The French public is already sick of there boys coming back in coffins and that won't be stopping at all.
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition
- Thread starter Blackstar
- Start date
- Alt. History Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, maybe we'll get lucky and some of the same guys who OTL grew up into non-chickenhawk right wing nutjobs will sign up for the Foreign Legion and get zorched.
Terminator57
Southern trees bear a strange fruit
Hello,
As you're getting into cartography for the "Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition" quest, I'd like to recommend this mapping application Create your own Custom Map | MapChart, as it allows you to make subdivisions (as in the case of a partition of Algeria, for example) and legends, unlike what you're currently using.
I hope you will find it useful and I wish you a good day.
By the way, for my part, I think I'm feeling better - at least a little - so I think I'll fulfill my cartographic commitment on Sunday at the earliest.
- Location
- The great frozen north
I know i said I wanted to drop this, but this comment about how far your had to search old posts to get this incomplete image of France's former-ish African empire got me stuck thinking. And I start to think that asking our economist player character to occasionally make major cold war brinkmanship decisions is ill-suited to this media format.
If this was a videogame, we could have paused and tabbed over to the diplomacy screen and get a quick view of who's independent or not, who is communist-ish or otherwise who's in what sides' sphere of influence. But in this Quest, getting info about the status of West Africa requires going back to search through old updates for scraps of information, specifically through the parts of them that readers often gloss over because they're sideshows to the main[1] economic game, which are in-game years old. It's quite the break from the economic side, when even if looking up past events is necessary it's often subjects that are prime in the threadviet's memory. More casual readers won't put in the effort, they'll want to vote based on recent vibes like "yeet all the imperialists".
I think I understand now why the heavy geopolitical stuff turned off some questers, even in cases where it didn't have serious consequences.
[1]I am not sure how integral the QM considers the non-economist work to be to the quest experience, but given how the quest gets talked about to newbies and how LONG it has been, in-game or IRL months, since we last had to deal with stuff outside of CEMA internal matters, this quest intentionally or no certainly signals itself as an economy game.
Last edited:
CrabMonarchy
Allegedly Dutch
- Location
- the Netherlands, apparently
I am a little conflicted on the subject myself, since on the one hand operating with incomplete information that we have to dig through old reports and half-remembered briefings to find *is* authentic to the actual experience of Klimenko, who is after all running the MNKh, not the MFA or MGB (and also to be honest I do enjoy the search process a little lol, but that's just me). Like, this is apparently kinda just how OTL Soviet foreign policy worked, where the actual subject matter expert would get sidelined and ignored while a bunch of dubiously informed ministers make decisions based off vibes and aesthetics. On the other hand though, I do get how it can be intensely frustrating when important details slip by and end up leading to serious missteps, so....idk. I have rolled around the idea of doing more regular Discordburo-to-Threadviet information transfers instead of just the occasional post on a specific subject, but I'm not sure if I could keep that up long-term since sorting through the huge amounts of chatter that the Discord generates to find the relevant and useful bits [1] is a lot of work (especially since a lot of the Discord discussion is speculation, minor details, or speculation on minor details, to say nothing of the discussion of Blackstar's other quests or the general nonsense we regularly clog the channel up with). I've also considered doing external politics summaries like what I did for Nigeria and West Africa when future crises come up, which shouldn't be as much of a burden as the previous idea, but....le shrug idk, we'll see if I feel up to it the next time a crisis happens.
[1] Although I suppose that while we're on the subject, I might as well transfer this recent WoB which came up while tossing around ideas for next turn because we weren't sure if the Kiev Machine Building Plant was purely for building Bagger 288skis and whatnot or if it included other types of tooling as well:
...and on a semi-related note, I realize now that I don't think we've ever actually posted Klimenko's image in thread, so gaze upon the visage of the most normal MNKh minister so far (albeit that bar is buried so deep it's reached the mantle) as he appeared in the OTL 70s:
Last edited:
Cannon Omake: Notable Books of the 1970s.
