A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Are we going to be able to make time for that trip to the Vale? Even a couple of days would be something...
- Location
- Philippines
Partly because the Tritons want their section away from the rush of the city, and because of the altar. The altar is located deep in the caves below Dragon's Roost keep (The same cave we fought Damphair and where Tiamat's Altar used to be). The Temple, while having its own altar, is actually the entrance to the long passageway that leads deep into the chamber where the Godsblood Altar is. In my opinion, its better away from the city since the Merling King is a god of death, so the Temple also does funerals.
Also yes, I meant South.
The way Torturer's Deep was set was that the Keep was a away from the port proper. We expanded that port to make it a city. The Keep is on a cliffside for better security since the port's the best beach the island has.
The Breakwater will hold a Lighthouse in the future. I want a Nereid Statue there ala Liberty/Shrine to the Merling King's Daughters, but people wants a series of statues instead.
[X] Goldfish
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- Location
- Germany
On a dedicated fortress with a defensible position and good firing arcs.
The infrastructural issues created by city walls are tremendous, while they provide little to no defense against high-magic warfare. See how much the walls helped Tyrosh. You need a level of paranoid security to make a fortress worthwhile that you can't reach with a stretched out city wall.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
@Azel Can we revisit this when we've actually started work on the Doom Fortress? I won't deny that being able to just smoothly expand the city in neat districts without walls getting in the way has a certain appeal, but no need to tear down perfectly good fortifications (just yet).
No one else has actually caught up to our advent of mobile warfare tactics yet.
No one else has actually caught up to our advent of mobile warfare tactics yet.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
@Azel On that note, if we're asserting that walls can't keep a determined enemy from getting into a city, what can we do to keep the populace safe from harm in the event of a surprise attack, since that seems like the most likely form of mass warfare the city is likely to experience? Warded bunker shelters?
- Location
- Germany
Haven't they? Both Lanna Lannister and the Illithid have used attack plans that bypassed our walls entirely. These methods are trivially easy for a mid-level mage. Heck, the Hesperian did the same and it wasn't walls that stopped him from carrying out his plan either.
Which I might add were never finished. We only laid foundations, but kept forgetting to build the actual walls.
And this isn't about Doomfortress. I'm saying we have to revisit the basic idea of fortifications.
- Location
- Mexico
But how are we going to keep the immigrants out?
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Note that I said "massed attack".
Mages can contest mages. If no mages are around, mages cannot be contested.
Mundanes are stopped cold by fortifications though.
- Location
- Australia
@Goldfish
I have to agree that Sleep should be kept, she still regularly faces <4HD humans and taking them down quietly is important. She may have a whole crew but it's a lot less subtle than the shapeshifting few who knocks them out in their own cabin/harbour office etc.
@Destrark
The Merlin King temple has a larger sea facing section that can be approached by boat (yes, less than convenient compared to walking) and ship (quite convenient for the ship about to depart on a long journey, the whole crew, captain and ship can pray/receive their blessings at the start of the journey)
@Azel
Other people still use soldiers, the walls aren't an elimination of a threat, they're a mitigation and still serve that purpose even if only to require people make their way through checkpoints or get questioned about why they're movements are so odd etc.
E.g. Illithid can easily bypass walls, that's not to say they won't used massed sahuagin as a disposable raiding force.
I have to agree that Sleep should be kept, she still regularly faces <4HD humans and taking them down quietly is important. She may have a whole crew but it's a lot less subtle than the shapeshifting few who knocks them out in their own cabin/harbour office etc.
@Destrark
The Merlin King temple has a larger sea facing section that can be approached by boat (yes, less than convenient compared to walking) and ship (quite convenient for the ship about to depart on a long journey, the whole crew, captain and ship can pray/receive their blessings at the start of the journey)
@Azel
Other people still use soldiers, the walls aren't an elimination of a threat, they're a mitigation and still serve that purpose even if only to require people make their way through checkpoints or get questioned about why they're movements are so odd etc.
E.g. Illithid can easily bypass walls, that's not to say they won't used massed sahuagin as a disposable raiding force.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Also, if you're attesting there's a basic conceit that the civilian population cannot be protected from attack, you're already not thinking laterally enough.
I'll advocate a goddamn island-wide force field if that's what it takes.
- Location
- Germany
In a word: Nothing.
In more words: Prevent the attack from targeting a population center and close down attack vectors pre-emptively.
Use the Inquisition to stop local agents from preparing massed Teleport incursions. Use Divination to aid this. Cleanly seperate military and civilian infrastructure to divert attention to things we can secure. Use highly mobile response forces to ensure that the enemy must attack strongpoints instead of taking cities.
The solution is a doctrine change.
Doesn't work either. See our "incursion" into Amun Kelisk as an example. They have warded the entire city, but if we had taken the portal mirror along and signalled a waiting attack forve on the other side to start marching agter we were in?
I know that is hard to swallow. People have great trouble living with these facts in real-life. But ultimately? There is no true security when a single person can become a major threat on his lonesome.
