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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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@Snowfire To add to that, if only in effort to give an answer that tries to address the issue at its core, I think it is less of a principle thing, and more of an institutional one.

Her argument in this case would be that by paying coin for living beings, that it will prop up slavery, encourage more acts of enslavement of sentient beings, which could end up sweeping up innocents who aren't made of concentrated primordial evil as victims of circumstance.

If we create demand for it, then the demand will be filled. That is her issue. The filling part.
 
Crake said:
If we create demand for it, then the demand will be filled. That is her issue. The filling part.
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Which is why we should keep things in-house.

She has no problem with the catching part or the sacrificing part, it's the buying that bothers her (that is the part where we give away gold, very draconic of her), so we can just hire fiend catchers directly, to work for us and only for us. Fiend catching is a valuable skill to have in-house anyway.
 
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Crake said:
@Snowfire To add to that, if only in effort to give an answer that tries to address the issue at its core, I think it is less of a principle thing, and more of an institutional one.

Her argument in this case would be that by paying coin for living beings, that it will prop up slavery, encourage more acts of enslavement of sentient beings, which could end up sweeping up innocents who aren't made of concentrated primordial evil as victims of circumstance.

If we create demand for it, then the demand will be filled. That is her issue. The filling part.
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And if that is her baseline, then she desperately needs psychological aid at the same level as Rhaella did when she was resurrected. This sort of pathological focus never ends well. We have learnt to balance this. She has not.
 
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065tdsa said:
Which is why we should keep things in house. She has no problem with the catching part or the sacrificing part, it's the buying that bothers her (which is the part where we give away gold, very draconic of her), so we can just hire fiend catchers directly, to work for us and only for us.
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This, +1000.

Paying no coin for sacrifices is fine, because it is demand fulfilled on an as-need basis.

By paying coin, we breathe life into something she loathes with every fiber of her being, when she has already been willing to absolve and allow the atonement of other fiends in the past, knowing it is possible concluding that in the end it is only on the basis that they are currently enemies and have committed reprehensible acts that makes her fine with it, less so that every single one of these beings should be put in chains and used as nothing more as fuel to slake a deep thirst, because it could lead to a slippery slope.

It's not a perfect argument, but it has some valid points.

Edit: It has some valid points, I wouldn't personally agree with it, or any slippery slope argument.

Dany believes in the slippery slope because of Tiamat. Overcoming that issue by going "yeah don't worry you're not like Tiamat at all" doesn't help. She doesn't believe it. Convincing her of it? That takes consistent acts which are diametrically opposed to anything Tiamat would do, some of which we argued against.
 
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Why would we buy fiends to sacrifice?

Aren't we an equal opportunity employer...?

I mean. We have an un deviling ritual and an un demoning snake right?

Daemons...

I can't think of literally anything nice to say about daemons. They generally oppose even having values.
 
Crake said:
Edit: It has some valid points, I wouldn't personally agree with it, or any slippery slope argument.

Dany believes in the slippery slope because of Tiamat. Overcoming that issue by going "yeah don't worry you're not like Tiamat at all" doesn't help. She doesn't believe it. Convincing her of it? That takes consistent acts which are diametrically opposed to anything Tiamat would do, some of which we argued against.
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Quoting for emphasis, Snowfire thinks none of this has been thought of before--it has. We haven't addressed it directly because it has always, always lead to alignment crisis of faith type situations, which multiple people are leery of peering into for good reason.
 
Crake said:
Quoting for emphasis, Snowfire thinks none of this has been thought of before--it has. We haven't addressed it directly because it has always, always lead to alignment crisis of faith type situations, which multiple people are leery of peering into for good reason.
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I've never seen it addressed directly, but part of that's definitely going to be how I don't always keep an eye on the thread.
 