- Location
- Fort Worth, TX
Despite the rising standard of living across Europe and Asia after the Second World War, many people were becoming concerned over environmental issues such as air and water pollution, growing waste problems from mining and oil refining along with desertification and loss of natural spaces. Petitions and proposals were submitted to various government agencies but little seemed to be done. Many citizens, especially those who had grown up in the years of the Civil War and the Patriotic War assumed this was the price of progress and that later generations would clean up the mess with better technologies and resources. It would take the publishing of a science fiction book, which initially did not enjoy widespread success, to spark discussion and debate on the future environmental movement.
Репортаж из Магории (Report from Magoria) written by environmental scientist Andrei Abram Ignatiev in 1971, was one of the first science fiction books to deal with the subjects of cultural sensitivity, environmental stewardship, consumerism and water conservation. Set in a universe a thousand years from now, a Stellar Federation diplomat by the name of Matvei is sent to the planet of Magoria where scientists and archaeologists are studying a remnants of a past civilization that had waged a series of brutal wars against each other using Atomic, Biological and Chemical weapons, leaving large amounts of the planet contaminated. During his travels across the planet, he meets with a group of nomads called the Gardeners who carry clean water between settlements, trading various items and worshiping a religion by the name of Balance. After fighting off a group of bandits, he is invited to learn more from the religious leaders, called Caretakers, about the Balance religious practices.
During his meetings with the Caretakers he finds out that the Gardeners are descendants of various scientists and their families, who tried to warn the various countries and cities about rampant industrialization and pollution. The various leaders ignored them and as resources became scarce began to wage conflicts to secure more resources. While more technologies and practices were instituted to conserve resources it was too little, too late. The Gardeners began to move out of the cities, while a few stayed behind to save civilization, becoming Martyrs as they will imprisoned and killed. When the wars ended due to exhaustion, the Gardeners set up trade caravans to preserve cultural and intellectual knowledge and save refugees. Over time a more sustainable civilization was formed with the Gardeners as a neutral party and Balance being a way to teach concepts of preservation and recycling. By the end of the book, Matvei agrees to write a report that the Federation respect the Gardeners as emissaries of the planetary government and that Balance is a scientific concept to be respected instead of religious superstition.
Ignatiev would receive a modest income from the book, but he exposure to various groups and members of society would lead him to be a popular figure at science fiction conventions across Europe. According to him "I do not wish to change the world overnight, merely to start the conversation". That he did.
Notable Books of the 1970s.
Репортаж из Магории (Report from Magoria) written by environmental scientist Andrei Abram Ignatiev in 1971, was one of the first science fiction books to deal with the subjects of cultural sensitivity, environmental stewardship, consumerism and water conservation. Set in a universe a thousand years from now, a Stellar Federation diplomat by the name of Matvei is sent to the planet of Magoria where scientists and archaeologists are studying a remnants of a past civilization that had waged a series of brutal wars against each other using Atomic, Biological and Chemical weapons, leaving large amounts of the planet contaminated. During his travels across the planet, he meets with a group of nomads called the Gardeners who carry clean water between settlements, trading various items and worshiping a religion by the name of Balance. After fighting off a group of bandits, he is invited to learn more from the religious leaders, called Caretakers, about the Balance religious practices.
During his meetings with the Caretakers he finds out that the Gardeners are descendants of various scientists and their families, who tried to warn the various countries and cities about rampant industrialization and pollution. The various leaders ignored them and as resources became scarce began to wage conflicts to secure more resources. While more technologies and practices were instituted to conserve resources it was too little, too late. The Gardeners began to move out of the cities, while a few stayed behind to save civilization, becoming Martyrs as they will imprisoned and killed. When the wars ended due to exhaustion, the Gardeners set up trade caravans to preserve cultural and intellectual knowledge and save refugees. Over time a more sustainable civilization was formed with the Gardeners as a neutral party and Balance being a way to teach concepts of preservation and recycling. By the end of the book, Matvei agrees to write a report that the Federation respect the Gardeners as emissaries of the planetary government and that Balance is a scientific concept to be respected instead of religious superstition.
