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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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The fortress towns need another phase of shell plants before we can do them, the text says "these are likely to be effectively indefensible" unless we add a larger shell supply, new non-artillery weapons, or both. It's not that the military are cowards who can't be bothered to protect some more towns it's that the entire defensive paradigm of a fortress town as currently designed sucks down hella shells and we simply don't have enough production. Produce more shells, fortress towns are viable again, it's pretty simple.

I disagree that better tube artillery will magically solve it though, bringing down the CEP will save a couple percentage points of ammo expenditure but it's not going to solve the shell supply issues. After years of producing the new artillery and reequipping millions and millions of units, we might reduce shell expenditure by like 15%. That's not a viable solution to the problems we're having right now. The army has tagged the shell plants as one of their High Priority projects, and notably they haven't given the new tube artillery development or the rockets the same tag.

This is the entire reason we did the interdepartmental communications, so we don't have to fumble around and armchair general our way into trying to guess what the army needs most. They just tell us, and they're telling us they want shell plants before they want universal rockets or new tubes or whatever else. Just fuckin' listen to them, a bunch of civilian bureaucrats playing armchair field marshal are not more in touch with what the military needs than the actual generals actually asking for more shell plants.
 
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Crazycryodude said:
The army has tagged the shell plants as one of their High Priority projects, and notably they haven't given the new tube artillery development or the rockets the same tag.
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Note, it is not that they don't want those other projects, it is that those other projects are not as immediately crucial as making sure that they have a shell pile. It is not that they are bad, or not important, but that they are not as immediate a problem if NOD decides that B1 needs to die as not having enough shells.
 
To me, what the Military is asking for is not strictly Speaking more shells, it's more long range/artillery firepower for which the only option is tube arty. They absolutely need shells, but I think we should also look at other projects to give them more options for long range.
 
If we happen to have spare dice laying around then sure, do projects that aren't High Priority but are nice to have, it's not like there's a single project on the docket that's USELESS all the useless stuff gets cut before it makes it to our desk. But we'll have spare dice laying around approximately never, and I will not support ignoring the military's clear priority requests because we think we have a better idea than they do. If the generals are desperate for more shells now, we build them more shells now, and figure out the new artillery park once there's no longer a giant flashing weak point in our supply chains. They're not asking for more shells in 3 years when more efficient tubes start to reduce consumption they're asking for more shells next quarter so that NOD can't just roll them with a concentrated offensive that burns through the 2 days of ammo we have stockpiled.
 
Ithillid said:
One you get next turn, and the other you get in Q1 of next year, and is the capstone technology for the Scrin pool.
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Ithillid said:
I mean that it is the last tech you got from that pool. Everything else will be coming earlier.
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Well people, please make a bit of slack in your plans, because we will be needing it for R&D and deployment soon. It looks like all the scrin tech is opening up by next year. That is six tech project trees IIRC. That is also not counting possible laser deployment.

Oshha said:
the grants that Julian will be supporting are only bad if you are ideologically opposed to grants
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Grants are holes where our budget doesn't come back from. They are not just a one time expenditure, but an ongoing expense.


Simon_Jester said:
And of course we can get some very useful Expand the Strategic Planning Apparatus options that increase our capabilities for -4 Capital Goods, directly boosting our own ability to Get Shit Done.
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I want that one too, but it is so expensive on the capital goods front. Maybe we want to consider that other chip plant opening up? It wouldn't have the 1200 progress cost before getting returns.
 
wakshazi said:
Grants are holes where our budget doesn't come back from. They are not just a one time expenditure, but an ongoing expense.
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And in exchange for taking up resources every turn, Grants give us something every turn. It is no different from our actions except it is automated and may not be as cost-effective as some of the actions we could take instead of doing grants. They might not be a preferred choice for whatever reason, but don't pretend that grants don't give us anything.
 
Alo357 said:
Building military units is something for the military to worry about, not the Treasury. We are the GDI Treasury, thusly we don't have anything to do with the armed forces beside fund major projects or expansions that their existing budget will not cover. Additionally, the military has said it would now be able to begin supporting further expansion and is eager to begin pushing back against Nod.

Something we will have to keep in mind though is that we still need to diversify the armament of the fortress towns with rockets or sonic artillery or something to make them more defensible (as per the dialogue on the choice).
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Look at the text in the post. We can't do it. They are indefensible.
 
wakshazi said:
I want that one too, but it is so expensive on the capital goods front. Maybe we want to consider that other chip plant opening up? It wouldn't have the 1200 progress cost before getting returns.
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Tokyo is designed to mainly produce consumer electronics, not industrial ones that would be classified as capital goods. Tokyo Phases 1-3 would cost 875 points and produce 10 consumer goods plus 4 capital goods (with the capital goods only coming on completion of Phase 3). It would also consume 4 points of energy and 4 points of labor.

Compare to Boston Phase 4 which is 1200 points of progress, to produce 16 capital goods and 8 consumer goods, while consuming 4 points of energy and 2 points of labor. Boston is more efficient in pretty much every way, an extra 325 points for 400% more capital goods and nearly as many consumer goods is an awesome deal, it doesn't even consume any more electricity and it's a bit MORE labor efficient to boot. Not that labor is a super pressing problem right now but in a couple years it will be and saving a few points here and there pushes back the crunch time.
 
xpentakill said:
Look at the text in the post. We can't do it. They are indefensible.
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Yes, as I acknowledged and mentioned at the end of my post. Your argument was that we need more military units to protect them. That is not what the text in the post says nor is that a Treasury problem. As the text says we need to diversify the armament which means rocket artillery, new and more varied guns, sonic artillery or ideally some combination of the above.

