thats not completely true even in real life nobles and kings who were deposed have fled and lived entire lives deposed or fleeing. Lots of people would choose life even if they may as well be a peasant. in fact its more common for people to choose life than a losing battle in real life.

Yes. As long as you provide them an out. I'm not talking about the heirs, I'm talking about the self-centered magisters. If, from their perspective, we are going to kill them, divest them of all their property, and basically ruin their entire legacy, extending the analogy we have cut off their retreat, and made it clear we will not take quarter. At that point, there is no reason not to fight to the last. But if instead we permit an out, that they might preserve their legacy, some of their wealth, and in some very rare edge cases they may save their life, then yes, they will break.

I also want to avoid angry young men, whose fathers just died, with no useful trade skills, and have nothing to lose. Because that's how you get a Sons of the Harpy equivalent (I mean, some will appear anyway, but not need to drive recruits, who still have useful connections from their previous social class, into their arms. We don't need to make the problem worse.)
 
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Not worth the PR hit. Also, what a man says under torture is not reliable, as they will say anything to make you stop.

We have freaking magical compulsions man. That's where we should be investing.
It's not a PR hit. Torturers are far from uncommon among lords and kings. This would be status quo. ASOIAF =/= modern society, a torturer is not something to gasp at.

As for magic -- sure, but you'd have to have Malarys handle everything then, and he doesn't have the time for that.
I also want to avoid angry young men, whose fathers just died, with no useful trade skills, and have nothing to lose. Because that's how you get a Sons of the Harpy equivalent (I mean, some will appear anyway, but not need to drive recruits, who still have useful connections from their previous social class, into their arms. We don't need to make the problem worse.)
Oh, the walking XP bags? Bring them on, the magelings and legionnaires can use the practice.
 
@Diomedon @Azel @Goldfish @TotallyNotEvil

For Valaena's disguise, in addition to a greater disguise item, we should have her among a throng of Dragonseeds Dany is training to become Clerics of Draconic Glory.

Not that we'd be training her to be a cleric, but her "I'm a gutterrat who became practically a princess overnight" would shoot up in authenticity if surrounded by other Targ by-blows.

Pointlessly complicated, and just one extra layer of deception that would need to be maintained.

Give the girl a Greater Ribbon of Disguise to more thoroughly alter her appearance, have her start using an assumed name, and begin doing weekly Divinations to gauge the likelihood of discovery of her identity by our enemies.
 
Oh, the walking XP bags? Bring them on, the magelings and legionnaires can use the practice.

I'd prefer to settle the city quickly and have them get XP conquering new things, with the added benefit of having fewer people we like (a bright slave with a new idea, a young braavosi come to Tyrosh to serve as a clerk, etc.) being assassinated by people willing to die for their cause.
 
It's not a PR hit. Torturers are far from uncommon among lords and kings. This would be status quo. ASOIAF =/= modern society, a torturer is not something to gasp at.

As for magic -- sure, but you'd have to have Malarys handle everything then, and he doesn't have the time for that.

Oh, the walking XP bags? Bring them on, the magelings and legionnaires can use the practice.

Torturers are unnecessary. If we want to make someone suffer, there are spells that can do that better than any muggle with crude tools could possibly manage.

It requires virtually no effort to be seen as above such things.
 
I'd prefer to settle the city quickly and have them get XP conquering new things, with the added benefit of having fewer people we like (a bright slave with a new idea, a young braavosi come to Tyrosh to serve as a clerk, etc.) being assassinated by people willing to die for their cause.
No, you said yourself that these Sons of the Harpy types were going to pop up anyway no matter what we do. Those I see no problem looking forward to. I know there isn't a chance in hell we'd deliberately sow disorder in Tyrosh.
Torturers are unnecessary. If we want to make someone suffer, there are spells that can do that better than any muggle with crude tools could possibly manage.

It requires virtually no effort to be seen as above such things.
Right. Die screaming, the spell. It's been a while since we got to use that.

Good idea!
 
Pointlessly complicated, and just one extra layer of deception that would need to be maintained.

Give the girl a Greater Ribbon of Disguise to more thoroughly alter her appearance, have her start using an assumed name, and begin doing weekly Divinations to gauge the likelihood of discovery of her identity by our enemies.

All good, and is constant checking which should reassure her with regard to her worry of enemy divinations (yay! She's learning paranoia like any reasonable adventurer).

Apart from give her father instant communication, I'm drawing a blank on everything that isn't "move the castle, local village and local inhabitants", but I think I'm just fixated on "can" over "should"
I hope one of our Archivists hit level 3 in the fighting.
 
All good, and is constant checking which should reassure her with regard to her worry of enemy divinations (yay! She's learning paranoia like any reasonable adventurer).

