1. Yes, obviously. Of course I trust us more than others, if I didn't then I wouldn't take or vote for those actions.
Even when you trust someone else you first have to trust your own judgement in trusting them.
2. Not necessarily stupid evil, this is what I meant by your quote of me not covering everything.
As I said before there are things a level 6 Banker cannot think about, as in totally incapable on a Nat 20, let alone grasp the concept enough to make intelligent decisions.
Best case scenario it's a group of mundanes with ever increasing importance to the stability of the realm that require us to protect them to the extent a PC would be protected at a minimum when they have no PC capability to protect themselves.

This is a problem people had with Rhaella you will recall so it's not a new concept, but it is new that it's people we don't personally care about in the slightest, their only importance to us is the threat they pose by existing and potentially failing through their own fault or not.
  1. True, but there is a difference between trusting oneself first and not trusting others at all. For instance do you trust the legion not to rebel on mass? They could do a hell of a lot of damage if it came to it.
  2. Fair enough
  3. Will they remain level 6 Bankers over the generation? Considering that they will be powerful and rich individuals in a high magic empire? I think the ultimate issue here is counting others as passive (outside of exploding under strain).
 
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@Deliste, the same holds true for any other subordinate of ours.

Giving Gerold command of our so far only Legion has given him quite tremendous leverage to screw us over.

Which is why I want some leverage in turn to steer the Iron Bank. This deal can work fine on mutual dependency, but it goes down in flames if our only recourse to settle disputes is the threat of force. You can destroy economies with armies, but not steer them.

No it is not, as you said Gerold controls only the current totality of the Legion, the Legion will never have the scope and power we are discussing and we actually care about him, the Iron Central Bank will grow with the Empire and be second only to the Empire itself in scope and power. This is inevitable.

Also I did vote with you, just because I push back against statements that erroneously contain "they will just" and "they can only" doesn't mean I don't want it to work. I just want it to work.
 
  1. True, but there is a difference between trusting oneself first and not trusting others at all. For instance do you trust the legion not to rebel on mass? They could do a hell of a lot of damage if it came to it.
  2. Fair enough
  3. Will they remain level 6 Bankers over the generation? Considering that they will be powerful and rich individuals in a high magic empire? I think the ultimate issue here is counting others as passive (outside of exploding under strain).
1. Not nearly as much as we are discussing, and yes I do.
3. It's your world to build, I certainly am not expecting them to remain static but you're the one who has put so much emphasis on danger as a requirement to advance.
How far are they gonna get when they grow up pampered? That's for you to decide but High Magic is only going to make them softer as a rule unless the thing I fear occurs enough along a spectrum that they adapt to it in time.

Fingers crossed for Imps I guess.
 
If arresting them all would be possible without crashing the Empire then this is a very shitty control from their perspective, I very much doubt that what they have in mind doesn't involve intertwining themselves to prevent exactly that for the fear we would engineer a reason.
You are arguing in circles.

State 1: The Iron Bank is powerful. Destroying it by arresting the leadership would do untold damage to our economy. Said leadership has strong incentives to keep the economy healthy, since it's the source of their power.

State 2: The Iron Bank is waning and its leadership could win greatly by intentionally sabotaging the economy to their own benefit. Due to their lack of power and the fact that Viserys has to face economic problems either way, a complete purge is a tempting option.


Corollary: If they do a shitty job, they are eroding their leverage. To strengthen their position, they need to do a good job.
 
I think that... the biggest issue is "how does the seating arrangement actually look in practice, not principle?"

Basically, the question we are asking is, "who is actually in charge?"

For instance, if the Iron Bank can sabotage the entirety of the empire, but only by shooting themselves in the foot, and they are invested in not allowing such a state of affairs to come to pass if they can help it, checks and balances will naturally form, or be deliberately agreed upon as the deal is struck and the details come up for discussion.

But if it is impossible for them to singular target the state apparatus, I.E, cut us dry while the rest of the economy continues to function and the constituent regions rebel and drift away because the State is no longer capable of funding its military, paying the upkeep on its infrastructure, nor operating key pieces of state owned industry upon which everyone is somewhat reliant upon because Viserys also deliberately has a monopoly on certain things.

