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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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I also first learned about Hobbes in philosophy class. Until the latest reforms he was a mandatory part of the curriculum for most French high-school students.

Why would you learn about him from the political side? IIRC some of his political points haven't aged very well. It's been years since I've read Leviathan, but I remember seeing it contradict a lot of anthropology/psychology/modern PolSci. And that was just the basics of those fields I'd read in high school !
EDIT: And later on I did some social sciences as part of an urban planning degree, and saw more stuff that contradicted Hobbes. Not about about how a state functioned or should function, but also about how it formed and evolved.
And obviously every piece of anarchist theory I've dipped my toes in contradicts him, but that's a given ;)
 
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TalonofAnathrax said:
I also first learned about Hobbes in philosophy class. Until the latest reforms he was a mandatory part of the curriculum for most French high-school students.

Why would you learn about him from the political side? IIRC some of his political points haven't aged very well. It's been years since I've read Leviathan, but I remember seeing it contradict a lot of anthropology/psychology/modern PolSci. And that was just the basics of those fields I'd read in high school !
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Being fair to Hobbs there is something to learning this history of political philosophy on its own merits. I mean you would not want to treat someone on the basis of Sigmund Freud, but all of that is valuable in understanding the field. All the more correct theories could not have arisen without the previous layer and even a denial is in a certain way building on the thing it denies.
 
DragonParadox said:
Being fair to Hobbs there is something to learning this history of political philosophy on its own merits. I mean you would not want to treat someone on the basis of Sigmund Freud, but all of that is valuable in understanding the field. All the more correct theories could not have arisen without the previous layer and even a denial is in a certain way building on the thing it denies.
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That does make a lot of sense.

On the other hand, this doesn't:
Azel said:
I mean, we can always culminate this with a bombastic speech about how they should kneel before the holy trinity of Imperator, Imperium and Leviathan.
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In-universe neither the Trinity nor the famous book Leviathan are a thing.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
I also first learned about Hobbes in philosophy class. Until the latest reforms he was a mandatory part of the curriculum for most French high-school students.

Why would you learn about him from the political side? IIRC some of his political points haven't aged very well. It's been years since I've read Leviathan, but I remember seeing it contradict a lot of anthropology/psychology/modern PolSci. And that was just the basics of those fields I'd read in high school !
EDIT: And later on I did some social sciences as part of an urban planning degree, and saw more stuff that contradicted Hobbes. Not about about how a state functioned or should function, but also about how it formed and evolved.
And obviously every piece of anarchist theory I've dipped my toes in contradicts him, but that's a given ;)
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Don't consider a reference an endorsement. I mainly know Hobbes from a historical perspective and am perfectly aware of the weakness of his work. Which comes at little surprise, since the main goal was to legitimize absolute monarchy and his worldviews were... let's call them... conservative...
TalonofAnathrax said:
That does make a lot of sense.

On the other hand, this doesn't:

In-universe neither the Trinity nor the famous book Leviathan are a thing.
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Joke for reader consumption.

Though I would want to call it Project Leviathan IC anyway, justified as a reference to the mythical beasts around Ibben.
 
Could we call on people who have died and ask them what happened after their death? Do souls who don't go to an evil or good plane go to the negative energy plane for example? Or do they just stay in the ethereal plane?
 
Blackgutter said:
Could we call on people who have died and ask them what happened after their death? Do souls who don't go to an evil or good plane go to the negative energy plane for example? Or do they just stay in the ethereal plane?
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Are you talking about resurrected people? If you are, the magic makes it so that they don't remember any of their time in the afterlife.
 
For that we would need a petitioner or someone who still remembers their time as a petitioner, which rules out nearly all Outsiders with a scant few exceptions like Elaheh.
 
Blackgutter said:
Could we call on people who have died and ask them what happened after their death? Do souls who don't go to an evil or good plane go to the negative energy plane for example? Or do they just stay in the ethereal plane?
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Not easily, nor in a manner that would be helpful here. Speak with Soul require you to cast the spell at the target's place of death. We also don't want to randomly dial up some soul that is possibly mid-torment or fruitlessly fleeing from an Astral Leviathan. No need to pry open another can of worms.
 
Blackgutter said:
Like a person who has recently died and returned as a sientient ghost for example. Unless they lose memory of who they are when they were alive of course.
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That won't work, either. Ghosts, by defintion, do not journey to the afterlife at all, as their souls are anchored to the Material Planes in one manner or another.
 