Apart from give her father instant communication, I'm drawing a blank on everything that isn't "move the castle, local village and local inhabitants", but I think I'm just fixated on "can" over "should"
I hope one of our Archivists hit level 3 in the fighting.
We should be looking at quite a few very nice levelups. We just need to have DP tell us the XP gains.

4x Legion Wizards lvl 1
6x Legion Wizards lvl 2
2x Legion Wizards lvl 3 (1 Detached Duty Salladhor Saan)

2x Legion Hedge Mages lvl 1
15x Legion Hedge Mages lvl 2
2x Legion Hedge Mages lvl 3

3x Legion Archivist lvl 1
2x Legion Archivist lvl 2

5x Legion Adepts lvl 1
3x Legion Adept lvl 2

6x Legion Sorcerers lvl 1
Like, at the very least everyone should be at level 2 by now. They helped win a war in less than a day.
 
Right. Die screaming, the spell. It's been a while since we got to use that.

Good idea!

Huh? Why bother? Check for geas/compulsion, curse with honesty, stab and heal while asking about the topics we're interested in. They will talk, and we will know they are not lying. We don't need skill. And the seeker has 10 ranks anyway, if we really want a torturer.
Or dominate.
*Shrugs*
 
No, you said yourself that these Sons of the Harpy types were going to pop up anyway no matter what we do. Those I see no problem looking forward to. I know there isn't a chance in hell we'd deliberately sow disorder in Tyrosh.

Some will appear. Their numbers, dedication, and resources can all be impacted and minimized. Or, maximized if we take a heavy, but not genocidal hand.

Pointlessly complicated, and just one extra layer of deception that would need to be maintained.

Give the girl a Greater Ribbon of Disguise to more thoroughly alter her appearance, have her start using an assumed name, and begin doing weekly Divinations to gauge the likelihood of discovery of her identity by our enemies.

Rather than the original "pretend to learn to be a cleric plan," would occasional mentoring of the dragonseed sorcerers also be too complicated? It would have her cover identity regularly seen with them, which would lead people to the sort of assumptions we want (that she's a more powerful dragonseed).
 
Huh? Why bother? Check for geas/compulsion, curse with honesty, stab and heal while asking about the topics we're interested in. They will talk, and we will know they are not lying. We don't need skill. And the seeker has 10 ranks anyway, if we really want a torturer.
Or dominate.
*Shrugs*
To soften a prisoner up, mainly. That combined with a Zone of Truth spell would make everything very, very smooth. You'd know they weren't just making stuff up. But the main point is that we can't just discount the uses of torture/interrogation techniques and rely solely on magic when so few of our subordinates are at the level that they can pull it off.
Some will appear. Their numbers, dedication, and resources can all be impacted and minimized. Or, maximized if we take a heavy, but not genocidal hand.
I'll take what I can get. The Inquisition will have a blast.

But weren't we going to deliberately provoke some kind of initial revolt so we'd have an excuse to crush it? We need examples made of out of the slavers.
 
Rather than the original "pretend to learn to be a cleric plan," would occasional mentoring of the dragonseed sorcerers also be too complicated? It would have her cover identity regularly seen with them, which would lead people to the sort of assumptions we want (that she's a more powerful dragonseed).

That's more practical and make a lot more sense.
 
That's more practical and make a lot more sense.

Is there nothing to be said for rescuing her father's castle, village and all the people in them? ;). Can we have it as plan c/d?

Have to check plans, but the additional emergency communication item is very appealing, if they are not in the plan already :)
 
To soften a prisoner up, mainly. That combined with a Zone of Truth spell would make everything very, very smooth. You'd know they weren't just making stuff up. But the main point is that we can't just discount the uses of torture/interrogation techniques and rely solely on magic when so few of our subordinates are at the level that they can pull it off.

Curse is level 3/4 divine/arcane. That + knife + healing removes any and all need for dedicated skill. I agree that there are probably fewer third level casters than professional torturers available to us, but for how much longer? It takes one spell per victim and the rest can be done with a dedicated low level healer (like, cure minor wounds), a knife and a bit of honesty (can hurt victim, but they won't die).
Getting full time tort peeps seems unnecessary imo
 
[X] Diomedon

C'mon, I wanna see a variety show and all the headaches these clowns bring. Not "Judge Judy that Burns the Guilty, Live."
 
[X] Diomedon
We will be searching through everyone's libraries, right?
Right?
 
Vote closed
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 10, 2018 at 2:28 AM, finished with 187969 posts and 4 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 10, 2018 at 2:28 AM, finished with 216 posts and 16 votes.

