Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
The big effect on accidental nuclear wars is this:

As Herman Kahn pointed out in his 1960 work On Thermonuclear War, which is dry and large but which I think is important for anyone who really wants to understand nuclear war theory because it makes some interesting and counterintuitive points, a true "bolt from the blue" nuclear first strike without provocation is very unlikely.

After all, we can certainly imagine fictional nations that would welcome apocalyptic nuclear war that devastated them for the sake of destroying an enemy (the Hearts of Iron mod 'The New Order,' fairly well known around here, has a couple). But notably, such nations are unfailingly governed by ultra-fanatics, by ideologically committed madmen whose obsession with the destruction of their perceived enemies is as great and dire as any such fanaticism in human history, and perhaps greater.

In practice, the "bolt from the blue" first strike is nearly unimaginable except when perpetrated by a nation that has absolutely nothing to live for except the destruction of its ideological enemies, and which places no value on human life and cares for nothing except that destruction. And vaguely normal nations aren't like that.

Many in America during the Cold War told each other constantly that communism had turned the USSR and Maoist China into exactly such mad super-fanatical states. And the fact that they told each other this had a great deal to do with why Americans took the idea of the nuclear first strike as a realistic threat seriously.

When that fanaticism seems less plausible, and both sides know the other as an actual collection of humans rather than as an obsessive clique of deranged maniacs who exist only in the fantasies of their own side's propagandists, both sides are less likely to expect or believe that a nuclear attack could be launched without provocation and without warning.
 
We DO NOT WANT an export-oriented economy!

The United States will hit their peak conventional oil production at some point in the next 15 years and that's going to mean an oil crisis for the US and its allies (our major trading partners, especially the US in this timeline) as tightening oil supplies strain their economies (exponential growth means that some kind of oil crisis in the next decade-ish is pretty well inevitable though the exact circumstances of when it turns to a full-on crisis may be very different).
This is assuming things go as in OTL, which is a big assumption considering a Yom Kippur war type scenario is extremely unlikely. There is no Israel for all the major ME oil producers to rally against, and without that conflict the chance of them doing the kind of oil cartel shenanigans they did in the 70s is just not that likely. Blackstar has mentioned that an oil crisis could happen as late as the 90s, if something like Shell lying about its oils reserves happens. So this is a world flooded with cheap ME oil, a USSR with modern oil extraction (we just need to start drilling more) and no Yom Kippur war. I don't think its likely we will have an oil shock until the 80s.
Now when the West is in an oil crisis, then we might want to start intensifying our export industries, aiming to invade the Western markets with Soviet plastic toys or whatever in the 80s or thereabouts when their economies have stabilized and the baby boomers hitting the workforce in full force leads to a consumer boom (the 80s were when most Western countries had the lowest dependency ratios, with lots of working age people and few old people and children resulting in a consumer boom).
The issue with this, besides us not knowing when an oil shock will happen besides that it will be probably later, is that we are in a world in which China is unhindered by the GLF. I don't think waiting around for China to be able to leverage its massive low wage workforce with much more initial capital than they did OTL is a winning strategy. The US is doing well right now, the welfare regime hasn't been cut to pieces and they are still by far the strongest economy of the world, and Western Europe at this point has already rebounded, this isn't a bad time to start selling them cheap toys and consumer eletronics (which are another reason to do an LCI focus, much more options to play around with in that field). We should take advantage of this moment to leverage our own low wage labor to leapfrog in development before that option is closed to us.

Anyway, I think this is also an opportunity for the State to pre-empt the growth of private industry in the consumer goods sector as well, which I know some think is important, and it will help absorb the incoming labor wave that will be the biggest we have faced so far.
 
