job, ignoring something or anything else. This is your story, not theirs and you should write what you want to.

It's only fanfiction after all.
 
Please, PLEASE do not stop writing!
It's enjoyable to read, some people will obsess over nit-pick details (we're nerds, it's something that happens a lot) but that shouldn't be reason to stop. Ever.

Critic's headcannon =/= your headcannon, and here's the thing *leans closer conspiratorially* That's utterly fine.
Write, follow the story in your head to it's end, please share it with us. and don't feel that just because someone isn't on your wavelength that one vocal person is the same as the non vocal readership also not being on your wavelength.

*hugs*
tldr: Do your thing with pride.
 
Warning: Warning
  • Staff Post
    • warning @Susano, your repeated criticism and lengthy digressions into your own bugbears about Evangelion here have become disruptive to the thread, as well as bordering on harassment of @Alex. Valid critique is of course fine, but this has gone beyond that point, and has started to detract from the story itself. I've threadbanned you for a day as a warning. If this behaviour reoccurs, I will consider a permanent threadban and infraction.

    @Spectral Waltz, I'm letting you off for your use of invective as reasonable frustration, in this instance, but in future please try to be more careful.

    Thanks you all for your time. Please don't do it again.
     
  • Staff Post
    • So. After the dust has settled for a bit, I want to use this chance to apologize to Alex.

    The thing is, I can be really inconsiderate in the original sense of the word – not that I don't care about the feelings of others, but that this consideration just doesn't pop into my mind. So, I'll just dash forwards with any discussion or whatever, without consideration for other things, because I have thoughts only for that discussion. And as was amply shown, sometimes I hurt people with that, like I have now.

    And I'm sorry for that.

    Not everything said or speculated about me or what happened here is correct, but in t he end, what happened is that Alex really wished for the discussion to end, even said it was wearing him down… and I just ignored that because I wanted to charge ahead with my argument. And that was stupid and rude of me. So I apologize for that.

    For what it's worth, I hope you'll continue the story after all, Alex. As I've said, your planned arc was really good, especially the character arc for Shinji. You had a coherent vision and theme there, which you also showed in the chapters actually written (so far?). And unlike many fics, it didn't close its eyes or whitewash what is happening in the series. I liked that, and I liked the story. But as a result of it not whitewashing characters, there was a lot of me to comment about what is happening IN the story. But that was never meant as a criticism of the story or you.

    I am sorry if all that I wrote was still just too much. But please, I can only urge you to not let this kill off the fic for you.
     
    Thank you for the apology. I am sorry I acted rashly and unilaterally to your post. I should have tried to explain my point of view or rather to more calmly diffuse the situation. In the past when editing and commenting on the fic you have made a point to criticize the situation and the characters in the story but less so my writing in general. And I should not be Orwellian in the types of opinions that are allowed in my threads. Still, I admit my own weaknesses like I said above in that I can take such things more personally then they were intended.
     
    If you guys are still willing to read. I think I should try and get back on the horse. Thank you guys for all the kind words and support.
     
    Ugh creating consistent timelines are hard. Not helped by some things in canon defying logic. Still it does give me some good stuff to think about going forward.
     
    MoroseMobius said:
    My perspective is such: if Canon doesn't make sense, then just make shit up.
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    personally, I've always taken the position of 'there is no such thing as canon.' The story exists to be read, and to be told. If the storyteller doesn't like the way part of the story goes, it is their prerogative to change it to a story they want to tell. that includes transformative and derivative stories, like fanfic. its not the 90s, authors probably arent going to sue fanfic authors anymore, so no one can stop you.
     
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    DocMatoi said:
    personally, I've always taken the position of 'there is no such thing as canon.' The story exists to be read, and to be told. If the storyteller doesn't like the way part of the story goes, it is their prerogative to change it to a story they want to tell. that includes transformative and derivative stories, like fanfic. its not the 90s, authors probably arent going to sue fanfic authors anymore, so no one can stop you.
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    This is pretty much my thinking too, fanfic is there to explore the what ifs of that universe, as long as the author can explain themselves in a way that makes sense then it's all good. It's fun to explore what would happen if there was one slight change or a difference in interpretation from someone.
     
    What they said. Basically, canon is there as a starting point, and if you can lay it out in your own story why something is different, you can do just about anything you want. All you have to do is explain it to your readers so they aren't left wondering WTF just happened. And you've already done that very well here, with Mari just taking a different action at Yui's death. Everything changes, and changes for logical reasons. From there, you just let your story flow...
     
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