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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Crake said:
DP declared that if a human has ready access to high level healing magic (and Aemon does), they basically get to act as if the maximum possible amounts on their lifespan roll was resulted.

So he's guaranteed to live to 120, at least, if we don't convince him to reincarnate well before then.

Incidentally, Aemon is currently 96 years old. So this won't be a concern for another 23~ years.

Considering the Long Night 2: Electric Boogaloo should be well over by then, I imagine we would have ground him down already.

Or we'll all be too dead to worry about anyone dying in a sickbed.
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I am fairly sure we'll be able to convince him to reincarnate, all things considered.
 
Duesal said:
The reincarnate line of spells doesn't bypass dying of old age.
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Huh, I looked at the pathfinder version which explicitly states the opposite. And there are also stronger versions that have fewer limitations.

It reverses all current aging, yeah. We've been making use of the fact. But if a person straight up dies of old age, that's it. That's part of the reason we're concerned about Maester Aemon.
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This seems like a really weird ruling to me, as almost no one actually dies of old age. You die of something that old age makes you vulnerable too. So it really only apply to people who are hit with a time curse or the like.

As for the cost from Yss, I don't recall how much it costs. I'd have to go back and look. I think it's supposed to be that the sacrifice matches the CR of the person you're trying to slam with the aging curse. So for Lanna that'd be, what, CR 18 roughly?
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Lanna would be about cr18, but we might have to use the curse twice to exceed aging limits. Isnt it 1d4 age categories? I thought it was a fixed cost to use the curse, but that might just be his poison.
 
Archibald said:
Huh, I looked at the pathfinder version which explicitly states the opposite. And there are also stronger versions that have fewer limitations.
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In this Quest we used the 3.5 variant rather than Pathfinder if the Spells or Magical Effects are similar (barring some cases, but those are exceptions not the rule).

Such as Pathfinder's grappling (understandable, the first time I read on the rule I got weird massive headaches). I... don't believe that we used Pathfinder's grappling to be honest.
 
Archibald said:
Huh, I looked at the pathfinder version which explicitly states the opposite. And there are also stronger versions that have fewer limitations.
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In most cases we go with 3.5 over Pathfinder unless DP explicitly states otherwise. Generally we can figure out a Pathfinder version, it just requires IC research.
Archibald said:
This seems like a really weird ruling to me, as almost no one actually dies of old age. You die of something that old age makes you vulnerable too. So it really only apply to people who are hit with a time curse or the like.
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It is admittedly flimsy, but that's the way it's structured. A quick rule of thumb I guess would be if someone dies and the first thing that comes to mind is "Well he was super old" we can assume they died of old age, unless they had some obvious disease like cancer or something. At a certain point even magical healing won't do much for you because your body just stops getting better, with its new normal being more and more worn down. Otherwise regular exposure to Panacea and Heal would have been a recognized path to immortality in D&D.
Archibald said:
Lanna would be about cr18, but we might have to use the curse twice to exceed aging limits. Isnt it 1d4 age categories? I thought it was a fixed cost to use the curse, but that might just be his poison.
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We did have this discussion years back. Using the staff we can inflict one age category of age, and then we can roll the dice with Yss (you are correct that it's 1d4 age categories). If we don't get the desired result we can try again.

That being said I am content with simply killing her. If she comes back as a resurrected threat at that point she's probably a sacrifice target.
 
Duesal said:
At a certain point even magical healing won't do much for you because your body just stops getting better, with its new normal being more and more worn down. Otherwise regular exposure to Panacea and Heal would have been a recognized path to immortality in D&D.
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Well, we have ONE other path.

Cyclic Reincarnation – d20PFSRD

www.d20pfsrd.com www.d20pfsrd.com

If your main cause of death is that your original body is constantly being worn down by Fate and Natural effects, transfer your Soul into a new body. That'll get rid of the problem.
 
Jack vile Ripper said:
Well, we have ONE other path.

Cyclic Reincarnation – d20PFSRD

www.d20pfsrd.com www.d20pfsrd.com

If your main cause of death is that your original body is constantly being worn down by Fate and Natural effects, transfer your Soul into a new body. That'll get rid of the problem.
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Cyclic Reincarnation is such a useful spell.

That was our fallback plan for immortality for the Companions, except that Mythic Longevity is an option. Not to mention like half of them aren't even human. Viserys is a Dragon, Dany is a Native Outsider, Lya is Lya, Rina is Fey, and Xor is an aberration. Garin is a Damphir, and while they're still mortal their lifespan is in centuries. I'm not sure what Maelor's tiefling lifespan is. I'm guessing the same as a normal human?
 
Duesal said:
Cyclic Reincarnation is such a useful spell.

That was our fallback plan for immortality for the Companions, except that Mythic Longevity is an option. Not to mention like half of them aren't even human. Viserys is a Dragon, Dany is a Native Outsider, Lya is Lya, Rina is Fey, and Xor is an aberration. Garin is a Damphir, and while they're still mortal their lifespan is in centuries. I'm not sure what Maelor's tiefling lifespan is. I'm guessing the same as a normal human?
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Richard, on the other hand, will probably stab at least one God of Death by Old Age in the face. And then present it to Viserys to be sacrificed to the Imperial Deity.
 