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To make an additional point regarding oil here: The description also mentions an effective supply shortages in the European and Asian oil market.
The era of comparatively easy yield optimizations from petrochemical feedstocks is mostly over, with practically every improvement made to the refining system. Fundamentally, there are only so many usable fractions that can be economically pushed out of the oil available, and reforming has severe structural limits. Meeting oil demands across Europe is steadily becoming a significant challenge, with increases in allocations necessary to maintain energy dominance in the Indian and Chinese sectors. Current programs of modernization do not offer a sufficient degree of promise in improving production, leaving only direct increases in the utilization of oil fields as an option.
Obviously, we don't want to become to an economy as reliant on oil exports like OTL Russia. However, oil is incredible resource for trade and foreign influence, and by all accounts we aren't exporting enough of it to fill current demand. Oil is the thing economies depend on for growth since the 1920s. Nearly any increase in economic activity increases either energy consumption (often filled by oil burning power plants) or logistical use (filled by oil burning cars and trucks). Europe and Asia currently can't get enough of the stuff and we have untapped oil supplies. As Europe starts economically growing, and as Asia and India start to industrialize, the global demand increases. Having insufficient oil supplies for China and India will also push them towards greater trade with the west and push towards energy autarky. Our current energy dominance is likely unsustainable in the long term, but there is no reason to cause a trade block split this early.
With this in mind, I think a balanced approach of significantly increasing oil extraction while also growing the consumer goods sector is the right move here. There is oil production gap promising a lot of income to be filled, which could subsequently be used for increasing welfare spending and increasing technological/economic investment.
 
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My personal preference is we pick "Split Focus in a Grand Plan" for all the reasons above but also because right now we are in an infra bubble and while we can just keep it chugging and just keep one upping every plan switching off infra focus and just doing less there might allow us to take some air out the bubble or if it is already bad enough pop it early so it doesn't get bad enough to be a sword of damocles hanging over our head forcing us to keep building dumber mega structures to keep the bubble from popping. Furthermore now that our economy is in a massive upswing it would likely be good to ease of the infra spending as when it boomerangs back then massive infra spending will be very useful
 
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I think doing lci + service plan should be done in 1970s

I can see the problem with the bubble, but your solution doesn't work for me.
 
Having had a look over our infrastructure projects, our infrastructure seems alright The automatic housing construction is done next year, the only available passenger rail project is considered pork and a lot of the remaining projects are small progress projects to rural road infrastructure and the water supply. If we hold of on the canals until low radiation landscaping matures a bit, I think we are good.

To write out my napkin math: I assume we will be fine if we finish technical services, the trans-Siberian road, 2 high-capacity road extension projects for a total of 700 progress, water reservoirs and the current stage of water distribution. Assuming we have 5 infra dice available (+7 now available from finishing the major housing project, -4 from the focus shift, -5 for some kind automatic infra project), this gives us a total of 35 dice to spend over the next 7 year plan. To finish the important projects I listed, I calculate 27 dice required dice at an average progress of 71 (50 +bonuses). Leaving us with some decent road network extension, and some room for infra improvements.

Plus, there are now 4 free dice available to build up infrastructure if we fall short. Seems to me like a LCI + Services plan is entirely reasonable.
 
Having had a look over our infrastructure projects, our infrastructure seems alright The automatic housing construction is done next year, the only available passenger rail project is considered pork and a lot of the remaining projects are small progress projects to rural road infrastructure and the water supply. If we hold of on the canals until low radiation landscaping matures a bit, I think we are good.

To write out my napkin math: I assume we will be fine if we finish technical services, the trans-Siberian road, 2 high-capacity road extension projects for a total of 700 progress, water reservoirs and the current stage of water distribution. Assuming we have 5 infra dice available (+7 now available from finishing the major housing project, -4 from the focus shift, -5 for some kind automatic infra project), this gives us a total of 35 dice to spend over the next 7 year plan. To finish the important projects I listed, I calculate 27 dice required dice at an average progress of 71 (50 +bonuses). Leaving us with some decent road network extension, and some room for infra improvements.

Plus, there are now 4 free dice available to build up infrastructure if we fall short. Seems to me like a LCI + Services plan is entirely reasonable.
That program seems too small - we really should get more water distribution levels than that over the course of the plan - all economically viable cities having sewers is level 10. We also probably more autodice than that too - we will want at least 3, maybe 5 in housing to keep up with growth and not crash the sector; at least 2 in dams; and probably 1 in HSR. We probably want airports as well, especially if we're not advancing HSR, and may need more water management, telecoms or power grid investments too.

