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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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DragonParadox said:
Not offer as much support as they would have otherwise. the Dukes have their own power and their own powerbase.
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What kind of support would they have given?

The Curia is a sham, the Iron Islands don't really need any old-school lords as trading partners (at least not that I can think of) and our allocation of support and funding is not in the hands of traditionalist aristocrats.

Crake said:
I mean, we could just do what we did with Oberyn and convince them rash decisions decided upon early in the morning with either violence or sex on the brain is a bad idea and they should re-think it.
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Why though?
If they wanted to marry anyway they might as well do it in a scandalous manner, that is their good right.

Edit: To be clear, if this were a spontaneous decision to marry I'd support stopping them, but the marriage was already in planning, they are just going against tradition, they are not jumping into any long-term decisions they haven't already made.
 
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Artemis1992 said:
What kind of support would they have given?

The Curia is a sham, the Iron Islands don't really need any old-school lords as trading partners (at least not that I can think of) and our allocation of support and funding is not in the hands of traditionalist aristocrats.
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One of the main reasons Asha is marrying Horas is to get the support of his family... who are probably going to be among the most pissed at least initially.
 
DragonParadox said:
One of the main reasons Asha is marrying Horas is to get the support of his family... who are probably going to be among the most pissed at least initially.
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Yeah, but what exactly do they need the support of House Redwyne of the Arbor for?

I think this might be a case were I genuinly dont understand politics in our Imperium, because I don't see any real benefit to having another province as your ally.
Redwyne senior can't even stop trade between their lands, nevermind deny them military aid or anything like that, all that is centralised.
 
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Artemis1992 said:
Yeah, but what exactly do they need the support of House Redwyne of the Arbor for?

I think this might be a case were I genuinly dont understand politics in our Imperium, because I don't see any real benefit to having another province as your ally.
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Trade benefits, for one thing.

But Asha already has Viserys' pledged support for turning the Iron Isles productive, so what Asha is doing is basically spiting her nose to save her face, or something. She's basically pissed about the behavior of the traditionalists like Horas' parents, so she is telling them "we're gonna do things my way or you can take the highway", and if that trend continues and she doesn't try to meet them in the middle, her wedding to Horas is mostly going to be the equivalent of the two eloping because Asha won't give ground on social issues, only "practical ones".
 
Artemis1992 said:
Yeah, but what exactly do they need the support of House Redwyne of the Arbor for?

I think this might be a case were I genuinly dont understand politics in our Imperium, because I don't see any real benefit to having another province as your ally.
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Well look at it this way, the provinces have their own taxes, their own wealth and their own unique resources to call on, not all change has to come from the top for all aid. So for instance Duke Redwyne could send some people skilled in the growing of grapes to the islands to see if there is any place you might be able to do it there or he might help retrain shipwrights whose skills are more to war galleys than long haul trade galleons, that sort of thing.
 
The concern of Horas' parents is, "She would not grit her teeth and bear with the wedding proceedings like most people expect her to do, and in that case how can I trust her to keep her word on any of the agreements we have if they fall into the same case as "a waste of her time", when the wedding in of itself is supposed to showcase to the realm her commitment to our alliance?"

It's not completely correct as a point of view, but that's just because Asha and Horas don't see the worth of clinging to old representations and iconography for power and influence when there are new opportunities to gain both.
 
DragonParadox said:
Well look at it this way, the provinces have their own taxes, their own wealth and their own unique resources to call on, not all change has to come from the top for all aid. So for instance Duke Redwyne could send some people skilled in the growing of grapes to the islands to see if there is any place you might be able to do it there or he might help retrain shipwrights whose skills are more to war galleys than long haul trade galleons, that sort of thing.
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Sure, but he can't stop Asha from hiring such experts independantly.
She can right now hire winemakers from Tyrosh and shipbuilders from Braavos, all at a price that is not cheap for a private investor, but should be laughable at a ducal budget.
 
In practice even if the Redwyne Duke is pissed, the marriage alliance is still on (indeed, it is already finalized) so him choosing to delay his support for a little while to show displeasure doesn't actually earn him anything except Asha reciprocating from her side of the negotiations.

He'll probably do it anyways, but that's because he's not so smart as he probably thinks himself to be, delaying is a losing move.
 
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Artemis1992 said:
Sure, but he can't stop Asha from hiring such experts independantly.
She can right now hire winemakers from Tyrosh and shipbuilders from Braavos, all at a price that is not cheap for a private investor, but should be laughable at a ducal budget.
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Yes, but that would be harder, after all if she were without any help she could still try to act entirely on her own. That does not mean it is desirable.
 
@DragonParadox

The point I'm trying to make, I think, is that due to a mix of regulations from above, far greater range in trade-opportunities and the inclusion of a wide variety of different cultures (or at least two major ones (West and East), split into many different sub-groups, the dissaproval of their neighbours is distinctly less meaningful than it once was.

Even if Asha did something so aburdly scandalous that she became a pariah among all of continental Westeros it would be merely a hindrance, not a catastrophe. Pissing off only a few other dukes is nearly meaningless, because everything they could have provided can be gained elsewhere and with continuing royal support it will be available at reasonable price and without major blockades in the way (as the Sealord will care much less for the opinion of some Reachers than he will for ours).

We have, not totally but to some degree, centralised the ability to apply social pressure in actually meaningful ways, more than most nobles currently know or believe. Not intentionally maybe, but together with the rest of our reforms we did it anyway. Displeasure or support of the Crown or the central organs beneath it hits much harder than than your nearby social-classmates or the church could.

Now that I think about it that sounds like something Azel might have arranged intentionally.
 
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That was kind of my point though, she does not lose anything she really needs to function in her position, the baseline of state regulation makes sure that is the case, but she will probably not get as much help as she otherwise would have gotten
 
I'm entirely sure I understand what the big deal of a scandal is. Would the lords whine to Viserys about it and to do something?
 
"You want me to interfere in your marriages?"

"Err, no, just THIS one!"

"...hmmmmm..."

*sweating*
 
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DragonParadox said:
OOC: Teenagers with power rush into major decisions, news at eleven. This was more than anything to show the consequences of having some of your high nobles be so very young. Yes they are less conservative and less bound to the old world, but they are also likely to marry at six a clock in the morning, running on pure emotional reactions to a bad visit.
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Amusingly enough, while this course of action is extremely hasty to say the least, I'm not sure it's not actually a better start to a marriage than the way Westerosi nobles usually handle it. ;)

And yeah, it fits Asha's character really well.
 
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