- Location
- United States
I really want those walls in place for when the Deep Ones inevitably attack. I want the civilians to have something to hide behind against the waves of Sahuagin and Skum while we're off on the other end of the planet blowing up Deep Ones fortresses.
It's just an added layer of insurance.
And more than that, keep in mind that two of the three High Magic citadels we've been to have the best walls we've ever seen because walls are perfect focuses for massive defensive magics. I think this talk of "We don't need any walls, we shouldn't rely on them anymore" doesn't account for what we could be doing with them. I want those city-wide wards.
It's just an added layer of insurance.
And more than that, keep in mind that two of the three High Magic citadels we've been to have the best walls we've ever seen because walls are perfect focuses for massive defensive magics. I think this talk of "We don't need any walls, we shouldn't rely on them anymore" doesn't account for what we could be doing with them. I want those city-wide wards.
- Location
- Germany
And with superior Divination and aerial reconnaissance, we can contest any such force in the field long before it reaches a city. Mobile assets can protect an atea for a fraction of the cost and logistical weight.
The French tried static defenses all the eay to WW2 and look how much good it did them while other nations had much better success by countering an invasion with their own mobile assets.
The idea that an army can march upon a city without being contested is laughable under the changed circumstances.
- Location
- Germany
Again. Amun Kelisk has such wards and it didn't help.
You are trying to throw tremendous amounts of ressources on a completely false sense of security.
What are walls going to matter when the Illithid pull out another Kaiju sized mind-control blimp? Something we know they can do, because we already fought one of those things.
What are the wards going to matter when they pull their last trick with that thing again and direct a tidal wave at SD? Nothing. It's not a magical attack, just plain water.
The solution is to kill the attacking force long before anything of this becomes an issue, not to waste ressources on a defence that is at best pointless as it's never used and at worst entirely ineffectual when assaulted.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
You would know, wouldn't you?
- Location
- Australia
Mitigation.
Walls should be costing us about the equivalent of moving dirt, layered defences are superior to single controls.
I'm definitely not an expert on WW2 but the Maginot line did work didn't it? Germany didn't want to go through it and violated a treaty to avoid the attempt, which certainly didn't do them any favours. They also parked an army opposite it to sell the ruse which tied up their forces instead of being useful elsewhere.
Did it save France? No. Did it make it more difficult and costly to fuck with France? Yes. Success.
- Location
- Australia
If our resources spent on defence < their resources spent overcoming them. That is success all other things being equal.
You seem to be taking a very "all your eggs in one basket" + "enemy has unlimited funds" perspective here.
- Location
- Germany
It also cost a tremendous amount of ressources and manpower on the French side. So much in fact that the hinterland was wide open and couldn't contest the German forces to any meaningful degree.
We can construct, arm and staff a small fortress at a fraction of the cost of fortifying a whole city and it will be more secure too, since it doesn't have 30+ thousand potential hostiles right in the middle of it.
- Location
- florida
@Azel O.k. What do we do about people who target civilian centers.
Like fiends, mind flayers, undead, ect. They do not care about "winning" they want bodies for their war machines, or to just make as many people as possible suffer.
Personally, I think we need guns. People need to be able to do something against the truly horrendous monsters.
Like fiends, mind flayers, undead, ect. They do not care about "winning" they want bodies for their war machines, or to just make as many people as possible suffer.
Personally, I think we need guns. People need to be able to do something against the truly horrendous monsters.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
I'm going to go ahead and say that I would prefer both passive forms of defense to go along with the active ones.
Using Tyrosh as an example was a start for your argument, but it failed to note that none of the parties were in a state of control of the city in actuality when it happened. They just... inhabited it.
High level magics, means to allow rapid transportation, had to, and did exist during the time when the First Men were building their mega-warded fortifications.
There had to be a reason for that.
Edit: Also, the Wall is probably the ultimate example of an out-and-out "did not go by half-measures" static defense, so strong, that it actively blocks all form of translocation not used by essential demi-gods.
Using Tyrosh as an example was a start for your argument, but it failed to note that none of the parties were in a state of control of the city in actuality when it happened. They just... inhabited it.
High level magics, means to allow rapid transportation, had to, and did exist during the time when the First Men were building their mega-warded fortifications.
There had to be a reason for that.
Edit: Also, the Wall is probably the ultimate example of an out-and-out "did not go by half-measures" static defense, so strong, that it actively blocks all form of translocation not used by essential demi-gods.
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- Location
- United States
One thing I'm confused on -- what "tremendous resources"? The building material is basically free. The pech use their Wall of Stone SLA daily, and have been doing so for months now. And the actual building really should not cost much between Violins of Building and hiring laborers. I'm really confused about what you think this will cost when we can pretty much get the whole thing done in a week with minimal spending.
My stance is only strengthened if one considers the possibility of diverting a set of Titan's Tools for, what, a day or two? And no, I'm not advocating for it, I'm using it as a highlight to how easy this is for us.
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