Critically, not getting Canals means either slowing economic growth due to power restrictions or convincing the SupSov to let us become an unmitigated coal importer. So focusing on power- and water-hungry LCI and no Infra seems self-defeating.

I think we need at least one more plan of Infra focus, unless we plan on using most of our Free Dice on it.
 
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To write out my napkin math: I assume we will be fine if we finish technical services, the trans-Siberian road, 2 high-capacity road extension projects for a total of 700 progress, water reservoirs and the current stage of water distribution. Assuming we have 5 infra dice available (+7 now available from finishing the major housing project, -4 from the focus shift, -5 for some kind automatic infra project), this gives us a total of 35 dice to spend over the next 7 year plan. To finish the important projects I listed, I calculate 27 dice required dice at an average progress of 71 (50 +bonuses). Leaving us with some decent road network extension, and some room for infra improvements.

Plus, there are now 4 free dice available to build up infrastructure if we fall short. Seems to me like a LCI + Services plan is entirely reasonable.

It seems to me that you are serious underbudgeting infrastructure here.

First off, we're going to have anywhere from 6-8 autodice running, not 5. 5 is JUST the housing, and the absolute bare minimum hydroelectrical investment would be an additional 1 die. If we want to get more than a token amount of hydroelectricity, then probably 2 dice, but point is we need so much electricity that there's no way I can see zero working. So just token hydro power already puts us at 25 spare dice instead of 35, and actually significant amounts of hydro power bring it down to 15. If we add in any investment in high speed passenger rail then we rapidly end up with essentially no dice.

High capacity roads for the Urals/Central Asia are going to cost a lot more than 700 points combined, and I think your proposed plan is criminally underspending on water infrastructure even with the optimistic autodice budgeting. The current stage is clean drinking water for our largest cities. This doesn't touch sewage, or drinking water for cities that aren't Moscow/Leningrad/Kiev sized. We should be aiming for somewhere between water 8 and water 10, not 6, so that's a few thousand extra points of critical infrastructure that I think you're missing. And you list nothing about the canal, which is required to keep our heavy industrial complex from struggling (it doesn't matter how hard we focus on LCI, we're not decoupling the economy from HI anytime soon).

In short, I think that the bare minimum acceptable infrastructure slate needs something like 50-60ish dice, not 27, and expecting us to put every single free die into Infrastructure every single turn is obviously absurd and will not happen. And even if it DID happen we would STILL come up a little short without the focus dice. I think the Infra focus is necessary, not for weird megaprojects like spending 3 autodice on HSR and doing nuclear powered river reversal, but just for the basics of keeping enough electricity on the grid and getting the human shit out of the drinking water.
 
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As I see it, we can never decouple the economy from any sector. Each sector is just going to grow in importance until it reaches a plateau, and then be a continuous responsibility from then on. Except Infrastructure. (All glory to the Infrastructure.)

HI's odd position is that it's just about there for supporting the USSR, but for supporting CMEA it needs more growth. LCI is in the phase of extreme expansion that HI was a couple decades ago, and CMEA again deepens the requirements there. Services barely exists beyond the fundamentals.

So in terms of momentum, LCI is the most in need. HI will stabilize before anything else, though that won't be soon if we keep winning on CMEA and need to tie whole continental segments to our economy.
 
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The automatic housing construction is done next year
+7 now available from finishing the major housing project
Are.... are you under the impression that we're finished building houses and can reassign all the auto-dice put on housing?
we will want at least 3, maybe 5 in housing to keep up with growth
5 for sure. The Boomers are hitting adulthood and we need to house all of them. In addition to replacing some of the older housing that still remains.
 
I just did some quick envelope math of my own...