  • [X] Plan Good News, Everyone!
    -[X] Try to strengthen Valaena's cover
    --[X] While you appreciate the though and consideration she has put towards this, you would prefer she stay in Sorcerer's Deep. You have already taken some dragonseeds into your service, and you plan on visiting Dragonstone again shortly. With a Greater Ribbon, she would be able to ensure she'd maintain a consistent cover, and dragonseeds in the dance showed the ability to command dragons. If she would take to mentoring the other dragonseeds who have awakened their magic, it would only add to the story.
    --[X] Additionally, you have given some thought to making some items that would permit your allies to contact you more easily in an emergency. Such things would help her concerns in regard to her family.
    -[X] During the meeting, use amanuensis to make copies of your constitution to hand out to the magisters afterwards, as a casual display of magical power.
    -[X] Greet the gathered magisters in false good cheer. Their acknowledgement of the ill rule that had permitted a festering, decadent rot to strangle the city the last few months is good to hear, as are their concerns for the proper business of trade and the plight of those in chains.
    -[X] You are here to reassure them. The slaves of Tyrosh are not going to be simply freed and tossed out to starve, leaving the city in chaos. You will see to it that slaves will receive an adequate compensation from their owners for their service, suggestions for what the lowest wages to pay servants for those who are not familiar with such things to those who wish to remain, and pursuits to direct those who wish to leave their current work towards, such as your legion which already consist of many who were once in bondage. That way, even the most wayward person could be shepherded into being of use to the city, with the very few who cannot seeing justice.
    -[X] Legitimate, non-slave based, trade, of course, will resume. You would not wish to see the city or it's leading citizens impoverished. Of course, there will be some disruption, but if someone is unable to make a profit with a trading vessel, surely they did not deserve such wealth in the first place, even if that means changing the nature of their trade.
    [X] And you are glad you managed to save this city from the rot within. You excised the worst of it last night, things such as this (toss a leukadaemon head in their midst), but there might still remain some dangers, and of course there is the matter of those who opened the door with their excesses and degenerate behavior. Those whose cruelty knew no restraint, whose sins overflowed, who drew the fiends to the city like flies to a rotting carcass. Tyrosh as you know it is dead. Had we not come to save it, it would have been damned and devoured. No amount of Unsullied, slaves or gold would have saved the magisters from that fate. Tyrosh is dead and it will have to be brought to new life as a great city once again.
    [X] Cooly announce the arrest of the magisters from your list, who are present, as among those suspected of attracting the Daemons to the city through their degeneracy, guarantee them a fair trial and consideration in sentencing for presenting themselves to you. Of those present, you will send a small legion detachment home with each of them to seize their documentation, explain things to their former slaves, and see that your will is carried out. You appreciate their cooperation. You will be sending much larger detachments to arrest the others from your list, to seize the documents of all who did not come, and to bring them and their families before you, though you will not be pleased, unlike you are with the magisters before you.
    -[X] If at any point a magister interrupts with a pointless objection, have them arrested immediately and dragged from the room, resuming as if nothing occurred once they are removed.
    [X] Plan AD;AI
    -[X] Make a show of examining the room.
    -[X] "When I saw this hall the first time, I boggled at its state. At how much gold and jewels had been wasted on this pointless display of self importance. But now? Now I finally understand. Why someone would build a room like this and how this city could ignore the foulness within its walls so long. It is all gilding. A sheen of gold to hide the rot beneath."
    -[X] Use Blood Wish to cast Greater Shape Stone to make the ceiling and walls ripple, so that the entire gilding, tapestries, gems and what not come crashing down.
    -[X] "Tyrosh as you know it is dead. Had I not come to save it, it would have bee damned. *Throw a daemon head at their midst*. No amount of Unsullied, slaves or gold would have saved you from that fate. Tyrosh is dead and it will have to be brought to new life. It's time to make Tyrosh great again.
    -[X] "The hands of former slaves will rebuild it and we will pay for it with the useless baubles amassed by those who traded in the blood and lives of their fellow men like pit-spawn would. I will not beggar a man for doing as all his neighbors did, but rest assured that inquires will be made about the doings of the so-called great houses. Those who accept this new order and aid it shall find a place at my table. But those who only know how to trade in misery and despair, those who might even have aided the creatures gathering beneath this city..."
    -[X] Shake your head again. The point should be amply clear.
    -[X] "There are, as of now, no slaves in Tyrosh. The ones you "own" are to be freed immediately. Every. Single. One of them."
    -[X] "You may, of course, retain their services, but only with their agreement. You are all to give them a chance at leaving with a decent pouch of silver in hand for which to start a new life. To this end, I'm going to send a few fellow countrymen of yours who have tasted freedom to speak to your ex-slaves. You will be escorted to your manses in turn, and you will turn over any relevant documentation that is asked of you. You shall not interfere or intimidate your ex-slaves into staying. Each of you will come before me and say you will cooperate to the best of your ability. If you feel you can't honestly say that, then don't, for liars will be executed on the spot. Simply instruct your servants to cooperate and stay within the palace as business is done.
    -[X] When they come to promise cooperation, lie (have the guards strip them of valuables and burn them on the spot if that's the case) or simply close their eyes and grimace in acceptance, have each tell you how they are useful to you.
    -[X] When they are all about to leave, cast Zone of Truth by the doors, have the guards there ask if they were truthful, and then if they withheld, or tend to withhold anything. If any can't answer, the guards kill them.
    -[X] Have your Legionnaires confiscate documentation as to all their business and assets. We will make good use of the information.
 
