- Location
- Online
My head says to wait, but my heart says "GO FOR IT GIRL, NO MORE OF THE "WILL THEY WON'T THEY" CRAP I SEE EVERY @#$%ING TIME IN FICTION". The heart wants what the heart wants, even if it's not the right thing.
Beauty and the Beast [NGE]
- Location
- National Capital Region, USA
Lt Hyuga is Misato's deputy Ops guy. (And yes, has a raging crush on her that they both acknowledge, but he knows is hopeless.) He's not a programmer/sysop like Maya. He talks about doing a fair amount of file-snooping and such for Misato in the later parts of the series, but not coding or programming the way we see Maya do. Aoba... we only see him doing his own Ops console during fights, and being into his guitar off duty.
JennyDracos
Eccentric Hugging Lady
- Location
- Chicago
I know what you mean; I'm chomping at the bit for Reibecca and one of them is still on a boat. That said, I don't think Alex is putting any shipping for the sake of shipping. I think Maya and Kodama are gonna be a thing, and I hope it's a thing that doesn't blow up in their faces, but I dunno if that's gonna be the case. There's certainly room within the themes Alex is exploring to include the fallout of an exposed relationship in the sysop section.
- Location
- Surrey
Multiple poor decisions and one bad end later
[Smug Mari Noises]
Yui: I'm sorry Mari, but i just can't say no to that jawline.
- Location
- Canada
I understand the frustration at the glacial pace but I don't want to ruin one of my favorite bits of this fic to write about. (As others have noted it lets me explore the day to day operations and mundane side of Nerv. Something that is really interesting.) By trying to speed things along as it were. Maya is not even sure Kodama is gay yet. And she really does not know how to deal with these new feelings in relation to her feelings for Rits, someone she still very much still cares about and has feelings for. All I can say is that I'm not trying to bait you and that development is coming. And yes I am really glad people like my Maya. She is fun to write.
The worst part is Shinji is wrong in a way Gendo can't correct so he has to sit and take it. Rei was either a product of Gendos failed retrieva attempt or made to facilitate it. But Gendo can't say that without going into his plans.Ouch... you actually hurt him with that, Shinji. Congratulations? Unfortunately, Rei got caught in the blast too.
JennyDracos
Eccentric Hugging Lady
- Location
- Chicago
Yeah, that makes it even more...tragic? Twisted? At most, Rei's role as a Shinji substitute was purely to pilot Unit-01 - which turned out vanishingly irrelevant when Shinji got -04 instead.
Everything else she was made for, Shinji could never do.
...Well actually he might be Adamite enough to end the world now.
So the only lingering question is what this Gendo feels about Shinji, and there's enough pride I don't think Gendo would ever admit to anything. Plus Shinji is in no way mature enough to accept "he got rid of me because he legitimately thought he would fuck me up worse if I stayed."
Everything else she was made for, Shinji could never do.
...Well actually he might be Adamite enough to end the world now.
So the only lingering question is what this Gendo feels about Shinji, and there's enough pride I don't think Gendo would ever admit to anything. Plus Shinji is in no way mature enough to accept "he got rid of me because he legitimately thought he would fuck me up worse if I stayed."
- Location
- Canada
Now, in a brighter world, this ends with very emotional, tearful reconciliation. NGE, however? "I'm sorry" followed by a chomp is probably the best we'll get.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Well. So much for being understanding and supportive of Kunohama so far
Damnit, Rei! Turn down your cute for just a minute, will you? Shinji was so close to refusing his father!
Welp. Just goes to show how shady and well... oppressive in the emotional sense of the word NERV is. If it's really everything NDAs and security spooks. NERV doesn't want anyone outside to know what's really going on there. What it is they're doing. Makes sense, considering *what* they are doing. Like with the pilots.
With what right? That's just plain arrogance on Gendo's part. So Gendo expects that he treat Shinji however he likes and he still pilots and still respects his secrets? The same secrets that help make his and Rei's life miserable? Why should Shinji do that?
Heh. I still like the original formulation better, though.
Hm, would he need to? If he can unfold an AT field, he'll simply be untouchable, after all. No need to kill anyone...
