A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

[egoo]

Tarra. Heaven would be opening another front we'd have to keep constant attention on.
A place we'd have no "fuck it, all's lost, leave it to burn"-option because Heart Trees destroyed or captured hurt Old Gods.
Regardless of where on HEaven we plop it down, it's an unnecessary war front to open - it gains us nothing. Literally nothing of worth at the moment.

Regardless of how many CR 20's we can throw there, we'd need infrastructure to defend the place. Ships. Praetorians. Cannon emplacements.
Can we justify it by some resource present, or by it being a strategic location of enough import (like Crucible that would allow us a lot of options if settled)?
No. No we cannot. Not while we still have the Planetosi (Illithids, Drow, 15th, Winter coming, Bloodstone Emperor) and the off-plane threats (Efreeti, Illithids, asshole Archdevils) to handle.

Finally, Heaven simply deserves a separate long-term expedition/diplomacy/intrigue arc.
We fucked up the last time we visited and we turned it into a quick loot-and-run errand.
We rushed and Hellven got less interesting. If we degrade it to "another Maelor's shop" it is fucked to the deep end.

 

[Goldfish]

Yeah, but as far as I remember, the reason we don't do it, is mainly because it would need multiple CR20 guardians at minimum, and we don't have any of those to spare.

The Jabberwocky is CR23, with the Fungal template it would be CR24, which mean that it plus a dozen or so CR15 Fungal creatures from the forge, would be able to guard a Heaven tree, or at least be a good enough try, that the old gods wouldn't blame us much if they failed.

We would have to pour a ridiculous amount of resources into there normally, my idea here was that we might be able to substitute that ridiculous amount of resources with a Fungal Jabberwock.

But is that the kind of thing we would face? It's not like it would be sent to Heaven's Shore, it would be plopped down in the middle of nowhere in Hellven, to guard a Heart tree from whatever is out there.

Although I guess you're right that a Jabberwock is probably not enough, but do you think the infect powerful prisoners with fungal spores, to make guardians for a Hellven tree, is a plan that could work?

Because I'm sure we will capture other CR20+ being at some point, and while creatures created by infecting them with Fungal spores, wouldn't be loyal to us the way those made in the Forges are, Fungal creatures natural instincts are to stay where they are, so if we saved the Jabberwocky for this, and added 1 or 2 other powerful Fungal creatures created this way, do you think we could create a force capable of protecting a Heaven tree?

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I just don't think it would be worth the investment or eventual repercussions, because it could start a war we aren't ready to fight. That's the kind of thing we can't do until Planetos is consolidated and we don't behave enemies at every approach.

 

[Duesal]

Tarra. Heaven would be opening another front we'd have to keep constant attention on.
A place we'd have no "fuck it, all's lost, leave it to burn"-option because Heart Trees destroyed or captured hurt Old Gods.
Regardless of where on HEaven we plop it down, it's an unnecessary war front to open - it gains us nothing. Literally nothing of worth at the moment.

Regardless of how many CR 20's we can throw there, we'd need infrastructure to defend the place. Ships. Praetorians. Cannon emplacements.
Can we justify it by some resource present, or by it being a strategic location of enough import (like Crucible that would allow us a lot of options if settled)?
No. No we cannot. Not while we still have the Planetosi (Illithids, Drow, 15th, Winter coming, Bloodstone Emperor) and the off-plane threats (Efreeti, Illithids, asshole Archdevils) to handle.

Finally, Heaven simply deserves a separate long-term expedition/diplomacy/intrigue arc.
We fucked up the last time we visited and we turned it into a quick loot-and-run errand.
We rushed and Hellven got less interesting. If we degrade it to "another Maelor's shop" it is fucked to the deep end.

Click to shrink...

Adding to this, infecting the Jabberwock with a Fungal template explicitly will not make it loyal. It's literally insane and basically feral for all intents and purposes. That's not the kind of asset we want anywhere near something as important as a Heart Tree. I can easily see it attacking something it really, really shouldn't be poking, and drawing down hellfire on it and the Heart Tree.

No. No thank you. No dumbass vassals for us.

Hell, this thing would be too insane to ever count as a vassal in the first place.

 

[BronzeTongue]

It's the nature of SoD spells, if i fudged the dice every time one of those got in the way of a scene I would be fighting the basic system o D&D combat.

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What's the CR of 3.5's combat system by the by?

 

[Crake]

What's the CR of 3.5's combat system by the by?