10 base Infra dice - 5 housing - 1 hydro (surely nobody will contend that we can get away with zero hydro power after watching electricity demand this Plan, we probably need 2 but I'm being generous with 1) = 4 dice remaining x 10 turns = 40 dice

-Roads for central asia and the urals (1500ish points? Probably significantly more but again I'm being generous here): 20ish dice
-Water distribution up to stage 8 (1500ish points): 20ish dice

And oops our entire infra dice pool just got 100% swallowed up by two things, one of which is heavily lowballed already! But let's keep going...

-Canal Stage 2: 8ish dice
-Hydrological stabilization: 5ish dice
-Reservoirs: 3 dice
-Upward adjustment for actually reasonable road cost that isn't absurdly optimistic (add trans-Siberian, and the Western USSR alone cost 1200 points, Urals AND Central Asia must cost at least 2000 combined and that's still probably a lowball): 10 dice

Well that's another 26 dice right there, for just the core transportation and making sure Central Asia doesn't totally collapse its water supply. But let's look at the rest of the list, just for funsies...

-Snowplows/road maintenance for all our new roads: 4 dice
-Second hydro power die to keep up with bottomless electricity demand: 10 dice

Hot damn YET ANOTHER 14 dice out of nowhere, again for things that I consider pretty basic requirements rather than flashy megaproject stretch goals. But technically not critical in the way that the canal/hydrology are for Central Asian industry, so I put them a category down.

And then finally we can start looking at stuff like
-City renovations in places that haven't been updated since Tsarist times: 7-10 dice per city (and hooboy we got a lot of cities)
-Mass transit integration: 3 dice
-High speed passenger rail: 10/20 dice (Caucasus/Urals respectively)


Basically my assessment is that we need somewhere around 70-80 dice just to cover our core infrastructure needs of taking the poop out of the water and paving the roads. Laying it all out like this, I honestly think we won't be able to afford e.g. high speed rail even WITH an Infra focus, so it's not like the Infra focus would be to chase shiny megaprojects. It would be to cover our bare minimum needs and still have some trouble. If we don't take an Infra focus, then we're likely not even going to fully pave the roads out to Central Asia and/or not going to be able to unfuck sanitation even moderately (Water 10 is fully unfucked sanitation, 8 is already a compromise target, and we could STILL miss completing Stage 8 without a focus). And you can completely forget about anything beyond just spamming the same two projects over and over for 10 turns straight.
 
First off, we're going to have anywhere from 6-8 autodice running, not 5. 5 is JUST the housing, and the absolute bare minimum hydroelectrical investment would be an additional 1 die. If we want to get more than a token amount of hydroelectricity, then probably 2 dice, but point is we need so much electricity that there's no way I can see zero working. So just token hydro power already puts us at 25 spare dice instead of 35, and actually significant amounts of hydro power bring it down to 15. If we add in any investment in high speed passenger rail then we rapidly end up with essentially no dice.
Just a couple of points here: I didn't list the ongoing autodice on dam expansion in my quick napkin math. The 2 infra dice on Hydro are budgeted for the 8th plan, so I didn't list them. In effect, 35 dice include -5 housing and -2 dam autodice. Though I do wonder if the LCI investment couldn't offset lower damn building, given the emphasis of using natural gas for power grid and heating modernization in the stage 3 pre-caspian blurbs. If so, I think there might be a way to cease making the grid less dependent on damn construction, freeing up infra dice from dam building.
High capacity roads for the Urals/Central Asia are going to cost a lot more than 700 points combined, and I think your proposed plan is criminally underspending on water infrastructure even with the optimistic autodice budgeting.
Secondly, I'm not really sure about the Urals and Central Asia needing more than 700 points. Western Russia is pretty big, the place where most of the population and logistical activity is located. I don't think you have as much need for high capacity roads towards central Asia. Though that is just mostly guesswork on my part, if there is some kind of rough progress estimate I would be interested in seeing it.
is doesn't touch sewage, or drinking water for cities that aren't Moscow/Leningrad/Kiev sized. We should be aiming for somewhere between water 8 and water 10, not 6, so that's a few thousand extra points of critical infrastructure that I think you're missing. And you list nothing about the canal, which is required to keep our heavy industrial complex from struggling (it doesn't matter how hard we focus on LCI, we're not decoupling the economy from HI anytime soon).
Fair point regarding the sewage. Though I'm going to note that the backlog in the services also causes health issues, with the insufficient health care access increasing disease and mortality.
That program seems too small - we really should get more water distribution levels than that over the course of the plan - all economically viable cities having sewers is level 10. We also probably more autodice than that too - we will want at least 3, maybe 5 in housing to keep up with growth and not crash the sector; at least 2 in dams; and probably 1 in HSR. We probably want airports as well, especially if we're not advancing HSR, and may need more water management, telecoms or power grid investments too.
I think air ports are an luxury here. It's a boon, but the economy is probably fine without it. Plus there are no more telecommunication projects currently available.
 
