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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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The problem is that these Gods are not sufficient in general for fostering faith. Our problem isn't getting people to direct belief in things, they already put their faith in Viserys.

The problem is that people want their lives to be controlled, or they want to have control, or to be more accurate, a world that is controlled, preferably by them, is one which is ideal, and the world cannot be controlled if everyone in it is not controlled. By something.

That is why millions of people put their faith and belief in Burny. Because no matter how shitty things get, Burny has the power, has empowered them, and will save them. All the blood and loss of life, all the flames and the wars and the dying, it all means something. Counterpoint here, the Red Faith is based around control. They even get to determine who fits the envelop for their messianic savior, not even based on facts, not even wholly on feelings, but instead circumstances and ability to influence.

Benerro in canon putting his cards on the table and supporting Dany as Azor Ahai, in contrast to Mel, who pinned her hopes on Stannis... because both believe they can control the outcome if their chosen champion is the "true savior" of the world. Benerro because the Old Blood of Volantis, in his sphere of influence, want to cast down and kill Dany, so obviously his political enemies' enemy is his friend.

Mel, because Stannis is isolated, needs her and her God to score a real victory, and can be influenced towards spreading her faith when pretty much everyone else would have little interest in her God, because all other candidates are either lacking enough power, enough control, as to be undesirable, or not being able to be influenced and controlled by her. In that, Stannis was ideal in one way: he needed Mel. So long as he needed her, even if she had to fabricate the details to support her version of the truth, that's all that mattered.

The Moonsingers do not care about control. They are the opposite of that. Quasi-Anarchists, no matter how benign, do not provide the support structure that the vast majority of the teeming masses need.
 
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The issue in general that people will have with Gods that people want to worship is that said gods tend to have goals and desires, some of which will inevitably run counter to those of the thread.

The more agreeable Gods (Yss, Old Gods) generally don't care what their worshipers do so long as they don't act against them. This sort of pragmatism is bad at generating worshipers, because it means that said worshipers don't really have an ideal to work towards, some sort of goal to reach in order to please their God.

The Two Gods that generally provide said goals in the clearest way are Rh'llor and the Seven, both of which the thread don't tend to like. Both also happen to have initiative and plans that do not perfectly align with the thread, which is no good.

An example of two other Gods who can bring forth real devotion are Tiamat and Bahamut. Although both are dragons, both have very clear things that they want, and these things make it very clear what any would be worshiper has to do in order to gain their favor.

TL: DR the most influential Gods are those that are the most interventionist, which is why the Seven and Rh'llor can have so many worshipers despite having in general pretty terrible tenets.
 
Personally, our leaning this heavily on religion is counter-productive. Co-operating with ones who do not interfere with our own goals and who's motives do not run counter to our own is good. Their power can be utilized like a craftsman's tools, fulfilling a specific purpose for a specific occasion.

Gods who have their own motives and ambitions are bad, because their ambitions and motives tend to be absolute and unforgiving, which is bad for us.

We do not want to get in bed with any of these kinds of Gods, nor do we really need ones who actively try to dictate what we can or can't do, or interfere with our own projects. These are political rivals, no matter how much religions claim to be uninvolved in such, they are just another political organization trying to supersede the Government in power. Some with soft influencing, others with hard influencing.

What we need to do is get people to put less faith in deities, even get them to start "god shopping" like Viserys and Dany do, and start putting their faith in our Government. That's all the intervention we need them to desire, and all the intervention we need.
 
@Crake, the issue is we want to conquer.

When we conquer Tyrosh, we take on all the problems and complications of Tyrosh. When we conquer the Free Cities as a whole, we take on all the problems and complications of the Free Cities. R'hllor is a preeminent deity across the Free Cities, so when we conquer the Free Cities, we take R'hllor into our midst. The issue in having them put their faith in us is a simple one, it's that we don't offer squat in the afterlife. R'hllor does.
 
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Ah, D&D cosmology, how you vex me so. I guess these discussions are rather circular in that the answer is always, in the end... "become a God or give concessions to the religious zealots".
 
Honestly, I don't see us finding a god that can rival Rhlor in his chosen domains, not really.
He's just too big, too aggressive and too expansionist.

But adding some mor-or-less minor gods to our cities? As a way to get some religious diversity and as such not get boggled down with the tidal wave of burny worshippers?
Totally okay. So long as these gods aren't going to infringe on our politics, projects and other stuff, of course.

Weeping Lady and Moonsingers won't do much at all, but they'll make a nice buffer of sorts to slow down Burny worship and make life easier for us.