Ignatiev would receive a modest income from the book, but he exposure to various groups and members of society would lead him to be a popular figure at science fiction conventions across Europe. According to him "I do not wish to change the world overnight, merely to start the conversation". That he did.
Notable Books of the 1970s.
I'm sorry to say this but he looks like he is wearing a bad wig or uses oil to style his hair with.I am a little conflicted on the subject myself, since on the one hand operating with incomplete information that we have to dig through old reports and half-remembered briefings to find *is* authentic to the actual experience of Klimenko, who is after all running the MNKh, not the MFA or MGB (and also to be honest I do enjoy the search process a little lol, but that's just me). Like, this is apparently kinda just how OTL Soviet foreign policy worked, where the actual subject matter expert would get sidelined and ignored while a bunch of dubiously informed ministers make decisions based off vibes and aesthetics. On the other hand though, I do get how it can be intensely frustrating when important details slip by and end up leading to serious missteps, so....idk. I have rolled around the idea of doing more regular Discordburo-to-Threadviet information transfers instead of just the occasional post on a specific subject, but I'm not sure if I could keep that up long-term since sorting through the huge amounts of chatter that the Discord generates to find the relevant and useful bits [1] is a lot of work (especially since a lot of the Discord discussion is speculation, minor details, or speculation on minor details, to say nothing of the discussion of Blackstar's other quests or the general nonsense we regularly clog the channel up with). I've also considered doing external politics summaries like what I did for Nigeria and West Africa when future crises come up, which shouldn't be as much of a burden as the previous idea, but....le shrug idk, we'll see if I feel up to it the next time a crisis happens.
[1] Although I suppose that while we're on the subject, I might as well transfer this recent WoB which came up while tossing around ideas for next turn because we weren't sure if the Kiev Machine Building Plant was purely for building Bagger 288skis and whatnot or if it included other types of tooling as well:
...and on a semi-related note, I realize now that I don't think we've ever actually posted Klimenko's image in thread, so gaze upon the visage of the most normal MNKh minister so far (albeit that bar is buried so deep it's reached the mantle) as he appeared in the OTL 70s:
- Location
- The great frozen north
The USSR having absolutely dysfunctional decision loops for major strategic decisions is historical?!?. What. I can't. How did they even manage to accomplish anything OTL? Well, I take my comments back then, this quest is simulating the stupidity of the USSR perfectly. Seems the MNKh's sanity is the exception rather than the norm, ouch. And I very much see why some players don't want to be involved in such as mess. Also I know this sounds harsh, but are there any good academic sources on this dysfunction? This is one of those "I don't disbelieve you but I want a better citation than 'some guy on the internet' if I share it with anyone else" anecdotes.
That said, doing "external politics summaries" of Discord lore for future crises would be very welcome, very useful. Though I hope we'll get at least 5 years of comfy economics before the next one.
Regarding the Kyiv plant: Our mining industry is doing OK. If the machine building plant is mostly mining stuff rather than patching a broader hole in the economy (as the description makes it sound) its priority drops a peg. We still should start it before this plan ends, but it's not urgent, and not having to do it right next turn frees up room for High Profitability heavy industry projects that need to be built early to have time to spool up.
- Location
- UTC+0
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They
Here, as for sources, the Wilson digital center actually has the actual working notes of meetings in the Presidium in regards to the Soviet intervention in Hungary if you are interested. I read them a few months ago, and what Blackstar said in the post above tracks with this. Shepilov was just a voice in the room despite his position as foreign minister.
Mind you, this is not specifically a USSR problem. In the US, the President can and has ignored the Secretary of State in the past, hell, Reagan took policy advice from his astrologer of all people more than many of the people surrounding him. Its supposedly the reason he became friendly with Gorbachev in the first place.