The answer is simple: Obtain more dice. How? Buy them. Buy the entire CMEA labor army, using our LCI profits.

We quite literally cannot afford our core infrastructure needs otherwise.
 
Roads for central asia and the urals (1500ish points? Probably significantly more but again I'm being generous here): 20ish dice
That would mean building the same amount of high capacity roads we built in Western SU for the Ural and Central Asia. Using the OTL 1959 census, East Slavs made up 76% of the population, with Central Asia covering 6,3%. Building the same amount of high capacity roads there seems like ridiculous overkill. Admittedly, the terrain is more difficult than western russia, but I don't think you need the same number of interchanges around Tashkent as around Moscow and Leningrad.
The areas beyond the Ural also have a much lower population density compared to the, requiring fewer high capacity roads due to lower traffic. In short, double the progress would be the equivalent of a new four lane high way from Virginia to Denver. I think you are guessing to high, 10-12 dice is a more reasonable guess.
 
Central Asia is BIG and roads are paid for per mile, not per person served. I pestered Blackstar for some estimates in Discord, and again stressing that these are ESTIMATES from when I pestered her to eyeball it one morning, not the canon calculated numbers after she sits down and looks at maps and does the math...

Caucasus HC roads: 400ish points
Urals HC roads: 800ish points
Central Asia HC roads: 1000-1200ish points

And the projects would be done in that order. So if we want modern roads to service all our hot new export industries in the outer republics, that's 2200-2400ish points. Even if the number comes down after Blackstar looks more closely, I think the 1500-2000 progress ballpark is what we should be budgeting for at the least.
 
Central Asia is BIG and roads are paid for per mile, not per person served. I pestered Blackstar for some estimates in Discord, and again stressing that these are ESTIMATES from when I pestered her to eyeball it one morning, not the canon calculated numbers after she sits down and looks at maps and does the math...

Caucasus HC roads: 400ish points
Urals HC roads: 800ish points
Central Asia HC roads: 1000-1200ish points
Ok, fair enough. Seems my guess was off. Though I think building HC roads throughout Central Asia seems like a currently unnecessary mega project to me. I mean, you have an area with a few major population centers, separated by considerable stretches of 1 Person/km² territory, with limited potential for regional exports. Having the industry and population connected by rail to the rest of the Soviet Union seems perfectly serviceable in that situation. Just because it's listed under HC roads doesn't mean it's a sensible part of the current road improvement strategy.
 
If the goal is to turn our low wage areas (i.e. mainly Central Asia and the Caucasus) into export hubs, we're going to need SOME kind of upgraded transportation to them, to get the raw materials in and the finished goods out. If it's not roads, it's gotta be the canal or electrified cargo rail, and ideally it's both roads AND the canal because they fill very different niches.

If we don't want to do that, then the infrastructure needs aren't as pressing, but we should probably still do them anyways. The outer republics are never going to be as economical as the more urbanized areas to invest in, and the only way to change that trend is to bite the bullet and spend on the infrastructure that takes 30 years to pay off. If we don't do that, then 30 years from now we're still going to be complaining about how Central Asia is a stagnated backwater that isn't worth investing in, but also never invest in it to change that.
 