As Cryo has said, the military really wants more shell production but also wants the URLS to bring back rocket artillery and new artillery tubes designed for the purpose rather than the repurposed Predator guns we've been using. The solution is not to throw more bodies at the problem, we are not the WW2 Soviet military, the solution as mentioned in the text is to diversify the load out and up shell production.
 
ZOCOM's sonic artillery is just a normal gun that fires a sonic shell, and it's mostly the hover chassis that the work goes into not the gun, I doubt it would really help with the Fortress Town defenses. Rocket artillery would, but then we're just shifting the factories we need from artillery shells to rockets and still have to build a bunch of ammo production.

Lasers and railguns are probably the actual golden bullet for "diversifying" Fortress Town armaments. We need rapid fire railguns in mass deployment plus the new railgun ammo development so they can be loaded with anti-personnel rounds not just the armor-piercing darts, and maybe the rapid fire lasers will develop into a viable stationary turret emplacement with enough time and love. Different flavors of artillery just shift around the specifics of what kind of consumable factory we need to build, lasers on the other hand need no ammo at all. Railguns technically need ammo but it's orders of magnitude simpler to put some ball bearings in a conductive can and start blasting hypervelocity canister shot like it's 1807 again than it is to build traditional explosive shells.
 
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DinoHank said:
To me, what the Military is asking for is not strictly Speaking more shells, it's more long range/artillery firepower for which the only option is tube arty. They absolutely need shells, but I think we should also look at other projects to give them more options for long range.
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Yes, but not at the expense of, y'know, actually giving them the shells.

Like, one of the long range options is MLRS batteries. Our generals know what the potential of MLRS is. Many of them served in the Second Tiberium War, when MLRS weapons were still a major component of GDI's force mix. If they don't see renewing the MLRS battery production lines as a priority, there's a reason for that.

Let's not rationalize ourselves into ignoring the very simple and very clear preference the Ground Forces have expressed.
 
[X] Julian Taylor
[X] Sarang Mikoyan

Personally, I am not convinced that Thoki would be the best choice. His approach to Tiberium just worries me. If that makes me a conservative old fart, so be it.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Let's not rationalize ourselves into ignoring the very simple and very clear preference the Ground Forces have expressed
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It's not a dig against it because I think it'd be a good addition to the arsenal. But like MLRS when made is going to be shell factories 2 electric boogaloo.

Swedish15 said:
Personally, I am not convinced that Thoki would be the best choice. His approach to Tiberium just worries me. If that makes me a conservative old fart, so be it.
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Kind of agree but is what it is. I do worry about the side most people want: Tiberium experimentation. I do not like poking that material at all. Or like using it to poke people.
 
TheFourthman said:
Kind of agree but is what it is. I do worry about the side most people want: Tiberium experimentation. I do not like poking that material at all. Or like using it to poke people.
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I think one of the reasons why people want to poke tiberium is that it going to change soon, so experimentation could be useful if not necessary going forward. It would be necessary if we want to go forward with treating people with say rock lung on a relatively short timescale.

Speaking of that I wonder if new ways to deal with Tib will be a project for us or need to be stared in background research like with scrin tech.
 
TheFourthman said:
Kind of agree but is what it is. I do worry about the side most people want: Tiberium experimentation. I do not like poking that material at all. Or like using it to poke people.
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I could agree with that point of view if we would not know that tiberium will evolve beyond our mitigation efforts anyway.

It is not a situation where if Thoki wouldn't poke it, it wouldn't be a problem, it is a situation where only new methods of dealing with it can help us mitigate the spread. And Thoki is the only one willing to try and find these new methods.
 
I absolutely understand that point of view, and do not claim by any degree that I have to be right. But I've seen what Tiberium Experimentation can do during Renegade, and my twenty-year-old self had plenty of nightmares about it.

Sorry, I have to go with my gut.
 
sort of wondering now that society is no longer on the brink of collapse and quality of life is more or less going back to its prewar conditions can we expect people to start asking questions about the Scirn specifically what the GDI is going to if the come back ? , now that everyone knows aliens exist and behave like imperialistic Europe when ever they find a nation they think can't fight back , like I don't remember any sort of reaction to the fact that an alien invasion interrupted the last war you'd think that sort of stick out in the public conciseness
 
tenchifew said:
I could agree with that point of view if we would not know that tiberium will evolve beyond our mitigation efforts anyway
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We have two possible Scrin techs we know of.

And poking it could mean Tiberium evolves the next turn as opposed to x many dice roll in the future.

Swedish15 said:
I absolutely understand that point of view, and do not claim by any degree that I have to be right. But I've seen what Tiberium Experimentation can do during Renegade, and my twenty-year-old self had plenty of nightmares about it.

Sorry, I have to go with my gut.
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Same. Renegade left a bad taste for Tiberium in my mouth.
 
Why some people against testing it because it's like telling the military to fight with bolt action rifles because they worked well in the past so they must work now and will forever be good enough?
 
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