Azel said:
Since @Artemis1992, was specifically asking, here is what I've been at. I added a rudimentary province system to my simulation so that we get a better sense of unit location. At the same time, I gave units the ability to do long-range strikes (provided they have the necessary capabilities) so that they can skirmish with things outside their own location.

Had to rewrite a lot of battle-code for that, since now everything needed to respect location on the worldmap and I needed to be careful to not introduce any circular dependencies that would blow up later.

Some stuff is still missing from this step. I have no actual movement from province to province and I need to rewrite the retreat logic. I'm also still thinking about the exact mechanics to escalate skirmishes into full battles, as the long-range attacks now mean that the unit performing the strikes should be more careful about it. So far, it was assumed that the attacker always wanted a battle (why else would you have forces in a province where there are enemies?) but this does not make sense when doing terror attacks. I mean, a Dauntless-class vessel wouldn't mind to throw down with a fiendish host or two, but said fiends might not want to pick fights while heavily outnumbered when they are doing deep-strikes with Greater Teleport.

For now, here is a report for what it looks like when a bunch of Devils can suddenly exploit their SLAs for tactical strikes.
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Wow I have to say the narrative almost writes itself when you have those reports more fleshed out I could see this being a short paragraph or a major interlude depending on the PoV.
 
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Duesal said:
Otherwise regular exposure to Panacea and Heal would have been a recognized path to immortality in D&D.
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The explanation for mechanical goofiness is clearly already in the plain text of D&D canon.

The flow of souls into the afterlife is of paramount importance to pretty much everyone. Not just 'cause souls = resources, though that's the obvious thing that draws the eye, but that the merest act of people dying and properly ending up in an appropriate afterlife A) Keeps Gods of death properly managing cycles of life and death and keeping undead from overrunning everyone from the various mishaps that plague death worlds like Planetos or Faerun or Golarion.

And B) if souls aren't leaving the world properly, that's a Conceptual linkage that can be exploited by the Void.

Like, the afterlife being as messed up as this is, I'm pretty sure the Faceless only exist because the normal mechanisms which took care of that are basically extremely borked, so they need mortal agents to clean up the cases of undead concentrations due to the fact that even if they spent 24/7 killing, most souls wouldn't end up shepherded along by deities capable of doing more than the upkeep on their dilapidated divine realms. They just get sent wandering, eaten, or enslaved.

The universe is like a dying fat man with his arteries clogged.
 
Zioneer said:
What does that make Viserys and his plans to restore some semblance of an afterlife, then?
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A stopgap, at best, since it only directly benefits the people living in the Imperium.

Granted, if that definition expands due to annexation, conquest, etc. Then that means more people benefit.

A desirable end-state would be to normalize the flow on one world, then see if that can be extended elsewhere via By Other Means.
 
Crake said:
A stopgap, at best, since it only directly benefits the people living in the Imperium.

Granted, if that definition expands due to annexation, conquest, etc. Then that means more people benefit.

A desirable end-state would be to normalize the flow on one world, then see if that can be extended elsewhere via By Other Means.
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It would/will be interesting to see if when one of the believers in our Imperial Deity/Truth dies on another plane, if their soul can still get to the deity without impediment.
 
Zioneer said:
It would/will be interesting to see if when one of the believers in our Imperial Deity/Truth dies on another plane, if their soul can still get to the deity without impediment.
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Probably not without impediment.

Within the Imperium it would be vastly safer as that's Viserys' claimed territory, so your soul gets a straight shot to the Imperial Afterlife and from there you get escorted to the afterlife of whatever Imperial Deity you worship. But outside of the Imperium you'd have to wait for an Imperial Outsider to come find you and escort you safely to the Imperial Afterlife.
 
I don't recognize you people. Since when do you care about innocence? We are served by devils and Dothraki, demons and Ironborn, mad scientists and Boltons. Two simple questions need to be answered about Lanna and her husband:
Will they be useful?
And will they be loyal?
 
@Azel
Most of that looked good, just something I'm not sure is working as intended:
The Greater Devil Host deals extremly little damage to the Shambling Undead (most of it Organisation which quickly heals), but they do loose decent amounts of readyness in those skirmishes, not much, but compared to their low readiness not little either.

Is it meant to be that way, that skirmishing the lesser Dead is an utterly futile and even somewhat self-destructive excercise, even for a far superior army?
 
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Sapphon said:
I don't recognize you people. Since when do you care about innocence? We are served by devils and Dothraki, demons and Ironborn, mad scientists and Boltons. Two simple questions need to be answered about Lanna and her husband:
Will they be useful?
And will they be loyal?
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The loyalty is the main issue. We've done so much damage to everything she's built and cares about that she'd have to be a saint to forgive Viserys. And when it comes to an archmage there can't be any room for doubt. It has to be utter certainty that they'll stay on the straight and narrow or they have to die. There's just too much damage they're capable of otherwise.
 