Snowfire said:
I'm...really finding that hard to reconcile with her character as shown over the last several months of ingame time. I get that Daenerys is virulently anti-slavery but - ok, look. These are creatures that outright deserve to be destroyed. They are a cancer on creation, and we know that their very existence is bound to planar realms that exult in despoiling and corrupting everything around them. This isn't hyperbole, and there's no arguing the point. We work with certain entities of those realms because we've found ways to rip them away from that nature, the conceptual lock that forces them down a path that will destroy anything they touch (see: Azema). Destroying or weakening agents of those powers, regardless of how we acquire them, should in no way be a moral issue. Dany has seen what Devils and Demons and Daemons are wiling to do, how they're willing to wait, and for beings for whom a millennia is an eyeblink, this should be relevant to her thinking.

Actually, this raises a question.

Where is Dany's anti-slavery sentiment rooted? What event or events caused it to take so fiercely in her soul, despite the hypocrisy before her very eyes of our planning to call creatures purely to see them killed - the Naga Guardians - and if it's needed to do so as well for the creation of Valyrian Steel? How is that different, in any way? I'm not trying to be obtuse here, but I genuinely want to know, because there's a degree to which this is feeling...more than just the character we've (maybe I've) seen in this quest. I know that Dany in the books is utterly against slavery, but that's a result of experiences of her own, I believe. This Dany hasn't gone through those; the only example I can lay my finger on for this one is Tiamat, and she went into that as willingly as anyone who's signed a contract with the Pit.
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Her issue is equating souls with something as base as coin, it resonates with a sense of personal debasement and terror she felt under Tiamat's shadow. Even fiends are capable of those emotions and she is repulsed at the idea of inflicting it upon another sentient being.

Anyway I think this conversations is best handled IC.

For now vote clsoed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Nov 9, 2018 at 3:55 PM, finished with 244841 posts and 17 votes.
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Snowfire said:
I've never seen it addressed directly, but part of that's definitely going to be how I don't always keep an eye on the thread.
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DragonParadox had this to say basically: "If you tell her to stop doing X and believe it resolved, think again. She will redirect her Targaryen mania toward something else."

We can compound, account and address any issue that comes up as a result of her Targaryen Madness, but not erase it, it is basically hardwired down to the soul.

Viserys could take time share vacations on a Beach Party Demiplane but he would probably still be sneaking tax documents and political reform manifestos in there with him.
 
Where did the anti slavery sentiment come from?

Looks at braavos*

Gosh I just don't know how that could have happened.

Looks at our concentrated efforts to wipe out slavery on planetos*

Nope. Not seeing it, nu uh. Don't get it at all.

Remembers she sold her soul to tiamat to save her brother's life*

Naw, y'all must just be imagining that.
 
Crake said:
DragonParadox had this to say basically: "If you tell her to stop doing X and believe it resolved, think again. She will redirect her Targaryen mania toward something else."

We can compound, account and address any issue that comes up as a result of her Targaryen Madness, but not erase it, it is basically hardwired down to the soul.

Viserys could take time share vacations on a Beach Party Demiplane but he would probably still be sneaking tax documents and political reform manifestos in there with him.
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Can you weigh in on this DP? I want to know if you actually said all this or not.

Edit: whoops. @DragonParadox
 
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Crake said:
DragonParadox had this to say basically: "If you tell her to stop doing X and believe it resolved, think again. She will redirect her Targaryen mania toward something else."

We can compound, account and address any issue that comes up as a result of her Targaryen Madness, but not erase it, it is basically hardwired down to the soul.

Viserys could take time share vacations on a Beach Party Demiplane but he would probably still be sneaking tax documents and political reform manifestos in there with him.
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I...don't think it can be resolved. I think it can be tempered, be worked with and balanced. But I'd never think you could just 'fix' it. Brains don't work that way - I think I've given enough evidence of understanding that.

DragonParadox said:
Her issue is equating souls with something as base as coin, it resonates with a sense of personal debasement and terror she felt under Tiamat's shadow. Even fiends are capable of those emotions and she is repulsed at the idea of inflicting it upon another sentient being.

Anyway I think this conversations is best handled IC.
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Fair enough, I'll hold off then.

zxzx24 said:
Where did the anti slavery sentiment come from?

Looks at braavos*

Gosh I just don't know how that could have happened.

Looks at our concentrated efforts to wipe out slavery on planetos*

Nope. Not seeing it, nu uh. Don't get it at all.