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Elaborate?

 

[ryuan]

I have the feeling that the golds are going to be as infuriately smug as Syrax with their prophecies and all that.

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What do you mean, exactly? The only one that more or less have that going is R'llor, and so far he's perfectly fine with fudging prophecies and stuff in our favor so long as we keep winning, and since our opponents are literally a Transcendental Void that devoured heaven, it's in our best interest to continue winning.

 

[BronzeTongue]

As an aside, the devils are still nominally bound by the laws of heaven right? They're just rule lawyering the shit out of things because they can't break the agreements but are in a position to exploit the shit out of reality.

We could have someone look into the laws for acquiring temples for new gods in heaven, and possibly engineer a situation where we could openly plant a godswood that Hell is obligated to protect once we're ready to move in that direction.

Elaborate?

Click to shrink...

I was making a shitty joke and didn't add an emoji. My bad.

 

[Duesal]

As an aside, the devils are still nominally bound by the laws of heaven right? They're just rule lawyering the shit out of things because they can't break the agreements but are in a position to exploit the shit out of reality.

We could have someone look into the laws for acquiring temples for new gods in heaven, and possibly engineer a situation where we could openly plant a godswood that Hell is obligated to protect once we're ready to move in that direction.

I was making a shitty joke and didn't add an emoji. My bad.

Click to shrink...

We could eventually work something out. But no matter what, making a Fungal-infected Jabberwock the tree's guardian is a terrible idea. The devils would rightfully exterminate it the second they realize it's there.

 

[ryuan]

What's the CR of 3.5's combat system by the by?

Click to shrink...

In D&D 3.5 the Challenge Rating means "a classic adventuring party consisting of fighter, cleric, wizard, and rogue of the appropriate level must spend 1/4 of their resources to overcome that treat."

So a CR of 20 means that LV 20 Adventuring Party can defeat it if they spend a quarter of their resources on hand, like potions, scrolls, charges from the staff, uses per day from the rods, spell slots, and hit points.

 

[BronzeTongue]

In D&D 3.5 the Challenge Rating means "a classic adventuring party consisting of fighter, cleric, wizard, and rogue of the appropriate level must spend 1/4 of their resources to overcome that treat."

So a CR of 20 means that LV 20 Adventuring Party can defeat it if they spend a quarter of their resources on hand, like potions, scrolls, charges from the staff, uses per day from the rods, spell slots, and hit points.

Click to shrink...

I get that, the joke I was making was about the CR of fighting the combat system itself as a whole.

 

[tarrangar]

Tarra. Heaven would be opening another front we'd have to keep constant attention on.
A place we'd have no "fuck it, all's lost, leave it to burn"-option because Heart Trees destroyed or captured hurt Old Gods.
Regardless of where on HEaven we plop it down, it's an unnecessary war front to open - it gains us nothing. Literally nothing of worth at the moment.

Regardless of how many CR 20's we can throw there, we'd need infrastructure to defend the place. Ships. Praetorians. Cannon emplacements.
Can we justify it by some resource present, or by it being a strategic location of enough import (like Crucible that would allow us a lot of options if settled)?
No. No we cannot. Not while we still have the Planetosi (Illithids, Drow, 15th, Winter coming, Bloodstone Emperor) and the off-plane threats (Efreeti, Illithids, asshole Archdevils) to handle.

Finally, Heaven simply deserves a separate long-term expedition/diplomacy/intrigue arc.
We fucked up the last time we visited and we turned it into a quick loot-and-run errand.
We rushed and Hellven got less interesting. If we degrade it to "another Maelor's shop" it is fucked to the deep end.

Click to shrink...

Heaven's Shore deserve that kind of treatment, the outlands are pretty much just one giant dungeon run, there's no diplomacy out there, just the mystery of what the void did, and dangers so grave Pitlords occasionally go missing.

Also a heart tree being destroyed is bad, but it's not end of the world bad, the old gods have lost heart trees before, they ask that you make an effort to protect heart trees, but they wont cut ties because you failed.

I just don't think it would be worth the investment or eventual repercussions, because it could start a war we aren't ready to fight. That's the kind of thing we can't do until Planetos is consolidated and we don't behave enemies at every approach.

Click to shrink...

I don't really see how it could start a war, sure if we put it close to Heaven's Shore, but if we put it a thousand miles away, well there's no one to start a war with for a thousand miles, and all Fungal creatures instincts, are to basically sit on their butts until prey wander in.