Also, the more gods are available for our citizens, the more diverse the pool they choose from, the generally better it is and the closer they come to "shopping for gods".
Let's be honest, they don't have a lot of choice right now.
 
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Yeah, I guess under the very narrow band of logic under which that hinges on, flooding our city with as many Gods as possible is one way to create distractions for the more problematic religions to contend with.

But probably more likely to lead to the same situation as in Braavos. Tons of Gods losing worship and becoming forgotten, and a mere handful of more influential ones holding the vast majority of the demographics in the city.
 
Crake said:
Yeah, I guess under the very narrow band of logic under which that hinges on, flooding our city with as many Gods as possible is one way to create distractions for the more problematic religions to contend with.

But probably more likely to lead to the same situation as in Braavos. Tons of Gods losing worship and becoming forgotten, and a mere handful of more influential ones holding the vast majority of the demographics in the city.
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Imperial assignment, God X for Task/Concept Y, we've already started with Yss and Commerce.

Forget the disadvantaged we target the underlying issues, we need a god of healing, could be the Old Gods, they're quite willing to provide it and it ties the concept close to us, food and water is in a similar position.

If we want to weaken Burny specifically we undercut him specifically, a god of Smiths and Forges, a God of Hearths, we already light our cities with Faefire etc.

If they have no niche to snuggle into they'll be fighting an uphill battle through history while we keep relevant those gods we find tolerable.
 
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R'hllor is far too established to give two shits about some minor deities, @Deliste. That is the crux of the matter. We're not talking about some up and coming deity whose efforts we can cockblock, but a deity worshiped by a good chunk of Essos. R'hllor offers people meaning, a purpose, a dream, R'hllor gives the countless slaves across the Free Cities hope that there is something beyond the misery that is their lot in life.
 
Crake said:
The Moonsingers do not care about control. They are the opposite of that. Quasi-Anarchists, no matter how benign, do not provide the support structure that the vast majority of the teeming masses need.
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Remind each man that he can have the power to shape his destiny?

If they want something to follow they can trust in Viserys to keep their life's ordered and them save.
If not, just ask Dany who will remind you that your soul and body are your own and you can achieve anything (if the dice and DP's whim make you a PC at least).

There we have two valid paths, neither requiring deities. To accept our order or to trust in yourself.
 
Paradosi said:
R'hllor is far too established to give two shits about some minor deities, @Deliste. That is the crux of the matter. We're not talking about some up and coming deity whose efforts we can cockblock, but a deity worshiped by a good chunk of Essos. R'hllor offers people meaning, a purpose, a dream, R'hllor gives the countless slaves across the Free Cities hope that there is something beyond the misery that is their lot in life.
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What you're saying is "We literally have no way to deal with him, unless killing him and making lots and lots of people miserable (nevermind it'll be at epic levels only) counts".

Sure, we can't in any way affect his bigger plans, but at the very least, we should be able to make it harder for his faith to spread through our empire, and especially - Sorcerer's Deep.
 
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Paradosi said:
R'hllor is far too established to give two shits about some minor deities, @Deliste. That is the crux of the matter. We're not talking about some up and coming deity whose efforts we can cockblock, but a deity worshiped by a good chunk of Essos. R'hllor offers people meaning, a purpose, a dream, R'hllor gives the countless slaves across the Free Cities hope that there is something beyond the misery that is their lot in life.
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I don't give two shits about R'hllor, find why people go to him, provide it elsewhere. Job done.
 
