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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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DragonParadox said:
Of Paths Untrod ​

Eight Day of the Fifth Month 294 AC

Well, if nothing else the story of questions, rumor, and suspicion that was set upon your naming of one of the Baatezu to high ministerial office should make it easier for the rest of the ministers to sneak by under cover of rain and thunder, as it were, you muse ruefully as Waymar mentions the meeting with his father the next day. Unlike the matter of taxes, the Ministry to Public Works raises no far reaching concerns and is unlikely to inflame passions, though the wise lord would do well to pay heed just the same. Lands crossed by wide roads are all the richer and ones linked by bridges all the safer.

Thus, over steaming chocolate that Dany presses into your hand and some sort of new confection the palace kitchens had designed more for the chef's amusement you would assume than for your consumption, you ponder again three names and three dossiers for the post of chief architect of the realm, or well, you suppose chief architect herder of the realm, which is a task both less fulfilling to the soul and more necessary to the common good.

The first of these is a name you had heard before, now with a face put to it; Shad Ibm Mal, an azer, his beard and hair afire with cherry red flame and smoke ever shrouding him. His voice rumbles like thunder in the depths of the earth and his hand is as fine upon the chisel as it is the pen. Skilled he is and used to working with sorcery, though not so skilled to the ways and customs of men, and like a foreigner he would need a translator for some weeks and months yet, that or magic to smooth away the creases in his path.

Of course, he is not alone in such. Zeriah of Sallosh, one of the scholars who bears the Silver Stars, is well used to building on the water, for she has of old built much across the face of the Silver Lake and well shall she be recalled choosing one of the ancient dead to stand in your councils. True, she is not without fault, deeply marked by the fact that she woke in an empty tomb, and one with little love of those who glory the Freehold, though perhaps that is not as much trouble as it once would have been. Even Zherys does not count the Freehold as worthy of emulating after what he had learned of their rule and the manner of their Doom.

Last and by far the strangest of those who came forward is Nineteen of Three Hundred, a Bulabar name for they are the ones who account themselves by number of their hatching, but not quite a bulabar himself, rather than the gleaming blue shell of the tinker fey he has a carapace of polished basalt, to match the substance of imperial roads and his eyes shine like mage lanterns winking in the night's breeze, a fey of the Imperirum not merely by choice and by oath, but by the hour and manner of his birth, begotten of pech and bulabar. He wishes to hold sway over the domain of his kindred and other great works, and by them he might be made mighty indeed to the aid of all the realm, but not without cost. One of great thirst he would be, to be handed dominion over water, as they say in the lands east of Mantarys.

[] Shad Ibm Mal
+Extraplanar Connections
+Master Builder (Skilled at infrastructure projects)
+Finance Expert (Skilled in the gathering of gold)
-Taxman (Being known for parting people from their money makes few friends)
-Stranger in a strange land (Is not yet immersed in the politics and culture of his new land)

[] Zeriah of Sallosh
+Artificer (Skilled in using constructs to create infrastructure)
+Amphibious builder (Responsible for much of the infrastructure on the Silver Lake)
+Kinship with the Dead (Naming a Salloshi so high in your councils will be well seen by the other sons and daughters of Sarnor)
-Miser (Having woken in a plundered tomb, Zeriah has sworn to never be reduced to such paucity again and her means of ensuring that have earned her few friends)
-The Ill-Favored (Recalls the excesses of the Freehold all too well and looks in askance at those who glory it)

[] Nineteen of Three Hundred
+Lore of Stone and Wheels (Intrinsic knowledge and skill at improving Imperial building practices)
++Deep Tales (Could gain Mythic ranks from the very fact of raising infrastructure)
-Wandering Thoughts (Has little care for the politics of the realm when they do not relate directly to his area of expertise)
-Grand Dreams (May be inclined to overspend on impressive projects)

OOC: And with this we are done with the voted for ministries. Not yet edited.
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Here's an edited version of the chapter, DP.
 
[X] Shad Ibm Mal

He's got everything we need for this position, I'd say.
 
Holy crap, y'all. Is this the first official Imperial Fey? @DragonParadox?

That is really cool, DP. I love how his form was partially shaped by our realm.

Would he be amenable to a junior position if he isn't selected as Minister? He could still benefit greatly from the realm's growth, and it from his input, without necessarily being Minister, IMO.