Remembers she sold her soul to tiamat to save her brother's life*

Naw, y'all must just be imagining that.
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Oh please. If you want to be helpful, lose the self-righteous passive aggressiveness.
 
[X] Banner poles for the Legion, let all the world know that they are honored no less than great warriors of yore

I think the vote is still open.
 
I am genuinely baffled by this discussion.

What sparked this exactly?



Raspberry*
Wraps self righteousness around themselves tighter*

Buzz off its mine!
 
Snowfire said:
I...don't think it can be resolved. I think it can be tempered, be worked with and balanced. But I'd never think you could just 'fix' it. Brains don't work that way - I think I've given enough evidence of understanding that.



Fair enough, I'll hold off then.



Oh please. If you want to be helpful, lose the self-righteous passive aggressiveness.
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Personally when quoting DP directly, the whole "does not want to equate souls with something so base as coin", I agree with her, and I don't see much point in trying to convince her she's implicitly wrong.

Trying to rationalize it a few dozen ways might work but it's not something I feel convinced of, it just sounds to me like trying to get someone we love to do a bunch of mental gymnastics to bullrush through some lingering trauma, all to do some admittedly fucking terrifying industrial scale Aztec style heart excavation on sentients.

That's part of the reason why I was supportive of something like a bioreactor which generated Primordial Law, Chaos, Good or Evil. It's either that or a full scale war with the purpose of fueling our industries.
 
Could we give the legion banners some protection or moral buff effects or blessings, maybe a custom one for each legion that fits with their individual flavor? I think that would be a cool part of the lore each of these legions could build for themselves. Also good for unit moral.
 
Crake said:
Personally when quoting DP directly, the whole "does not want to equate souls with something so base as coin", I agree with her, and I don't see much point in trying to convince her she's implicitly wrong.

Trying to rationalize it a few dozen ways might work but it's not something I feel convinced of, it just sounds to me like trying to get someone we love to do a bunch of mental gymnastics to bullrush through some lingering trauma, all to do some admittedly fucking terrifying industrial scale Aztec style heart excavation on sentients.

That's part of the reason why I was supportive of something like a bioreactor which generated Primordial Law, Chaos, Good or Evil. It's either that or a full scale war with the purpose of fueling our industries.
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You're missing my motives. I'm somewhat ceasing to care about the VS stuff. Stability impulses are kicking forward.
 
Crake said:
Personally when quoting DP directly, the whole "does not want to equate souls with something so base as coin", I agree with her, and I don't see much point in trying to convince her she's implicitly wrong.

Trying to rationalize it a few dozen ways might work but it's not something I feel convinced of, it just sounds to me like trying to get someone we love to do a bunch of mental gymnastics to bullrush through some lingering trauma, all to do some admittedly fucking terrifying industrial scale Aztec style heart excavation on sentients.

That's part of the reason why I was supportive of something like a bioreactor which generated Primordial Law, Chaos, Good or Evil. It's either that or a full scale war with the purpose of fueling our industries.
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I...

I feel like I am actually taking crazy pills. Are you guys having part of this discussion through telepathy?

Like. I agree with your conclusion here, but I thought you were arguing against that a minute ago?

Is this the future? Did I time travel? WHAT ELSE HAVE I MISSED!?!?!?!?!
 
She seems to be managing... Viserys is socially adept, and I mean to the point of being able to fake mental wellness identification. The last time he noticed something beyond the pale in Daenerys' Magical Land of Pixie Dust was in Lys, when she made contact with the Landwarden. Unprompted.
 
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Mmmm. We're you there while Viserys had the depression flaw snowfire?

Viserys was able to hide it from everyone but Dany. (Or he thought he did)

Mmmm. I thought mental welness didn't really get... "fixed".

I always thought you just got progressively better at coping until you were able to live a happy functional life.
 
Snowfire said:
No. That's a cop out, and it's a bad one. Anything like this has a root cause, like Viserys does - he saw the failings of his father and then the Usurper. Dany has to have one. I want to know where it is. Once I know that, I can learn how to work around it if/when we need to. Viserys has, in some ways, learnt to balance his own Targ madness. Dany has not. This is not healthy.
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How many Valyrian dragons are in her ancestry?
 
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