So how is the reveal going so far? Too fast? Too slow?I am kind of testing the waters for how the Curia might work. Would it help to make a bit of a spacial representation of the place so you guys have a sense of who sets where?
 
DragonParadox said:
So how is the reveal going so far? Too fast? Too slow?I am kind of testing the waters for how the Curia might work. Would it help to make a bit of a spacial representation of the place so you guys have a sense of who sets where?
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Might be worth going a bit more slowly. There's a lot to cover and we need to make sure everyone walks out of here sane, loyal, and not about to fall into infighting.

Mace's dig at the poor Minister of Education was understandable, but we're definitely addressing that.
 
Duesal said:
Might be worth going a bit more slowly. There's a lot to cover and we need to make sure everyone walks out of here sane, loyal, and not about to fall into infighting.

Mace's dig at the poor Minister of Education was understandable, but we're definitely addressing that.
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Sure, it is also worth keeping in mind that not everyone who has issues is going to have them explosively. There are a lot of people in the Curia right now who are simply stewing and not able or willing to articulate what their issues are.
 
DragonParadox said:
Sure, it is also worth keeping in mind that not everyone who has issues is going to have them explosively. There are a lot of people in the Curia right now who are simply stewing and not able or willing to articulate what their issues are.
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That's exactly what I'm worried about. This is not the sort of thing the highest powers in the Imperium should be left to their own devices for. We need to get everyone's fears out in the open so they can all be addressed.
 
DragonParadox said:
Sure, it is also worth keeping in mind that not everyone who has issues is going to have them explosively. There are a lot of people in the Curia right now who are simply stewing and not able or willing to articulate what their issues are.
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Of the those in the Curia that were not in the know before the announcement, how many are we capable of divining afterwards to see if they are still mentally sound or require a mind healer or anything to that effect? Cause if we can, I would recommend we immediately do so. Letting high-level members of our polity stew in despair and madness is a terrible idea with far reaching consequences.
 
Trevor23 said:
Of the those in the Curia that were not in the know before the announcement, how many are we capable of divining afterwards to see if they are still mentally sound or require a mind healer or anything to that effect? Cause if we can, I would recommend we immediately do so. Letting high-level members of our polity stew in despair and madness is a terrible idea with far reaching consequences.
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You can divine anyone you lay eyes on and more to the point so can the House of Mirrors. Of course these are not enemies of the state and it might be a bit of a minor scandal if they discover you did so.
 
DragonParadox said:
You can divine anyone you lay eyes on and more to the point so can the House of Mirrors. Of course these are not enemies of the state and it might be a bit of a minor scandal if they discover you did so.
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I see, still though, I would take I minor scandal over a complete mental breakdown of member of the Curia. It would be weakness easily exploited by our enemies and may lead to them accidentally revealing the knowledge we just shared with them to the wrong person which could then spill over to the rest of the population which then cause the mass hysteria which we want to avoid. The scandal that would follow if we did the divinations would be paltry in comparison to what might happen and the more hardened and pragmatic of the Curia may even approve of our course of action which makes the affects of the possible scandal even less.
 
DragonParadox said:
So how is the reveal going so far? Too fast? Too slow?I am kind of testing the waters for how the Curia might work. Would it help to make a bit of a spacial representation of the place so you guys have a sense of who sets where?
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Maybe a bit too quick in what is happening, but too slow in that not everyone is interested in the in between votes.

I wouldn't mind more interlude POVs from other folks giving different perspectives on the proceedings in the coming days without having too many decision points. There is going to be a lot happening here that isn't really in Viserys' purview since there just aren't enough hours in the day or enough of him to go around, a lot of interactions that are important to the development of the Curia and Imperial politics in general.
 
Goldfish said:
Maybe a bit too quick in what is happening, but too slow in that not everyone is interested in the in between votes.

I wouldn't mind more interlude POVs from other folks giving different perspectives on the proceedings in the coming days without having too many decision points. There is going to be a lot happening here that isn't really in Viserys' purview since there just aren't enough hours in the day or enough of him to go around, a lot of interactions that are important to the development of the Curia and Imperial politics in general.
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Update in beta. Hopefully this one will have a more interesting vote.
 
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