Poor Rei. Mind, Shinji didn't say anything incorrect, and it was high time to confront his father, but... that timing was a bit unfortunate. And now Rei is thrown into confusion. And she never wanted to live anyway
- Location
- Canada
The right of military command. The right of "Technically I could leave you in the deepest hole I can find but won't because cooperation is a necessity right now". The right of "You can kill me later, but it's the apocalypse, and that takes precedent". Take your pick really.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
None of that requires keeping secrets. And military command is kinda contingent on Shinji piloting, no?
- Location
- Canada
There is a list of jobs in a military structure as long as I am tall that require you to not say certain things to certain people. And Shinji not being locked in the aforementioned "deepest pit that can be found" is also contingent on his piloting, thanks to Mari's little gift. Hell, the understanding of his being a reasonable person and piloting are the only reasons this conversation happened. And piloting places him in the Nerv command structure. Which requires certain things to not be talked about, i.e. All the NDAs that a civilian had to sign just to be in the civilian branch, let alone someone in the military branch.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Of course, "do this or I throw you in a pit" would... also make Gendo an obnoxiously arrogant person presuming and demanding too much.
Plus, the whole notion of treating NERV as a standard military of course comes with certain problems. There is no angel intelligence service. You don't need to keep secrets from inhuman kaiju. All of NERV's secrecy doesn't serve some higher goal, but simple power mechanisms, in which the children are caught. Which of course is the other problem: Treating children like normal soldiers is also arrogant and cruel.
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- Location
- Canada
He'd also be in the legal right of it, considering that due to what Mari did, Shinji (or at least a number of his internal organs) is arguably property of Nerv. Being obnoxious or arrogant hasn't stopped people from having and exercising their authority before.
To put things bluntly, Gendo has Shinji by the N2, leaving two options: work with Gendo, follow the very simple rules put before him and enjoy a great deal of relative freedom, or rebel and potentially end up scheduled for a vivisection so Nerv can make use of their material that one of their scientist grafted to him. And that's the ending where Shinji lives.
Just because Gendo is being an ass doesn't mean he doesn't have the legal authority to do so. And when you have that, there's pretty much nothing to be done, aside from trying to go over his head. And since the boy isn't even in Gendo's custody (technically), they can't make him hand the kid over.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
I'm not even sure what you're arguing now, since nobody would deny that Gendo has the power. That doesn't mean he is in fact full of entitled arrogance. However:
What? Unless slavery has been reintroduced since Second Impact, that isn't how anything works.
- Location
- Surrey
Gendo is more than within his rights to expect obedience from Shinji when it comes to NERV matters. That's all he asked for and all he expected.
'my superior is an arrogant jerk' is not an excuse for disobeying orders whenever you please, especially orders that ensure the safety of the entire world.
or is the argument that Shinji is within his rights to threaten the lives of others with his disobedience so his dad is less of a big jerk?
'my superior is an arrogant jerk' is not an excuse for disobeying orders whenever you please, especially orders that ensure the safety of the entire world.
or is the argument that Shinji is within his rights to threaten the lives of others with his disobedience so his dad is less of a big jerk?
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Well what Gendo said is that he expects obedience, and that includes piloting whenever he tells Shinji to pilot. But it is in fact presumpteous to just expect Shinji to be a pilot just because Gendo says so.
Plus, those lives do not depend on Gendo keeping his secrets.
- Location
- Canada
The N2 engine and Adamite tissues in Shinji. They were created on Nerv time, in a Nerv lab, with Nerv resources, by a Nerv scientist, and implanted in a designated Nerv pilot for using of Nerv properties. The only way those could belong to Nerv more would be if they had "Property of Nerv" stamped on them. That they happen to be attached to someone doesn't really matter. So unless you suggest a number of surgeries that may not even be possible, depending on the degree to which those tissues have bonded with Shinji's body, surgeries that would likely have a very low change of survival due to the same, then Shinji only has partial ownership of his body.
Chalk one up for Mari on the "horrible, did not think things through" chart.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
That's not how the law works, though. You can't force medical operations etc on people, and you compel people just because your resources were used in medical operations on them. There is no such thing as "partial ownership of the own body".
Basically, just speaking about legalities and not de facto powers, all NERV could do would be to charge Mari for misuse of NERV resources. Unless, as said, slavery has been reintroduced in the meanwhile.
/E: I mean, if a person embezzles company money to get a cardiac pacemaker for a relative, and this embezzlement blows up, the company wouldn't be able to demand that cardiac pacemaker. The embezzler would simply have to return the embezzled money as much as he still can.