Astrologer who helped guide President Reagan's schedule dies at 87
Nancy Reagan began consulting Quigley after the 1981 assassination attempt on her husband. She wanted to keep him from getting shot again, Nancy Reagan wrote in her 1989 memoir, "My Turn." Entertainer Merv Griffin had told her that Quigley had predicted that the day the president was shot was...
www.pbs.org
At the end of the day, "expert opinions" are in any government something to be listened to and ignored at the politicians' convenience. Sometimes for the better, sometimes (usually) for the worse.
Last edited:
CrabMonarchy
Allegedly Dutch
- Location
- the Netherlands, apparently
From Soviet Foreign Policy Towards Egypt (1979), by Karen Dawisha (some sections highlighted for emphasis):
Article: After the death of Stalin, the top Party organs began to reassert their traditional and pre-eminent role in the making of foreign policy. Even Foreign Minister Molotov, speaking at the 20th Party Congress, was forced to concede that 'never before has our Party Central Committee and its Praesidium [the Politburo] been engaged so actively with questions of foreign policy as during the present period'. While the main function of the Party Congress, which meets on average once every four years, is to announce and adopt the current line on foreign policy for the Middle East and other areas, as set out by the leadership, the Central Committee and the Secretariat, which are nominally elected by the Congress, do have a more active role.
Article: Turning to the question of the Politburo's sphere of competence, or the extent of its monopoly over Soviet policy-making, in the realm of Soviet foreign policy and Soviet-Egyptian relations, the Politburo does seem to have involved itself in a surprising amount of detail. Brezhnev stated at the 25th Party Congress that the Politburo has given 'a great deal of attention to various aspects of the country's external political activity and the strengthening of its defences'. It certainly seems clear that the Politburo, and especially its General Secretary, is involved in drawing up the general line of Soviet foreign policy on such important matters as East-West relations and Soviet policy toward the socialist bloc and the national liberation movements. Although one would not have expected Politburo members to be actively involved in the minutiae of Soviet-Egyptian relations, nevertheless on several occasions they did concern themselves with the actual direction of Soviet policy. In 1958, when the Iraqi revolution and the Lebanese civil war seemed poised to spark off a major Western intervention to prevent the overthrow of the remaining pro-Western regimes, Nasser flew to Moscow to appeal for direct Soviet aid. Heikal, who accompanied the Egyptian President, relates that Nasser had private talks for two hours with Khrushchev who steadfastly refused to intervene. When Nasser persisted, Khruschchev 'went off to discuss Nasser's request with members of the Politburo who were waiting in a nearby dacha'. They agreed to hold strictly limited manoeuvres on the Bulgarian-Turkish border, but made it clear that Nasser could expect nothing more. Moreover, although the Party Organs Department controls the nomenklatura for the position of Soviet ambassador to Cairo, it would seem that the Politburo actually chooses the candidate. This was confirmed by Vladimir Vinogradov, the Soviet ambassador to Cairo, who told Heikal in 1970 that 'before I came here there was a meeting of the Politburo and they decided to nominate me for the Cairo Embassy'.
Article: In negotiating with Nasser, Khrushchev had bypassed the Foreign Ministry, using his own emissary, Dmitri Shepilov, who replaced Molotov as Foreign Minister following the latter's demotion. However, Shepilov himself was dismissed in 1957 following similar charges of using the Foreign Ministry to obstruct the implementation of Party policy. Thereafter, the International Department of the Central Committee seems to have assumed greater responsibility for the formulation of policy towards Egypt, at least until April 1973, when the Foreign Minister was once again included within the Politburo as a full member.
Article: It is difficult to assess the effect of Gromyko's promotion on the Foreign Ministry's influence in the making of Soviet policy towards Egypt. Interviews with officials in the Soviet Ministry of Foreign Affairs confirmed that the role of the Ministry in influencing the formulation and implementation of Soviet policy towards Egypt is constantly held in check by the Party. Party units within the Ministry ensure the implementation of central directives, while the activities of the Central Committee apparat largely parallel the work of the Ministry in the provision of information and the formulation of policy. Although the Ministry does now have direct access to the Politburo through Gromyko, it is not clear that this has led to a corresponding increase in the Ministry's role in policy-making. A Foreign Ministry official in charge of relations with Egypt claimed when interviewed that in the pre-decisional stage, the Ministry's role was to make proposals to the Politburo through the Central Committee apparat. The acceptance of any proposal, according to this official, was certainly not taken for granted; and the dependence of the Ministry on the Central Committee as a channel of access to policy formulation had not been substantially affected by Gromyko's promotion to the Politburo.