[X] Shad Ibm Mal
 
Ouch. I was hoping for a human leader, preferably someone good at diplomacy and politics. Large infrastruture projects aren't just about building a thing, they're also about creating a massive impact on the area through the construction itself (destroying some places, revitalizing others, giving some groups/factions sudden wealth & spatial advantages, etc). And of course proper coordination with others institutions and leadership (both local & Imperial) are absolutely key at every step of the way for this sort of project. This is why I think that Shad Ibm Mal is a terrible choice here.
I wrote a Masters' thesis about how this can go wrong IRL, and there was a lot to say :D A common problem was poor spatial & temporal coordination between the big project itself and the smaller "side-projects" the municipality or local private stakeholders implement to exploit the opportunity (usually for economic & urban design goals). These different stakeholders work on different timescales, with different priorities and skillsets, and with different resources. Good coordination and dialogue makes everything into more than the sum of its parts.
It's not about using the project to spur short-term growth and temporarily fight unemployment or whatever. It's about effectively exploiting the opportunity that it represents for economic, demographic and urban changes. Timing is key, intersectorial coordination/cooperation is key, etc. People skills and management skills are honestly just as important as actual engineering & logistical skills. Otherwise you end up with the kind of disaster that developing countries get so often IRL, where a project using skilled engineers gets completed but proves less impactful than expected. Or with "transit-oriented development" in developed countries which fails to really be transformative despite the transit having been created.
 
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TalonofAnathrax said:
Ouch. I was hoping for a human leader, preferably someone good at diplomacy and politics. Large infrastruture projects aren't just about building a thing, they're also about creating a massive impact on the area through the construction itself (destroying some places, revitalizing others, giving some groups/factions sudden wealth & spatial advantages, etc). And of course proper coordination with others institutions and leadership (both local & Imperial) are absolutely key at every step of the way for this sort of project. This is why I think that Shad Ibm Mal is a terrible choice here.
I wrote a Masters' thesis about how this can go wrong IRL, and there was a lot to say :D
It's not about using the project to spur short-term growth and temporarily fight unemployment or whatever. It's about effectively exploiting the opportunity that it represents for economic, demographic and urban changes. Timing is key, intersectorial coordination/cooperation is key, etc. People skills and management skills are honestly just as important as actual engineering & logistical skills. Otherwise you end up with the kind of disaster that developing countries get so often IRL, where a project using skilled engineers gets completed but proves less impactful than expected.

[X] Nineteen of Three Hundred
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Well now that you've brought it up, this is obviously going to become an issue. So... congrats? :V

[X] Nineteen of Three Hundred
 
Goldfish said:
Holy crap, y'all. Is this the first official Imperial Fey? @DragonParadox?

That is really cool, DP. I love how his form was partially shaped by our realm.

Would he be amenable to a junior position if he isn't selected as Minister? He could still benefit greatly from the realm's growth, and it from his input, without necessarily being Minister, IMO.

[X] Shad Ibm Mal
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He is yes and he would indeed take a junior position, though it should be noted that he would not get a mythic rank for that

TalonofAnathrax said:
Ouch. I was hoping for a human leader, preferably someone good at diplomacy and politics. Large infrastruture projects aren't just about building a thing, they're also about creating a massive impact on the area through the construction itself (destroying some places, revitalizing others, giving some groups/factions sudden wealth & spatial advantages, etc). And of course proper coordination with others institutions and leadership (both local & Imperial) are absolutely key at every step of the way for this sort of project. This is why I think that Shad Ibm Mal is a terrible choice here.
I wrote a Masters' thesis about how this can go wrong IRL, and there was a lot to say :D A common problem was poor spatial & temporal coordination between the big project itself and the smaller "side-projects" the municipality or local private stakeholders implement to exploit the opportunity (usually for economic & urban design goals). These different stakeholders work on different timescales, with different priorities and skillsets, and with different resources. Good coordination and dialogue makes everything into more than the sum of its parts.
It's not about using the project to spur short-term growth and temporarily fight unemployment or whatever. It's about effectively exploiting the opportunity that it represents for economic, demographic and urban changes. Timing is key, intersectorial coordination/cooperation is key, etc. People skills and management skills are honestly just as important as actual engineering & logistical skills. Otherwise you end up with the kind of disaster that developing countries get so often IRL, where a project using skilled engineers gets completed but proves less impactful than expected. Or with "transit-oriented development" in developed countries which fails to really be transformative despite the transit having been created.