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Curse is level 3/4 divine/arcane. That + knife + healing removes any and all need for dedicated skill. I agree that there are probably fewer third level casters than professional torturers available to us, but for how much longer? It takes one spell per victim and the rest can be done with a dedicated low level healer (like, cure minor wounds), a knife and a bit of honesty (can hurt victim, but they won't die).
Getting full time tort peeps seems unnecessary imo
I'm slightly confused as to how what you're proposing doesn't also count as torture. You want to inflict pain until they cough up answers—torture. Doesn't matter that you have magic to make it a bit cleaner, it's still torture.
 
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Had it all been for naught? Then as the light guttered one last time behind the sacrifice's eyes... a resounding crack almost like metal tearing echoed though the chamber.

"The sacrifice" now is it?
Very interesting, she's adaptable you gotta give her that much.

Also speaking of snazzy uniforms. Whose up for pimping out the Legions uniforms with Snail Poop!?

It's multicolored poop too! From Sea snails so we could probably sell a couple tons of the stuff in the Opaline Vault for Iron and Copper and stuff. Plus the city has Peach Brandy. Between the two we can get enough Copper to redo the cities plumbing next turn. The current one has far too much demon goop in it to be sanitary for my tastes.:p

Obviously this was a happy coincidence and not the overarching motivation for conquering Tyrosh.:rolleyes:


But the main point is that we can't just discount the uses of torture/interrogation techniques and rely solely on magic when so few of our subordinates are at the level that they can pull it off.

You can and should because they are ineffective relative to mundane techniques that don't involve torture.

You're discussing this

Magic > Torture > Nothing

When reality is

Magic > Non-Torture Mundane Techniques > Nothing > Torture
 
You can and should because they are ineffective relative to mundane techniques that don't involve torture.

You're discussing this

Magic > Torture > Nothing

When reality is

Magic > Non-Torture Mundane Techniques > Nothing > Torture
This is wrong. A bit of low-level magic with Zone of Truth is what makes torture effective. The reason torture is ineffective in the real world is that people will say anything to get the torture to stop. Here they'll be compelled to only tell the truth, or at least not spew out random "facts". If you have stronger magic on hand then of course go for it, but if not then this is a perfectly valid method.
 
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I'm slightly confused as to how what you're proposing doesn't also count as torture. You want to inflict pain until they cough up answers—torture. Doesn't matter that you have magic to make it a bit cleaner, it's still torture.

100% torture, just not getting a person who has it as their full time/primary job.

Also, curse, while a higher spell level than ZoT, is better for individuals, due to will saves and knowing if the spell has taken or not - dp has it that one can save ZoT, and the caster does not know. (see when viserys met tyene).

Curse is a bit eiser to check as one can tell if it takes or not. (see rakasha cursing in Tyrosh)

ZoT is level 2 aoe over time, curse lvl 3 single target permanent
 
This is wrong. A bit of low-level magic with Zone of Truth is what makes torture effective. The reason torture is ineffective in the real world is that people will say anything to get the torture to stop. Here they'll be compelled to only tell the truth, or at least not spew out random "facts". If you have stronger magic on hand then of course go for it, but if not then this is a perfectly valid method.
Zone of Truth cast by an item or low-level mage is no more reliable than a person with high Sense Motive.

Let's say you have a regular Mystic with WIS 15 doing the interrogation.
ZoT would have DC 14, which any commoner can beat by luck and any level 5 Expert (perfectly possible for skilled traders or nobles) can beat with a better than half chance.
And you can't tell if someone is affected by the Zone without the Sense Motive check you'd have to make to catch them lying anyway.

To make torture reliable you need people on the same levels that would also make it unecessary due to other options. Suggestion is just level 3 and you can tell by Detect Magic if someone is affected or not.

[X] Diomedon

I really wanted that Greater Stoneshape, if only for the aesthetics.
 
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