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- Location
- Canada
You underestimate the cruelties of "opt-in" healthcare. I assure you, if a company wants their tech back, they're going to get it back. Doesn't help that those procedures happened on US soil, which does have legal precedent for "slavery" (it can be used as part of a punishment, typically as labour, which wholly applies here).
- Location
- Canada
Hoo boy. Lot to unpack here so I think I should take it one bit at a time because I think there is a lot to discuss and a myriad of things to say.
Do I think Shinji is obligated to pilot? Yes. But far more from the moral perspective of saving people and preventing damage then because someone in authority told him to. They don't treat the kids like actual military positions in canon and I don't really think they should. They are in the end still kids. It should also be pointed out that in canon Shinji is constantly given the opportunity to leave. Sure he comes back, but besides Misato trying to convince him not to leave NERV does not try to ever stop him.
Should Shinji follow Gendo's orders? Well to some extent, but mostly due out of utility. In this case Shinji going off and telling everyone Rei is a clone would really do nothing but cause a bunch of problems for NERV, with no benefit to him except petty spite. But on principal I don't think Shinji has to be a perfect obedient soldier.
Which brings me to the next point. No I don't think NERV owns Shinji. I am sure there are those who feel that way in universe like Stern or some of his lackies, the same people who would love to vivisect him to get at the secrets of his S2 engine. But no I don't think NERV owns him. That treads into some really fucked up territory for me.
Do I think Shinji is obligated to pilot? Yes. But far more from the moral perspective of saving people and preventing damage then because someone in authority told him to. They don't treat the kids like actual military positions in canon and I don't really think they should. They are in the end still kids. It should also be pointed out that in canon Shinji is constantly given the opportunity to leave. Sure he comes back, but besides Misato trying to convince him not to leave NERV does not try to ever stop him.
Should Shinji follow Gendo's orders? Well to some extent, but mostly due out of utility. In this case Shinji going off and telling everyone Rei is a clone would really do nothing but cause a bunch of problems for NERV, with no benefit to him except petty spite. But on principal I don't think Shinji has to be a perfect obedient soldier.
Which brings me to the next point. No I don't think NERV owns Shinji. I am sure there are those who feel that way in universe like Stern or some of his lackies, the same people who would love to vivisect him to get at the secrets of his S2 engine. But no I don't think NERV owns him. That treads into some really fucked up territory for me.
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- Location
- Online
While i see your point, and i hope Shinji would pilot if it was to save the life of me and my loved ones, i must point out the "moral perspective" loses some steam when you realize Shinji is a child solder. Even if he was trained this time around the reason we don't do it is cause kids are still...well kids are both more resilient and more fragile then adults. It's much easier for this to screw them up, and in ways that one would never have thought about.
again must nit pick: Eva already treads into some really fucked up territory. What you are suggesting is more or less merely a step darker. Also would they need him for research? They already got Mari's notes, and Mari herself.
- Location
- Canada
The only reason I think Shinji is morally obligated to pilot is because of the massive sheer scale of the potential consequences if he does not. Massive loss of life up to and possibly including the fate of the whole world. He is one of the only people on earth with any real ability to stop it and I think that comes with some unfortunate responsibility. Do I think child soldiery is inherently manipulative abusive and harmful? Yes. But against the massive things on the other end of this trolly problem I find it necessary. That said I think the moral question of this is so far removed from anything in the real world it is slightly pointless to get too heated over it.
I think I should have been clearer in my explanation and if I came off to vauge I apologize. No, within the context of the setting NERV or at least some people therein claiming they own Shinji is not a impossibility nor even a longshot. Look at how NERV treats Rei for a example of how callous they can be when it comes to things they see as resources. But I would separate a in universe explanation to a outside argument. Yes the situation is bad but the badness does not self justify itself... if that makes sense. Basically just because Gendo might have the ability to do something does not make it correct.
On a lighter lore note for the question of why they would need Shinji I would remind you (gently of course I don't actually expect anyone to keep up with my stupid world building) That NERV and SEELE are somewhat divided. Stern and his friends want to get their hands on Shinji or Mari's S2 knowledge as a means to achieve immortality. But Kiel has made his best efforts to keep Shinji, Mari and her secrets out of their hands. Not out of a sense of benevolence but because he wants to enact HIS vision for humanity, instrumentality.
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JennyDracos
Eccentric Hugging Lady
- Location
- Chicago
But I like your worldbuilding! There's depth and it's fun!