[X] Nineteen of Three Hundred
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There aren't really a lot of humans with the skill to organize something like this and those few there are prefer to work as architects as opposed to being 'kicked upstairs' and do organization.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Ouch. I was hoping for a human leader, preferably someone good at diplomacy and politics. Large infrastruture projects aren't just about building a thing, they're also about creating a massive impact on the area through the construction itself (destroying some places, revitalizing others, giving some groups/factions sudden wealth & spatial advantages, etc). And of course proper coordination with others institutions and leadership (both local & Imperial) are absolutely key at every step of the way for this sort of project. This is why I think that Shad Ibm Mal is a terrible choice here.
I wrote a Masters' thesis about how this can go wrong IRL, and there was a lot to say :D A common problem was poor spatial & temporal coordination between the big project itself and the smaller "side-projects" the municipality or local private stakeholders implement to exploit the opportunity (usually for economic & urban design goals). These different stakeholders work on different timescales, with different priorities and skillsets, and with different resources. Good coordination and dialogue makes everything into more than the sum of its parts.
It's not about using the project to spur short-term growth and temporarily fight unemployment or whatever. It's about effectively exploiting the opportunity that it represents for economic, demographic and urban changes. Timing is key, intersectorial coordination/cooperation is key, etc. People skills and management skills are honestly just as important as actual engineering & logistical skills. Otherwise you end up with the kind of disaster that developing countries get so often IRL, where a project using skilled engineers gets completed but proves less impactful than expected. Or with "transit-oriented development" in developed countries which fails to really be transformative despite the transit having been created.

[X] Nineteen of Three Hundred
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Wait. You are worried about a lack of coordination between different projects so you want the flighty Fey instead?
 
DragonParadox said:
He is yes and he would indeed take a junior position, though it should be noted that he would not get a mythic rank for that
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Dang, that complicates my choice...

Mythic Imperial Fey, here we come! Fingers crossed they somehow become Lawful rather than Chaotic.

[X] Nineteen of Three Hundred
 
Crake said:
Wait, what am I thinking. This is a completely valid point!

It's not an ASWAH page until Fey prejudices have been opined. :V

[X] Azel
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He is specifically noted to care little for politics outside of his specific area of expertise, so the arguments brought by @TalonofAnathrax speak against, not for him. Shad has cultural issues, true, but those are much easier to fix than a genuine disinterest in the tertiary effects of your work.

I'd rather keep the Fey for special projects, where the wider impact is more limited. Not as if we don't have plenty that fit the bill.
 
Crake said:
Well now that you've brought it up, this is obviously going to become an issue. So... congrats? :V

[X] Nineteen of Three Hundred
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I mean it's not a huge issue. Infrastructure brings added value, and building good infrastructure in a place that previously had very poor infrastructure will basically always have positive consequences. It's just that you can get a lot more for your money if you have good local management going.
A good example is opening a new train line a year before the surrounding station area redevelopment is done. This will reduce ridership, reduce economic growth, and have lasting consequences for the PR of the area + of everyone involved. And this could be avoided by warning everyone earlier, by smoothing out practical issues such as skilled manpower shortages or land conflicts (the big project tends to cause them for the local "adaptation" projects), and by reducing uncertainty about what the final infrastructure would look like in terms of space occupied, amenities and needs, details of the expected use of the infrastructure, etc. This can all be done with good coordination and management on a local level.
It's the sort of thing I'd expect a competent local Lord to get involved in (either directly or through his son/trusted retainer) if one of our canal projects passes through his lands, for example. But a project head who is able to get less on-the-ball Lords to do this? A project head who can participate in this sort of stuff easily and effectively?
That sounds good for the project.

Azel said:
Wait. You are worried about a lack of coordination between different projects so you want the flighty Fey instead?
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Honestly all three look terrible to me. They all have some personal technical skill and they'll have competent underlings and magical buffs, so I'm not too worried about their personal engineering skills. We're hiring a project manager here, and all three seem deeply flawed:
  • Shad Ibm Mal is a complete foreigner, doesn't speak the language, and is already unpopular. He's also used to extraplanar stuff, where society is organized very differently and where the environment is a lot more hostile.
  • Zeriah of Sallosh is a miser, and that + her dislike of "excess" might lead to under-investment in our projects. That's bad. We're not short of money, and it's generally better to built it right the first time than to retrofit it in ten years because you need more capacity. She's also unpopular.
  • The Fey is flighty and doesn't care much for politics, but he does care about getting the project done so I don't expect him to ignore the management aspects. Sure he'll focus on technical stuff and the way he goes about getting local management running might cause keruffles, but at the very least he know how human society functions and won't be making user-assumptions based on completely different extraplanar realms.
Honestly I could be convinced to vote for Shad Ibm Mal. He's better than Zeriah. But I'm guessing that complete ignorance of the issues is more of a problem than not caring about them that much.
Shad will notice the problems & preconceptions by bumbling into them, hopefully in planning meetings but possibly during execution (or maybe even ten years later once things unfold in inconvenient ways). The Fey won't have that problem - at worst he'll over-delegate those aspects or disrupt existing power structures.
 