Article: In examining the most frequent channels of communication between the Soviet and Egyptian leaders, an interesting and surprisingly regular pattern emerged. After 1967, with the buildup of Soviet military influence in Egypt, many of the most important communications between Moscow and the Soviet embassy in Cairo appear to have gone via the Ministry of Defence, completely bypassing the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. A direct telephone link was established between the office of the Military Mission in Cairo and the Ministry of Defence in 1970, and Brezhnev reportedly was kept informed by Marshal Grechko of events in Egypt, particularly during the War of Attrition and the October 1973 war. While the Soviet ambassador in Cairo was responsible for most of the direct dealings with the top Egyptian leaders, he often relayed messages directly from Brezhnev, the Politburo, the International Department of the Central Committee and the Ministry of Defence. It is interesting that in all of the accounts of dealings between the two sides published by Heikal and Sadat, not a single instance was cited by them in which the Soviet ambassador delivered messages from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Of course, the embassy in Cairo must have had dealings with that Ministry, but it would appear that these may have been of such routine detail as not to warrant reporting by the Egyptian side.
For what it's worth, some of these quotes reflect the OTL party-state struggle, which hasn't taken the same shape TTL since Mik's reforms came down hard in favor of the state and put a lot of work into decoupling the two (albeit not perfectly, of course, which is why the Politburo ended up being the ones to vote on the Libyan crisis), but you can still see the same tendency for the MFA to get systematically ignored and bypassed by the General-Secretary, the Central Committee, or other Soviet institutions, with the example given in the last quote of the Soviet military essentially usurping control of relations with Egypt from the MFA with the implicit blessing of the General-Secretary and the Central Committee being especially mind-boggling.
We can also consult the 1976 CIA report The Soviet Foreign Policy Apparatus, which describes how, uh:
Article: The elevation of Foreign Minister Gromyko to the Politburo indicates that the relationship between Party and government institutions at the apex of the decision-making process is approximately equal. However, at lower levels the Central Committee's International and Bloc Departments appear to have a more decisive role than the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA), even though foreign policy is ostensibly a governmental function. Moreover, these party institutions exercise general oversight over implementation of leadership decisions by the MFA and other non-Party institutions.
Article: "State" Foreign Policy. It was once believed on the basis of their overt activities that these two CC departments were responsible solely for inter-Party ties. In fact, analysis of their internal bureaucratic functions shows that they play an exceedingly important part in the formulation and implementation of "state" foreign policy* decisions. They serve in effect as the Party's "general staff" by formulating policy positions, devising overall strategy and tactics, planning policy programs, and coordinating policy operations. In doing so, the two departments have clear precedence over the chief government executive body, the Council of Ministers, and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
Article: Relations with the Foreign Ministry. The most direct form of party control over policy implementation is exercised through supervision of the Foreign Ministry by the CC Secretariat and its two foreign affairs departments, much in the same manner, for example, in which the CC Agriculture Department oversees the Ministry of Agriculture. These Party organs cannot, of course, duplicate the detailed technical work of the MFA, but the evidence indicates that there is continuous coordination between Party and government organizations and personnel.
[snipped]
However, Gromyko's elevation to the Politburo...and his close working relationship with Brezhnev raises the possibility that he personally and his ministry as a whole have become somewhat more independent of close CC supervision in the same way in which they have been removed from day-to-day oversight by Kosygin and the Council of Ministers. There is some evidence to show that, while the Ministry is not completely autonomous from the Party apparatus, regular Party supervision has gradually shifted from the CC to Brezhnev's personal secretariat, at least on major policy questions.