Adding to this, infecting the Jabberwock with a Fungal template explicitly will not make it loyal. It's literally insane and basically feral for all intents and purposes. That's not the kind of asset we want anywhere near something as important as a Heart Tree. I can easily see it attacking something it really, really shouldn't be poking, and drawing down hellfire on it and the Heart Tree.

No. No thank you. No dumbass vassals for us.

Hell, this thing would be too insane to ever count as a vassal in the first place.

Click to shrink...

It wont make it loyal, but it will subsume its personality in favor of the personality of a Fungal creature, which is sitting on its butt until a living creature wander in, at which point it will attack it to infect it with its spores.

So it wouldn't be a vassal, it would be a guard dog, because that's what natural Fungal creatures are guard dogs, they never move from their post, and attack any creature they see, meaning that they are easy to use, just plop them down around whatever you want guarded, and they will guard it.

But I can see you guys are against this plan, and I promised I wouldn't keep bringing it up, so I will accept that the thread don't want it, and stop bringing it up.

Although I have to ask, are you guys only against the use it for guarding a Heaven tree part, or are you also against the idea, of infecting things with Fungal spores to make guard dogs?

 

[tarrangar]

We could eventually work something out. But no matter what, making a Fungal-infected Jabberwock the tree's guardian is a terrible idea. The devils would rightfully exterminate it the second they realize it's there.

Click to shrink...

Well of course, my plan was solely if we wanted to plant a tree outside Heaven's Shore, Broken Heaven is still an endless plane after all, and I thought maybe a CR24 creature would be powerful enough, that it was viable to expect it to be able to survive in the wilds of Heaven.

 

[Tomcost]

What do you mean, exactly? The only one that more or less have that going is R'llor, and so far he's perfectly fine with fudging prophecies and stuff in our favor so long as we keep winning, and since our opponents are literally a Transcendental Void that devoured heaven, it's in our best interest to continue winning.

Click to shrink...

Syrax once tried to be reborn as our future daughter, and thus our future heir, as part of a bargain with her.

That was an insult to the collective intelligence of the thread and an offense that would have made anybody else into fertilizer.

Alas, she has useful information. Sometimes.

Also I'm upset at the fact that I didn't see that when I first read her offer. So this comes from the Salt Cave too.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Although I have to ask, are you guys only against the use it for guarding a Heaven tree part, or are you also against the idea, of infecting things with Fungal spores to make guard dog

Click to shrink...

Fungal infection is dangerous on every level, and a waste of good base creatures in most cases. We can get away with some more dangerous creatures since the OG splinter spirits are guaranteed to be loyal, but any manual or self replicating spread is just asking to skynet ourselves with up jumped mold.

 

[Duesal]

Syrax once tried to be reborn as our future daughter, and thus our future heir, as part of a bargain with her.

That was an insult to the collective intelligence of the thread and an offense that would have made anybody else into fertilizer.

Alas, she has useful information. Sometimes.

Also I'm upset at the fact that I didn't see that when I first read her offer. So this comes from the Salt Cave too.

Click to shrink...

Insulting enough that we had her swear to all our terms before we even considered a bargain with her.

Many thanks to Yss for being a bro and forcing the truth out of her forked tongue.

 

[Goldfish]

Although I have to ask, are you guys only against the use it for guarding a Heaven tree part, or are you also against the idea, of infecting things with Fungal spores to make guard dogs?

Click to shrink...

I'm against it because I don't want to try to set up an outpost in Hellven right now, no matter how far from Heaven's Shore it is. That's just asking for trouble that we don't need right now.

Also, I've been adamant about not producing anything that can self-replicate. Our Fungal creatures, for example, don't propagate using spores. There are already too many potential apocalypses in play to accidentally create our own.

 

[Shador]

[X] Crake

 

[egoo]

Tarra, stop.
This is another Kongomato/turn people into dragons situation.
You got people expressing reasonable counters to this idea for years. You keep arguing for it using the same arguments.
All you do is aggravate people and make them more interested in counter-voting to whatever you propose.

Just accept we aren't doing it and be done.

As a matter of fact, I will continue ignoring anything you post on the subject from now on. I am sufficiently motivated aggravated again.


Jabberwocky's CE, made by way-too-op Feylords, and, drumroll... is essentially Kongomato 2.0 unless we break it down and rebuild from the ground, taking away all the bits that make it unreliable as a minion/
And that'd be okay. But will take time and stuff other than Fungal tempalte alone.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Insulting enough that we had her swear to all our terms before we even considered a bargain with her.