If the goal is to turn our low wage areas (i.e. mainly Central Asia and the Caucasus) into export hubs, we're going to need SOME kind of upgraded transportation to them, to get the raw materials in and the finished goods out. If it's not roads, it's gotta be the canal or electrified cargo rail, and ideally it's both roads AND the canal because they fill very different niches.
I'm not saying we shouldn't build a modern road network in Central Asia eventually, I'm just saying trying to build the road network right there right now is to large of a project when combined with building damns, upgrading housing and getting the water network to stage 8. Spending 17 dice for somewhere around 7% of the country just is a lot to ask for. Seems like something to undertake when there is slack in the infrastructure sector.

If I look at your infrastructure calculation, I think the spending on damns might not be as high. Increased oil extraction would be part of any LCI focus plan, and Blackstar has been dropping some hints that further pre-caspian oil productions opens the door to shifting the power grid towards natural gas instead of coal and hydropower.
Liquified gas reserves are important for the modernization of heating and the general power grid. While they are for now not necessary as heating modernizations have stalled in favor of other projects, their completion can significantly assist in further efforts. This will also not be heavily competed with, as natural gas is primarily a local-use resource.
Reads to me like a sufficient investment into oil might be the best way to shift away from the coal dependence in the energy sector. Additionally, pipelines have historically fallen under LCI, allowing for power grid expansion without having to constantly upgrade rail for even more coal mines for an ever increasing number of power plants. The offset is currently unknown, but it's far quicker to build a natural gas power plant compared to a entire damn.
 
We're already building lots of natural gas power, 2 autodice worth this FYP. If we scale that up to 3 or maybe even 4 autodice next FYP it would stop us from needing to build coal power plants, but I still don't see a way to make up for the missing hydro power even with just 1958-1964 demand levels, much less late 60's demand (power demand is ONLY EVER going to go up, I can promise that). And additionally, going to 3-4 autodice on gas power would suck up the entire hypothetical LCI focus, in which case why are we taking it just to spend it all on supporting the industries it can no longer build since it's all dedicated to gas power?

I don't think there's a magical solution to it, we just can't get 100% of our power from gas, and nuclear is still going to be small scale. We're going to either need LOTS of coal (and thus the canal) or hydro power, either way I think it's just too premature to shift away from an Infra focus. We're running literally the biggest country in the world, we're going to be needing an Infrastructure focus for decades longer yet, 1965 is way too early to move away from it.
 
[X] Plan Human-Centered Socialism
-[X]Avoid Commitment
-[X]Split Focus in a Grand Plan

[X] Export Platform
-[X]Defense Relevant Efforts
-[X]Refocus Towards Consumer Industry

[X] Plan Dueling Scars
-[X]Counterattack
-[X]Refocus Towards Consumer Industry

Made my own plan, other two are good too, I think we need to invest into our eletronics and consumer goods industry more if we want to jump into modernity and build a prosperous nation for everyone.
 
[X] Export Platform
-[X]Defense Relevant Efforts
-[X]Refocus Towards Consumer Industry

[X] Plan Dueling Scars
-[X]Counterattack
-[X]Refocus Towards Consumer Industry

This is the way towards economic engagement with the poorer SSRs and CMEA states, which will allow us to make up for the untenable shortfalls that our current sector size creates. To eventually match and overtake the US, this is what is needed.
 
[X] Plan Servicing Revenge
-[X]Counterattack
-[X]Prioritize Services Development

[X] Plan Dueling Scars
 
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[X] Plan Defending Our Course
-[X]Defense Relevant Efforts
-[X]Prioritize Services Development

[X] Plan Social Development
-[X]Defend Relevant Efforts
-[X]Social Development Priority

[X] Plan Aggressive Infra

[X] Plan Servicing Revenge
 
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[X] Plan Defending Our Course
-[X]Defense Relevant Efforts
-[X]Prioritize Services Development

[X] Plan Servicing Revenge
-[X]Counterattack
-[X]Prioritize Services Development
 
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