[snipped]
There is reason to believe that the CC foreign departments may also have responsibility for approving the Foreign Ministry's yearly work program for its headquarters' operations and embassies and consulates, for reviewing the discussions of its governing body, the Collegium, and for coordinating policy statements made publicly or through diplomatic channels. This is the case, at least, in several East European countries.
The source does also offer some insight into how the Politburo specifically worked on foreign policy:
Article: The Poliburo and Foreign Affairs. Traditionally an institution mainly concerned with domestic policy, during the 1970s the Politburo has become more actively and deeply involved in foreign affairs. According to several top Party leaders, it devotes as much as half its time to questions of foreign policy and diplomacy with which it is sometimes concerned on a daily basis.
In theory, all voting members have equal rights and responsibilities for determining policy decisions regardless of whether their collateral assignments in the Party or government involve foreign affairs. In practice, the Politburo's enlarged focus on external relations and the demands of efficiency in decision-making have resulted in a division of power and responsibility within the top leadership. The predominant influence over both routine, day-to-day decision-making and crisis management is wielded by Brezhnev personally, several other senior political figures, and the bureaucratic chieftains who manage the key government national security hierarchies. The role of this "inner cabinet" for foreign affairs is institutionalized in a Politburo sub-committee for political-military affairs, the Defense Council.
Now, this sounds all well and good! The Politburo has a dedicated group for foreign policy, which includes relevant experts! However, as per Dawisha:
Article: In addition to the Politburo, the military also has considerable representation in the Defence Council, a body which recently has been rehabilitated after losing the position of pre-eminence it enjoyed in the decision-making process under Stalin. Although little is known of its activities or composition, its existence is in fact enshrined in the new constitution which in Article 121 states that the Praesidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet 'forms the USSR Defence Council and ratifies its composition'. Reports suggest that Brezhnev is its chairman, with the chairman of the Council of Ministers (Kosygin), the Minister of Defence (first Grechko and then Ustinov), the Party secretary in charge of defence industries (Ustinov and his successor, although one has not yet been named), the Foreign Minister (Gromyko), the KGB head (Andropov), the Military-Industrial Commission head (Smirnov), the Chief of the General Staff (Ogarkov) and other senior military officers among its members.
*Technically* the MFA has representation on this body, but you may have noticed that over half the membership is composed of various military or military-adjacent personnel, which is not the sort of thing that suggests that the MFA has a lot of weight in these discussions. To cap things off, have this quote from the CIA which concisely sums up the role of the MFA:
Article: The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is not in charge of foreign policy, only diplomacy.
I did also review a few other sources which touched on this tendency to ignore the experts, such as The Soviet Union and the Suez Crisis by Laurent Rucker, in The 1956 War: Collusion and Rivalry in the Middle East (with many thanks to comrade @Vi'Talzin for providing a copy), which describes an incident where Shepilov (not yet the Minister of Foreign Affairs, but nonetheless acting as Khrushchev's man on the ground) specifically told the Presidium that the USSR should not attend an upcoming conference on the Suez Crisis, but the Presidium promptly rejected his advice, declaring that they would be attending and telling him to "draw up the list of delegates and to prepare a set of draft instructions" (Laurent, page 69). In the end, however, Dawisha's book and the CIA report gave the clearest views of the ways in which Soviet foreign policy decision-making was a profoundly ad-hoc affair.
It's a little ironic that you drew that conclusion from that WoB, since I was arguing the opposite when I asked the question lol. My position was that we should do Kiev next turn since it's not just building mining-specific equipment but also more general-purpose machinery, as seen by how the blurb implies that it'll help rebuild from the collapse of Gorky:
The entire reason I asked the question was to clear up whether that was a correct assumption, although I guess this is another moment where Discord information might be influencing my viewpoint, so here:
Sorry for not mentioning this earlier, it slipped my mind until your response jogged my memory, but I hope it adds some context to my personal opinion that we should do Kiev sooner rather than later.
Last edited:
obssesednuker
Commander of 10 Million Men
- Location
- In the Kremlin, activating Perimtr.