OK vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by Massgamer on Apr 1, 2018 at 11:15 PM, finished with 346 posts and 20 votes.
  • [X] Plan Without A Fancy Name
    -[X] "There is far more truth in the sailors yarn in these dark times then we would like. Vast are the powers arrayed against us and yet we squabble among each other instead of uniting against them."
    -[X] "I must admit my knowledge of the Red Gods scripture is far from perfect, so tell me Baedor, do you believe in fate?"
    -[X] "I ask this question, for our meeting here feels like a mirror of a day long ago. It was the power of the god who this temple here will honor that I invoked to protect the faithful of yours in Lys. Demon caller they branded me for my aid and told me to not darken their halls any longer. And now here you stand before me, talking about erecting such a place in my lands."
    -[X] "You would not be here, had I no hope for this endeavor. I saw the depraved acts perpetrated by the creatures some in Essos call gods, so I know that the wariness of the Red Priests is far from unfounded, yet you will find those honored on these shores an all-together different sort."
    -[X] "Many a Red Priest spoke of Light to me, yet all too many also spoke of chains and it was flames they promised at the barest mention of other gods and their workings. Should I build a temple for your god, would it be content to sit among the others? Next to the temple of the Great Serpent? Among the trees of the Old Gods? By the temple of the Merling King? Or would it preach to cast those others down and bring new yokes to the necks of those living on these shores, who gave so much blood to cast them off?"
    -[X] "We can't afford disunity in the face of the trials to come. The Great Enemy stirs and they will care little what god holds sway over our souls, when they come to snuff us out. Gladly I will erect a temple to a god that brings light to banish the darkness, but I cannot invite one who would rather see our bulwarks burn then to share them with others."
    -[X] Leave a short pause after his reply and idly offer: "Should you wish to bear witness as this temple here is consecrated, none shall bar your passage."
    [X] Malarys Level Up Justicar
    [X] Make sure Daenerys and Lya takes the time to learn consecrate from Yrael / willing celestial. Before they leave for Mantarys. :(
    [X] I do believe the deep waters would benefit from more light, it is the fire i think would present a logistical problem (smile), have you considered that perhaps they are not meant to serve your god in the same way you believe men are?.
    -[X] As for royal favor for your temple, I admit I am not the most pious man, the grand temples you see here on my kingdom are not a tribute, but evidence of a bond, as they stood with me and my companions in our time of need, so will we help them and their followers against our mutual enemies. Should the day come when i can truly say the Lord of Light has stood with me against the enemies of mankind, and the opportunity presents itself to create a temple around an artifact of his power, then you shall have my favor.
    [X] Ha.
    -[X] No
    --[X] Fuck No. Pick a ship to fuck off on, promoter of slavery.
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Paradosi said:
The issue in having them put their faith in us is a simple one, it's that we don't offer squat in the afterlife. R'hllor does.
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Okay, how can we fix that?
@TotallyNotEvil ever seen a RAW solution to that? Could we use Genesis and Wish to make a plane where Petitioners would go upon death, for example?
Well, that or we could lie. Make a huge, shiny magical beacon and promise that it gathers up the souls of the dead and carries them to heavenly realms. It'd be best if it really did work (to avoid Divinations discrediting us to the rich and such) but even that isn't really necessary.
 
Deliste said:
I don't give two shits about R'hllor, find why people go to him, provide it elsewhere. Job done.
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How? Just cause we provide alternatives, it doesn't mean that R'hllor's worshipers will all rush to convert.

My point has been quite simple, it's that R'hllor will not just kick back and chillax as we plot and scheme, but will counteract our efforts. If we make R'hllor our enemy, our conquest of the Free Cities goes from difficult to a downright clusterfuck. If we want to go after R'hllor, I'd rather do it when we can afford it, when we can do more than pinpricks. What do you think the CR on R'hllor is?
 
Paradosi said:
How? Just cause we provide alternatives, it doesn't mean that R'hllor's worshipers will all rush to convert.

My point has been quite simple, it's that R'hllor will not just kick back and chillax as we plot and scheme, but will counteract our efforts. If we make R'hllor our enemy, our conquest of the Free Cities goes from difficult to a downright clusterfuck. If we want to go after R'hllor, I'd rather do it when we can afford it, when we can do more than pinpricks. What do you think the CR on R'hllor is?
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What exactly is he gonna do? This isn't a crusade, it's an arms race of charity.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Okay, how can we fix that?
@TotallyNotEvil ever seen a RAW solution to that? Could we use Genesis and Wish to make a plane where Petitioners would go upon death, for example?
Well, that or we could lie. Make a huge, shiny magical beacon and promise that it gathers up the souls of the dead and carries them to heavenly realms. It'd be best if it really did work (to avoid Divinations discrediting us to the rich and such) but even that isn't really necessary.
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It's rather simple.

Since we are not in Faerun here people who didn't worship a god go to the plane that's most fitting for their souls naturally.
Be a good person, go upstairs.
Be neutral, end up in Axis or Limbo or some other neutral place.

Those are all decent alternatives and require no divine intervention, only for you to be a sufficiently decent person not to go to Hell, Abyss or Abaddon.
 
Artemis1992 said:
It's rather simple.

Since we are not in Faerun here people who didn't worship a god go to the plane that's most fitting for their souls naturally.
Be a good person, go upstairs.
Be neutral, end up in Axis or Limbo or some other neutral place.