The question isn't, "can I make everyone around me which incidentally includes you" bleed, it is "can I make you bleed deliberately and get away with it more or less intact," which Viserys would never allow. It would be like us agreeing to become Braavos' attack dog in exchange for the scraps off their table, never acting out of turn for fear that they will neuter us financially while their careful network of alliances at least ensures they'll survive the tumult.

MAD is basically written into the contract to ensure both will never want to harm the other. But it is still implicit that the Bank would be subordinate to the state, not the other way around.

Now, that may not be the case in our reality, but Viserys is a dragon, so fat cat bankers' arguments are thus invalid.
 
No it is not, as you said Gerold controls only the current totality of the Legion, the Legion will never have the scope and power we are discussing and we actually care about him, the Iron Central Bank will grow with the Empire and be second only to the Empire itself in scope and power. This is inevitable.

Also I did vote with you, just because I push back against statements that erroneously contain "they will just" and "they can only" doesn't mean I don't want it to work. I just want it to work.
And neither will the Iron Bank ever encompass the totality of our economy, let alone the planar-economy. They will be powerful, yes, but that too has limits. We won't be able to push them too far, lest they use that power against us, but neither can they expect to attack us without being labelled a liability.

And everyone on Planetos knows what happens to things Viserys Targaryen considers a liability.


What I see here is the chance for a mutually beneficial relationship and all we need for that to happen is to find a few ground rules for it, so that we can arbitrate disputes without immediately threatening each other with radical actions.
 
You are arguing in circles.

I'm discussing several points against several points of view.

Your post covers motivation only.

That's precisely what I mean. Visibility begets attention and pressures that come with it. The Braavosi are already adapting, just look at the Sealord.

Gold isn't enough and all he's done so far is change the way he spends it, I appreciate the intelligence in doing so but at the end of the day there are Will Saves and Knowledge Checks to make among other things.

We can't protect ourselves fully against the threats they may face and we're a Godsdamned Dragon Sorcerer capable of casting likely the highest circle of spells on this plane of existence.

Right now we're a 15th level party give or take facing 15th level threats, and they're level 6.

Escalating threats, lagging protections unless they catch up to us and now all those "but they will never because Viserys be a Dragon" arguments come undone, apparently they're Dragons too.

Anyway I have dinner and a while ago I did say that consideration of these issues is all I wanted and I'm sure that's been achieved as well as it could.
 
I'm discussing several points against several points of view.

Your post covers motivation only.



Gold isn't enough and all he's done so far is change the way he spends it, I appreciate the intelligence in doing so but at the end of the day there are Will Saves and Knowledge Checks to make among other things.

We can't protect ourselves fully against the threats they may face and we're a Godsdamned Dragon Sorcerer capable of casting likely the highest circle of spells on this plane of existence.

Right now we're a 15th level party give or take facing 15th level threats, and they're level 6.

Escalating threats, lagging protections unless they catch up to us and now all those "but they will never because Viserys be a Dragon" arguments come undone, apparently they're Dragons too.

Anyway I have dinner and a while ago I did say that consideration of these issues is all I wanted and I'm sure that's been achieved as well as it could.

Except they do not have to protect themselves against everything alone. In this situation the Iron bank and its keyholders would be important assets of the state, the very things the inquisition and the Scholarum were designed to help protect.

Anyway vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jul 3, 2018 at 5:58 AM, finished with 242 posts and 20 votes.

  • [X] Plan More Politics
    -[X] "That is quite a weighty matter and the implications far reaching. To give that much power in my realm to an entity wholly beyond the states control would be folly."
    -[X] "First and foremost, monopolies are poison for each market, so any such agreement would require that the Iron Bank does not try to leverage it to destroy any competitors. To have such central services controlled by only one entity across a large realm could have dire consequences for its economy. Competition is what drives us to greater heights after all and complacency invites rot."
    -[X] "Such a partnership would require that I can influence the Iron Banks workings and I need to retain some leeway in certain areas. Loans and financial services from the state to the state are not covered by this agreement. Likewise, my businesses need to retain the ability to loan and invest money for their own operations."
    -[X] "Furthermore, there are some rather weighty plans that I have in mind. Reforms that could make or break entire economies, but might be necessary far too soon in this changing world, no matter how much I wished to let these plans sit until a time of peace of stability."
    -[X] Pause a moment and show clearly on your face that the next statement is neither made lightly, nor born of greed.
    -[X] "In principle, I am quite content with my association with the Iron Bank so far, but I'm ill at ease at the thought of binding myself so tightly to it that it restricts my movements. I would be willing to offer it my patronage to the extent you wish, but I can only do so in exchange for influence and control to match."
    -[X] "Mind you that the spirit of such an agreement would be sacrosanct. I'm talking about leverage to influence business for the benefit of the state and all its citizens, not to rip the building out of Braavos and bring it vaults and all to the Deep. It would be the height of disrespect to meddle with an institution of it's pedigree for frivolous and petty reasons."
 