I mean, it makes sense. Modern government's are vast and complicated entities with tons of competing interests. That inevitably means the most powerful voice in the room on an issue would not necessarily also be the most informed one.
- Location
- The great frozen north
The first thing our first minister did was to recognize they had no idea what they're doing and build a council of educated people to help them out. The rest of the Politburo could take a few hints from the MNKh.
OK thank you for correcting that misunderstanding. So it was as necessary as I first thought. Well, next turn will be a tight one in heavy industry, but at minimum we should start it with a single die then.
Lies! Everyone knows that Comrade Klimenko only uses clean water from the Saratov bottling plant to keep his locks looking luscious.
Part of it is their opposition was usually about as dysfunctional as they were. You think that British governments or American presidents make their decisions any more functionally?
If we are importing a significant amount of our modern tooling for the many, many enterprises we construct, and the US is the main exporter of such to us, that rather implies that the US is exporting huge piles of cutting edge tooling to us. If Ashbrook really wants to start a trade war, is he also going to have state-led investments in American industry to try to provide a new market?
And what are we exporting to the US to pay for all this stuff? I can't imagine even the more chill Humphrey, Johnson or Kefauver administrations trading with the USSR on terms other than "no dollars, no exports". I know paint and pharmaceuticals were important in the past, but I am not aware of us keeping a particular competitive edge in those products post-war, let alone exporting enough volume of such things to pay for high end machinery, so with all our investment in consumer goods... Are we exporting consumer goods to the US in return for American heavy industrial products?
Well, that was the players putting their thumbs on the scales.
Remember, when the quest started, consulting educated people meant consulting people tainted by the Tsarist regime and its problems. Sergo and Litvinov both bit that bullet in their own departments and Mikoyan spread statist deviationism once in power, but I am not surprised that much of the apparatus still has an ingrained suspicion of experts.
Regards,
fasquardon
Ashheap
Friend-shape little shrimp smoking remnants
- Location
- Bottom of the pot
My first thought would be steel, a butt load of steel. We recently triple lapped the US in steel production.
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
We also have some large gold reserves, as well as access to lots of rare earth metals and useful things like titanium in large supply.
One of my favorite historical Cold War tidbits was how the SR-71 Blackbird, the infamous spy plane for the Americans, was made mostly out of titanium sourced mainly from the Soviet Union.
One of my favorite historical Cold War tidbits was how the SR-71 Blackbird, the infamous spy plane for the Americans, was made mostly out of titanium sourced mainly from the Soviet Union.
- Location
- Northish
Something like this I imagine
-Steel by the freighter load
-Gold and other precious metals
-Petroleum products from paint to chemical precursors
-Cheap basic electronics
Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Textbooks as well.
Maybe also cars, not a ton, but enough of them to be worth it.
Ashheap
Friend-shape little shrimp smoking remnants
- Location
- Bottom of the pot
But the real question is how will the Russian catfish affect the American trout population.
Last edited:
Ahhh So that will be the reason why the mutant catfish will not like whatever animal people becomes the dominant player of post nuclear America.
- Location
- The United States
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Petroleum-derived products, basic HI inputs(steel/cement), cheaper/lower-end machinery, textiles/mass-manufactured consumer products, and some specialty equipment.And what are we exporting to the US to pay for all this stuff? I can't imagine even the more chill Humphrey, Johnson or Kefauver administrations trading with the USSR on terms other than "no dollars, no exports". I know paint and pharmaceuticals were important in the past, but I am not aware of us keeping a particular competitive edge in those products post-war, let alone exporting enough volume of such things to pay for high end machinery, so with all our investment in consumer goods... Are we exporting consumer goods to the US in return for American heavy industrial products?
Now I'm imagining some politician giving some anti communist speech at a new military base while the army engineers that made it give him a look because a lot of the basic materials they used were from the USSR.
- Location
- The United States
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Vote Called for: [X]Advocate for Accepting the Terms
Political consolidation and rolls inbound
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rJoB7y6Ncs
Political consolidation and rolls inbound
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rJoB7y6Ncs
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Pronouns
- He/Him