Duesal said:
The loyalty is the main issue. We've done so much damage to everything she's built and cares about that she'd have to be a saint to forgive Viserys. And when it comes to an archmage there can't be any room for doubt. It has to be utter certainty that they'll stay on the straight and narrow or they have to die. There's just too much damage they're capable of otherwise.
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Let's just not judge her before the book is read.

I think it's just as likely that she cares more about her husband, children and a chance to make a new life (with a shitload more advantages than she had in her old one) than about vengance for House Lannister, but it's really not worth making arguments we had for literal years now again and again, when actual answers will come in the aftermath of this conquest, within weeks-IRL and days IC.
 
Duesal said:
The loyalty is the main issue. We've done so much damage to everything she's built and cares about that she'd have to be a saint to forgive Viserys. And when it comes to an archmage there can't be any room for doubt. It has to be utter certainty that they'll stay on the straight and narrow or they have to die. There's just too much damage they're capable of otherwise.
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This is an approach that I understand. It's just that all these pages of thread discussing the "good" or "bad" Lanna Lannister cause me complete confusion.
As for loyalty, I personally think she will be loyal to us because of her children, not because we will threaten them. She can either be absolutely devoted to us, or her children will grow up in an orphanage without parents. We have wonderful shelters, but it's still better with parents.
However, without complete information, all this is just speculation.
It just annoys me to be told to kill her without trying to figure it out.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Let's just not judge her before the book is read.

I think it's just as likely that she cares more about her husband, children and a chance to make a new life (with a shitload more advantages than she had in her old one) than about vengance for House Lannister, but it's really not worth making arguments we had for literal years now again and again, when actual answers will come in the aftermath of this conquest, within weeks-IRL and days IC.
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Alternatively the husband could be just as likely to not be able to get over the depth of their loss. @BronzeTongue hit the head on the nail. Gerion and Lanna are losing everything. Friends, family, their wealth and status, the organization they've built, everything. After this their support structure is gone because of us. Expecting them to be okay with just each other and their children with no resentment towards us is a huge ask.
Sapphon said:
This is an approach that I understand. It's just that all these pages of thread discussing the "good" or "bad" Lanna Lannister cause me complete confusion.
As for loyalty, I personally think she will be loyal to us because of her children, not because we will threaten them. She can either be absolutely devoted to us, or her children will grow up in an orphanage without parents. We have wonderful shelters, but it's still better with parents.
However, without complete information, all this is just speculation.
It just annoys me to be told to kill her without trying to figure it out.
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The "good" and "bad" is being taken out of context here. Those are just reasons she'd be a shitty vassal, with the reason to kill her being that we can't trust her. As a proper PC she was the one in charge of telling Tywin that geasing not just some but all of his mages was a horrible idea, but that apparently went right on ahead. Instead she was the one applying the geases.

Her children are a touchy subject. Yes, they'd be cared for. They'd also have their inheritance and legacy stripped from them due to them being Lannisters, every bit of their heritage, their very names. That's anything but easy to swallow for a Westerosi noble. And at the end of the day, her mentality is far more of a Westerosi noble than of a PC, or else she would have run off a very long time ago and left Tywin to die.
 
Duesal said:
Alternatively the husband could be just as likely to not be able to get over the depth of their loss. @BronzeTongue hit the head on the nail. Gerion and Lanna are losing everything. Friends, family, their wealth and status, the organization they've built, everything. After this their support structure is gone because of us. Expecting them to be okay with just each other and their children with no resentment towards us is a huge ask.
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Let's take a look at that:
Friends and Family: Depends a lot on who they were friends with, we won't kill most of the Golden Shields, or of Lanna's branch of Lannisters. The only people we kill with absolute certainty are Tywin, Kevan and Cersei (two of which are already dead).
She will propably have lost some friends in this battle, but again that is something we have to wait for until we know more.

Wealth: Ridicolous. If she works for us as a level 18 Archmage she'll have all the wealth she could ever want at her disposal. One raid on the Efreeti and and her part of the spoils makes her richer than most nobles will ever be.

Status: Well, yes. She can rebuild it in her own name if we recruit her, but at least the family-name is gone. Still, she can earn her own respect and her children will suffer nothing from the loss, indeed they'll have many more and better options than they would have had as Lannisters (remember that her original fate was to be married of to some old Lord she barely knew, before she ran away with Gerion's expedition).

Organisation: Well, yes. But the people in it will mostly survive and join the Scholarium. And the functions of the GOlden Shields, of protecting Westeros will be taken over by us, more efficiently than ever.
 
Duesal said:
The "good" and "bad" is being taken out of context here. Those are just reasons she'd be a shitty vassal, with the reason to kill her being that we can't trust her. As a proper PC she was the one in charge of telling Tywin that geasing not just some but all of his mages was a horrible idea, but that apparently went right on ahead. Instead she was the one applying the geases.
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I don't think you understand me. I don't care that our devils fought against us before they came under our banner. I don't care how many people Qyburn tortured in the Boltons ' basements, in the name of science. And I don't care how much blood our vassals have on their hands. Lanna was doing a shitty job for Tyvey, so what. I don't even care if she's acting on her own or under duress. I care if it will be useful and loyal. However, I repeat, let's go back to Lanna when we know the answers to the questions.
 
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