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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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[x] Azel

// I think, among other thinks, Pentos is a test. The sealord wants to know if, after the 3 cities, Braavos is next on our list. Insofar is the 'let's make plans for later' a good approach. Not that he'll blindly trust us, but he won't put his contingency plans into effect immediately.
 
Why exactly are we giving a report on our actions and foes to someone who isn't reciprocating or paying us?

I want to ask him about what he's been doing, what otherworldly plots he's uncovered...
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Why exactly are we giving a report on our actions and foes to someone who isn't reciprocating or paying us?

I want to ask him about what he's been doing, what otherworldly plots he's uncovered...
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Goldfish said:
Agreed. Let's not leave until he get him to reciprocate?
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It's less what you're saying and more briefing and equal on the major events of the world.

Also, this doesn't go unreciprocated. We freely give him information and it becomes much easier to ask him for things. For example, in the past when we unloaded information onto the Sealord, we subsequently asked for permission to recruit the engineers for the Queen Rhaella and it was an automatic diplomacy success since we'd already given so much information.

We're not leaving after the next update, we'll see our returns soon.
 
There's so many issues to sort through. And remember this: we've essentially made ourselves indispensable to Braavos maintaining its current course. It would not be viable for Braavos to hold onto Pentos and manage its own internal issues simultaneously without allies to lean upon. He's relieved because on an international level, he knows Braavos is not favored by the West, and he's surrounded by slavers. We're the only power currently interested in ending slavery, who has values and interests roughly similar to that of Braavos, with the power to dissuade military courses from the many people who would not like to see its continued rise.

We're not leaving this meeting without having some of our interests satisfied. He's essentially obligated to ensure that, if not happy, we leave at least satisfied, or his own position becomes much more tenuous. The relief stems from the fact that his plans actually have a shot of working out. Stability comes from keeping the attention of your internal rivals focused on external matters while simultaneously taking caring of internal ones (like said rivals).

Not everyone is apparently happy with the way the Sealord has essentially gotten (or been seen as) into bed with us. Braavos makes a lot of money off trade with the West, and his relationship with us puts that at risk in the short term.

His bet is a good one, mind you, but short term, it effects the fortunes of some of the maritime trade Houses.

TL;DR There are a lot of mitigating factors that ensures that we have some leverage to use to pry some reciprocated information or favors from him without risking much.
 
Crake said:
There's so many issues to sort through. And remember this: we've essentially made ourselves indispensable to Braavos maintaining its current course. It would not be viable for Braavos to hold onto Pentos and manage its own internal issues simultaneously without allies to lean upon. He's relieved because on an international level, he knows Braavos is not favored by the West, and he's surrounded by slavers. We're the only power currently interested in ending slavery, who has values and interests roughly similar to that of Braavos, with the power to dissuade military courses from the many people who would not like to see its continued rise.

We're not leaving this meeting without having some of our interests satisfied. He's essentially obligated to ensure that, if not happy, we leave at least satisfied, or his own position becomes much more tenuous. The relief stems from the fact that his plans actually have a shot of working out. Stability comes from keeping the attention of your internal rivals focused on external matters while simultaneously taking caring of internal ones (like said rivals).

Not everyone is apparently happy with the way the Sealord has essentially gotten (or been seen as) into bed with us. Braavos makes a lot of money off trade with the West, and his relationship with us puts that at risk in the short term.

His bet is a good one, mind you, but short term, it effects the fortunes of some of the maritime trade Houses.

TL;DR There are a lot of mitigating factors that ensures that we have some leverage to use to pry some reciprocated information or favors from him without risking much.
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Pretty much this. The Sealord has associated too much with us, even if it always benefited him, to leave our corner now. As long as we are not trying to do something too drastic, the best path for him is the kne we are plowing for him.
 
All of you are right, but then we need to remember to actually pry some factors from him.

What will we be asking for?
 
It'll depend on his current goals, since we may need additional leverage to get him onside with us if he's determined to carry something potentially troublesome out.

But in the general vein, information exchange about local powers should be essentially free. We're on the verge of discussing a formalized military alliance. That goes without saying we'll be sharing intel.

But we might also discuss magical economics together. Getting a headstart on the rest of the world when it comes to infrastructure and industry powered by magic will take a lot of cooperation.