Just to be clear: it's impossible for them to get away with destroying the economy without hurting themselves. Even if they did it, our promise to the mind flayers holds true and they will surely Divine it. Anyone that causes that kind of worldwide crisis should expect DRAGONFIRE.
 
Except they do not have to protect themselves against everything alone. In this situation the Iron bank and its keyholders would be important assets of the state, the very things the inquisition and the Scholarum were designed to help protect.

Anyway vote closed.

The Inquisition was something I expected them to push back against making them a blind spot, they are displaying an "us and them" attitude while the Inquisition is very much Viserys, you seem to take it a foregone conclusion we can inspect them as any other so that makes things a lot easier.
 
And yet Viserys deciding the fates of untold billions is fine... What you seem to be arguing is that any check on Viserys' power is ultimately unacceptable because all other people can fall to Stupid Evil. Also I question the notion that 'nothing left to loose' will ever exist considering just how much Viserys can make people loose if he puts his mind to it.
No, no check on Viserys' power is fine because he's our MC.
 
I feel it's really weird to argue about class levels when discussing inter-dimensiol macro-economics.

:confused:

And how exactly do you plan on getting inter-dimensional without class levels?
Even if you do, how do you plan on getting past the gate as a mundane, likely not speaking the language or being able to withstand the presence of your supplier?
 
And how exactly do you plan on getting inter-dimensional without class levels?
Even if you do, how do you plan on getting past the gate as a mundane, likely not speaking the language or being able to withstand the presence of your supplier?
By accepting that class levels are a decent way to model killing orcs in 20x20ft rooms with a treasure chest in the back wall, but suck at modeling macro-economics?
 
By accepting that class levels are a decent way to model killing orcs in 20x20ft rooms with a treasure chest in the back wall, but suck at modeling macro-economics?
If the guy with 5HD rolls Sense Motive against someone specialised in Bluff with 15HD he is very unlikely to win, assuming both are buffed, the former from items the latter from items and/or his own magic.

That goes for every social interaction.

It's a fact we have to keep in mind when giving political power to beings without personal power.
 
If this world was actually one Diplomacy check away from rolling over and doing whatever it has been told to do, why are we not yet in charge of absolutely everything?

Obviously we shouldn't let every little clerk haggle with a Phistophilus, but that's what skilled negotiators are hired for.
 
If the guy with 5HD rolls Sense Motive against someone specialised in Bluff with 15HD he is very unlikely to win, assuming both are buffed, the former from items the latter from items and/or his own magic.

That goes for every social interaction.

It's a fact we have to keep in mind when giving political power to beings without personal power.

The only way to effectively combat that possibility is to remove the ability for low- to mid-tier employees to approve any sort of major decision involving large transfers of money, property, or business assets. Upper-tier employees will by necessity be of higher level and/or protected by more powerful magic, enchanted items, or advisors/guardians who are.

It's all well and good to Bluff, Diplomance, or just outright Charm/Dominate someone into signing off on your latest scheme, but when they have to pass the approval up the chain, and then it has to go through a few more intermediaries, you all but remove any possibility of exploitation.

That's not really any different than modern day business and banking practices.
 
Just with added mind control!

Ahahaha... I couldn't not laugh at that too.

I mean, really... added? What's taken away?
 
The only way to effectively combat that possibility is to remove the ability for low- to mid-tier employees to approve any sort of major decision involving large transfers of money, property, or business assets. Upper-tier employees will by necessity be of higher level and/or protected by more powerful magic, enchanted items, or advisors/guardians who are.

It's all well and good to Bluff, Diplomance, or just outright Charm/Dominate someone into signing off on your latest scheme, but when they have to pass the approval up the chain, and then it has to go through a few more intermediaries, you all but remove any possibility of exploitation.

That's not really any different than modern day business and banking practices.
This. You don't send the intern to negotiate over millions of IM. If you do, you deserve everything you get.
 
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