Many thanks to Yss for being a bro and forcing the truth out of her forked tongue.

Click to shrink...

It wasn't just insulting; that plan was basically to abort our firstborn's soul so she could use their meatsuit. I don't know how you're supposed to take a proposition like that, but my gut reaction is poorly.

 

[tarrangar]

Fungal infection is dangerous on every level, and a waste of good base creatures in most cases. We can get away with some more dangerous creatures since the OG splinter spirits are guaranteed to be loyal, but any manual or self replicating spread is just asking to skynet ourselves with up jumped mold.

Click to shrink...

It's just a less dangerous zombie plague(less dangerous because Fungal creatures don't seek new victims out, they just sit and think until hapless victims come to them) and unlike with a zombie plague, you don't need to kill the zombie before you can resurrect the original.

I'm against it because I don't want to try to set up an outpost in Hellven right now, no matter how far from Heaven's Shore it is. That's just asking for trouble that we don't need right now.

Also, I've been adamant about not producing anything that can self-replicate. Our Fungal creatures, for example, don't propagate using spores. There are already too many potential apocalypses in play to accidentally create our own.

Click to shrink...

Fungal creatures aren't an apocalypse though, their instincts are far too passive for that, they could cause a local extinction event, but their description explicitly say that when they don't see prey, they will just sit down and think, which more or less mean a Fungal apocalypse stop, the moment there aren't more nearby creatures to hunt.

They don't retain class levels either, so really they are fairly mild as far as apocalypses go, them getting out would have been a problem at lower levels, but it wouldn't be a big problem now.

But if you think it's too risky, then I guess I can accept that, even if I think unleashing a Fungal infestation on our enemies would be great, especially when they're in a place without a lot of wildlife, throwing a Fungal Jabberwocky at the City of Brass, would be a fun terrorist attack.

But Egoo has pointed out I'm getting obnoxious, and I'm trying to reign that in, so I will try to make this my last post on the subject.

 

[One Autumn Leaf]

Syrax once tried to be reborn as our future daughter, and thus our future heir, as part of a bargain with her.

That was an insult to the collective intelligence of the thread and an offense that would have made anybody else into fertilizer.

Alas, she has useful information. Sometimes.

Also I'm upset at the fact that I didn't see that when I first read her offer. So this comes from the Salt Cave too.

Click to shrink...

Oh right...that. Not my best showing in the thread I will admit but I was too busy frothing at the mouth at the thought of that event.

 

[Crake]

If a proposal is presented that takes away resources from other present projects, expect @egoo to aggressively denounce it.

On that note, I get the general read of the thread, the zeitgeist if you will, that most of us do not want new research projects. We have exactly as many on our plate as we can handle at present.

Maybe you should pursue your agenda first by gradually impressing the need to recruit researchers onto the thread?

That's something even your most ardent opponents will begrudgingly give ground on.

 

[Azel]

Well of course, my plan was solely if we wanted to plant a tree outside Heaven's Shore, Broken Heaven is still an endless plane after all, and I thought maybe a CR24 creature would be powerful enough, that it was viable to expect it to be able to survive in the wilds of Heaven.

Click to shrink...

It's not. Gods died in that wasteland.

 

[Crake]

It wasn't just insulting; that plan was basically to abort our firstborn's soul so she could use their meatsuit. I don't know how you're supposed to take a proposition like that, but my gut reaction is poorly.

Click to shrink...

It showed a distinct lack of knowledge of our motivation and character.

It was insulting that she knew so much about us, and yet so little. She metaphysically manipulated us into the position we were in, and yet was criminally unable to socially manipulate us. We do not like being made fools of, but most especially, emphatically, the thread hates being manipulated by someone we find is actually not half as clever as they think they are.

 

[tarrangar]

If a proposal is presented that takes away resources from other present projects, expect @egoo to aggressively denounce it.

On that note, I get the general read of the thread, the zeitgeist if you will, that most of us do not want new research projects. We have exactly as many on our plate as we can handle at present.

Maybe you should pursue your agenda first by gradually impressing the need to recruit researchers onto the thread?

That's something even your most ardent opponents will begrudgingly give ground on.

Click to shrink...

This wasn't a research project though, at least I don't think it was, we already have access to Fungal spores, we just have never used them for fear of a fungal apocalypse.