And, yes, administrators. Which Braavos has plenty of. Competent ones. Ones who can usually be counted on.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jul 1, 2018 at 10:41 AM, finished with 201960 posts and 14 votes.
  • [X] Plan Testing the Waters
    -[X] "A laudable goal, maybe even a necessary one, though that raises the question of how far you want to pursue it."
    -[X] "Do you just wish to end 'bondsmanship' in Pentos or take the city wholesale?"
    -[X] "I have been there a few times in the past months and what I found is worrisome for different reasons. One of the magisters, Illyrio Morpatis, had begun to amass magical lore for unknown purposes and allied himself to the servants of a dark goddess in the process. Furthermore, I slew a mage that had worked for other magisters, creating monstrosities out of the innocent and imprisoning fell beasts to draw upon their powers. A limited war will likely cause the magisters to deploy whatever nightmares they managed to amass by such deeds or drive them to ever further into depravity to take revenge."
    -[X] "We reap the terrible harvest of our past in these days. Every pit that had been allowed to fester in peace is turning into a threat far beyond what we could have ever imagined in the years past."
    -[X] "Would Braavos have the troops, money and conviction to see the deed done? My aid can only go so far and my Legion still marches on their stomachs and the coins that keep them filled."
    -[X] "Please do not take this as an attempt of extortion, but these things need to be considered. The calculus is easier when I know that the treasuries and granaries of the place I take will be mine to command afterwards. To expend strength in this fashion might cost us too much to face the other threats looming ever closer."
    -[X] "But perhaps these are the wrong questions to ask, when we clearly need to speak about other things to fully appreciate the impact of the matter. Your words show that you have little illusions of the fate of the remaining two daughters in the months to come, but that raises the questions where my realm and Braavos stand with each other afterwards."
    -[X] "What are your goals for the future?"
    [X] No problem with it, just make clear that leaving any foe in this new world time and no good options can lead to them choosing darker ways, so quick and decisive action is necessary, if action is taken at all
    -[X] Otherwise agree with the idea.
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TalonofAnathrax said:
All of you are right, but then we need to remember to actually pry some factors from him.

What will we be asking for?
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I will try to get some good concessions, depending on what is in the cards.

My ultimate goal would be turning Braavos into a client-state, if not outright absorbing it. It's not like our laws or goals would be in any way detrimental to them.
 
In controlling both Westeros and Western Essos, they would already essentially be a client state.

I think assessing, on his end, just how far we intend to go in Essos is conditional to his future goals. If we say "just stopping at the Three Daughters to fund and build an army to retake my birthright", then we become an important local actor who is actually relevant to keep abreast of and maintain a military and economic alliance with.

If we intend to conquering most of our neighbors, then that basically changes the tone of the conversation by many degrees. And, facing facts, this is what Braavos is facing:

He can't get our tacit and full support (both as a deterrent to enemies and also in practical terms) against Pentos and any aggressors if he does not, in all likelihood, cede some literal and figurative ground. Then, just on that issue, it becomes a more long term concern, because we would share land borders with them.

But that's not where we let it end, no, then we absorb Volantis, Norvos, the Rhoyne included, Qohor. Start a reclamation project for Essaria, fund expeditions for former Sarnori expats or remnant city states to reclaim their heartland (so we can assimilate them), assert our authority over North Valyria, absorb former and New Ghiscar.

There's good news: He does still have leverage. He has trade contacts with the Far East through his various subject Houses, and we favor Braavosi trained administrators. Seeing the way the wind is blowing, he could focus on his strengths to get favorable terms as a client state or protectorate, with essentially free reign within his remit.

Or he could push away someone who already loves his City too much to do it lasting harm, militarily or economically... which would be absurd--he knows what he's been doing thus far. He knows where he gets his bread buttered. He's having us arrange for his political rivals to be assassinated... you don't outsource that to another state unless you expect it to become a superpower in the near future.

Yes, I'm sort of leaning on real-life a bit with that assumption, and the fact this takes place on a death world with extraplanar powers and eldritch abominations trying to muscle into the action sort of muddies the waters, but it's still pretty accurate.
 
Crake said:
Yes, I'm sort of leaning on real-life a bit with that assumption, and the fact this takes place on a death world with extraplanar powers and eldritch abominations trying to muscle into the action sort of muddies the waters, but it's still pretty accurate.
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That actually works in our favor. A human unification narrative is much easier to sell when the literal horrors from beyond are at the gates.
 
Duesal said:
In the distant future when we have the means to fully control her, I want our own Uniila to do questionable experiments for us.
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I think the worst mistake Baator did when facing us was being competent enough to tempt us to recruit its denizens.

The Tanar'ri will get less attention from us due to being an incompetent rabble.
 
I wouldn't underestimate Baator's benefits package. The price for failure is pretty steep in comparison to us, but there's something to be said of "if you can kill your boss, you can keep his job".

Obviously we won't be encouraging our people to aim that high. :V
 
Crake said:
I wouldn't underestimate Baator's benefits package. The price for failure is pretty steep in comparison to us, but there's something to be said of "if you can kill your boss, you can keep his job".

Obviously we won't be encouraging our people to aim that high. :V
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Baator doesn't have "You keep what you kill" laws. To grow up you need to be competent enough for a superior to try to promote you, but not competent enough as to be a threat to your superiors.

So it eventually settles an standard for everything there.
 
Tomcost said:
Baator doesn't have "You keep what you kill" laws. To grow up you need to be competent enough for a superior to try to promote you, but not competent enough as to be a threat to your superiors.
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Which in effect means you have to sabotage or kill your direct superior in a way that makes you look like the best choice for his post to the next-up superior.
Since they are immortal and likely not stupid enough to start making serious mistakes by themselves.

That's somewhat harder than "keep what you kill" laws, but still on a very similar principle.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Which in effect means you have to sabotage or kill your direct superior in a way that makes you look like the best choice for his post to the next-up superior.
Since they are immortal and likely not stupid enough to start making serious mistakes by themselves.

That's somewhat harder than "keep what you kill" laws, but still on a very similar principle.
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The principle of being more competent than your superior. Still better than being killier than your superior.
 
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