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TalonofAnathrax said:
Honestly all three look terrible to me. They all have some personal technical skill and they'll have competent underlings and magical buffs, so I'm not too worried about their personal engineering skills. We're hiring a project manager here, and all three seem deeply flawed:
  • Shad Ibm Mal is a complete foreigner, doesn't speak the language, and is already unpopular. He's also used to extraplanar stuff, where society is organized very differently and where the environment is a lot more hostile.
  • Zeriah of Sallosh is a miser, and that + her dislike of "excess" might lead to under-investment in our projects. That's bad. We're not short of money, and it's generally better to built it right the first time than to retrofit it in ten years because you need more capacity. She's also unpopular.
  • The Fey is flighty and doesn't care much for politics, but he does care about getting the project done so I don't expect him to ignore the management aspects. Sure he'll focus on technical stuff and the way he goes about getting local management running might cause keruffles, but at the very least he know how human society functions and won't be making user-assumptions based on completely different extraplanar realms.
Honestly I could be convinced to vote for Shad Ibm Mal. He's better than Zeriah. But I'm guessing that complete ignorance of the issues is more of a problem than not caring about them that much.
Shad will notice the problems & preconceptions by bumbling into them, hopefully in planning meetings but possible on the ground. The Fey won't have that problem - at worst he'll over-delegate those aspects or disrupt existing power structures.
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Shads issues are noted be of the political and cultural sort, not the engineering aspects. It's not as if there are not plenty of human and humanoid beings in the PoF, so I don't see why you assume that he will be unaware of the basic details of how infrastructure is supposed to work on Planetos. Heck, by all measures, the PoF is the closest we have in the Inner Planes, since it is similarly divided in solid continents and islands divided by shippable liquid.
 
Azel said:
Shads issues are noted be of the political and cultural sort, not the engineering aspects. It's not as if there are not plenty of human and humanoid beings in the PoF, so I don't see why you assume that he will be unaware of the basic details of how infrastructure is supposed to work on Planetos. Heck, by all measures, the PoF is the closest we have in the Inner Planes, since it is similarly divided in solid continents and islands divided by shippable liquid.
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I'm mostly concerned about the material needs of the users being different when the users are Westerosi peasants living in a feudal system focused on decentralized agriculture with limited transport capabilities.

I remember reading about a development project that went poorly because Western engineers poorly anticipated the problems of building a passenger train in some African country (might have been Nigeria?), both in terms of local informal power structures, local climate, and the needs of the local users who don't use a train the same way that westerners do. The train worked, but was both more expensive and less effective than expected.

Obviously this all relies on the Fey knowing he has to do this management stuff for the infrastructure to best function and simply not liking it. If he doesn't know he has to do it and focuses entirely on building a fancy bridge (thinking like an engineer vs like a project manager) then he's even worse than Shad. But I'm guessing he'll know about this, and he'll simply over-delegate and cause local political transformations.
 
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[X] Nineteen of Three Hundred

[X] Shad Ibm Mal
 
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TalonofAnathrax said:
I'm mostly concerned about the material needs of the users being different when the users are Westerosi peasants living in a feudal system focused on decentralized agriculture with limited transport capabilities.

I remember reading about a development project that went poorly because Western engineers poorly anticipated the problems of building a passenger train in some African country (might have been Nigeria?), both in terms of local informal power structures, local climate, and the needs of the local users who don't use a train the same way that westerners do. The train worked, but was both more expensive and less effective than expected.

Obviously this all relies on the Fey knowing he has to do this management stuff for the infrastructure to best function and simply not liking it. If he doesn't know he has to do it and focuses entirely on building a fancy bridge (thinking like an engineer vs like a project manager) then he's even worse than Shad. But I'm guessing he'll know about this, and he'll simply over-delegate and cause local political transformations.
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Well, that's the big question then.

@DragonParadox, will the Fey be inclined to neglect the managerial aspects of his job, in particular the interactions with the locals?
 
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