Those are all decent alternatives and require no divine intervention, only for you to be a sufficiently decent person not to go to Hell, Abyss or Abaddon.
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Well yes, but people won't just believe that will they? It goes against everything they've ever believed in, really.
No, we need some kind of fancy Imperial dogma or trickery.
Oh, maybe when people know that you can raise others from the dead we can do it publicly a few times and immediately Dominate the person to make them say "yeah I totally went to Dragon-heaven where the Emperor keeps everyone safe and happy for all eternity".
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Well yes, but people won't just believe that will they? It goes against everything they've ever believed in, really.
No, we need some kind of fancy Imperial dogma or trickery.
Oh, maybe when people know that you can raise others from the dead we can do it publicly a few times and immediately Dominate the person to make them say "yeah I totally went to Dragon-heaven where the Emperor keeps everyone safe and happy for all eternity".
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Well, we can sell it as part of our dogma, since it is actually true and works independant of us that shouldn't be much of a problem, we can even prove it.

Like, Planeshift to heaven and find a good guy who followed our believes, he can confirm it.
He wouldn't know that it was just the natural flow of things that send him here, not us.

Or alternativly call over that Monadic (?) Deva and let her tell how it is.
 
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Part MDCCCLXXVI: Paths of Faith
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    • Paths of Faith ​

    Seventh Day of the Second Month 293 AC

    "There is far more truth in the sailors yarn in these dark times then we would like. Vast are the powers arrayed against us and yet we squabble among each other instead of uniting against them," you begin, carefully. As many times as you had said these words you might almost recite them in your sleep, yet they are no less true for it.

    "Beg pardon your grace but I see no quarrel in these lands. All follow you with utmost trust in their hearts," the priest deflects adroitly. You can hardly take umbrage at the flattery.

    You nod slightly in acknowledgement, but after a moment try another path. "I must admit my knowledge of the Red Gods scripture is far from perfect, so tell me Baedor, do you believe in fate?"

    "I believe that the Lord of Light in his mercy has a path set before each of us, but it is for us to decide if we would walk it, or instead wander blind in the darkness beyond his reach," the priest replies visibly pleased to launch into reciting his creed.

    Alas that you have another purpose in mind. "I did not ask this question idly, for our meeting here feels like a mirror of a day long ago. It was the power of the god who this temple here will honor that I invoked to protect the faithful of yours in Lys. Demon caller they branded me for my aid and told me to not darken their halls any longer. And now here you stand before me, talking about erecting such a place in my lands."

    The red-robed man's features darken, though only in thought, not anger or even surprise. "It is not for men to know all ends, lord. Mayhap even those servants of the Mighty One who have fallen from the Light without embracing the Darkness might have some purpose to serve in the end of all things. Carry not a grudge in your heart against the God for the times his servants have erred."

    If nothing else this Baedor is very quick on his feet, or more likely prepared for this very conversation. Little matter, for that too can be of use. Too well do you know how rationalization may beget rationalization until the underpinnings of reason itself might shift. Why not faith also? Thus you offer a concession: "You would not be here, had I no hope for this endeavor. I saw the depraved acts perpetrated by the creatures some in Essos call gods, so I know that the wariness of the Red Priests is far from unfounded, yet you will find those honored on these shores an all-together different sort."

    "Beyond the lighted path tis hard to tell the fellow lost traveler from the brigand yet they are not the same for all that," the priest offers with the air of man quoting or perhaps paraphrasing scripture. Perhaps you should one day take the time to read the holly texts of R'hllor the Red if for no other cause than to find how they might be best countered.

    "So you would raise your temple next to the temple of the Great Serpent, among the trees of the Old Gods, or by the temple of the Merling King?" you press. Ultimately if you could foster among the Red Priests a spirit of understanding, however grudging, your conquests and plans of Essos would be much advanced.

    "Did we not set our temples near those of other gods for years beyond count?" Baedor answers a question with one of his own. "All who are lost will find their way to the light in time."

    "A noble sentiment..." if true, you think but do not say. "Yet I fear time is shorter than you think. The Great Enemy stirs and they will care little for what god holds sway over our souls, when they come to snuff us out. Gladly I will erect a temple to a god that brings light to banish the darkness, but I cannot invite one who would rather see our bulwarks burn then to share them with others."

    Color drains from the priest's face, his previous poise forgotten. "What do you know of the Enemy?" he asks urgently.

    What do you reply?

    [] Write in

    OOC: Baedor had a considerable bonus to social combat from being prepared for this very conversation. What he was not prepared for it the mention that the Great Other is on the rise.
     
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    • Well I didn't expect that reaction from the priest. When Burny learns of this hope he doesn't mess with Bloodraven's plans. How much should we tell him?
     
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