A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

[Crake]

This is explicitly wrong. He's entirely aware of the fact that Viserys can kill him at range, and he's been getting Lannisters to make ranged weapons + ways to force melee combat. Forcing melee combat makes perfect sense when you're a Westerosi King whose greatest military asset is melee cavalry.

Click to shrink...

Additionally I was more pointing out how the entire conceit is stupid and asinine. There's virtually nothing guaranteeing or implying Viserys will engage him personally, and won't just order his death. A leader in a weaker position, politically, socially, militarily and economically might need to focus on the image of being a warrior who can get down and dirty with the men and even take down the other strong warrior leader-guy, but everyone knows the problem Viserys faces doesn't come from having a weak hand, but perhaps his having a too-strong one, at least as far as getting people to do what he says goes.

Furthermore, the idea that any of those methods would work is ludicrous and doesn't actually address the point that his method of "leveling the field" with regards to us to one that plays to his strengths completely ignores that war as we are waging doesn't work like that. Beyond the fog of war and the imperviousness to foresight, Robert and everyone in his side is playing a weaker hand in terms of information acquisition and subterfuge.

The idea he could lead us into an encounter rather than us forcing him into a position desirable to us is quite ludicrous, not just talking about competencies, or even just resources, though we had the edge there, but personality. It wouldn't even come to mind that Viserys might not want to kill him personally, that their grudge isn't mutual. Why wouldn't it be? He killed Rhaegar, took Aerys' throne, exiled him and his sister. It's as personal as it gets!

Viserys has had the capability to at least engage Robert militarily for multiple years, though. It would have been as destructive a war as you could imagine, chaotic, haphazard, but we would have had pretty strong hand at it, compared to some of the fights we'd gotten into in the last year alone.

He has shown no signs of wanting to win Westeros via traditional conquest, however, and our deliberate actions in manipulating opinions and such has shown we are more than willing to wait until only Tywin was propping up his rule. Which we did... even up to the point where serious effort was being exerted (at least from Robert's PoV) to try to make killing us easier if we'd gotten into a fight.

I don't see what you were getting at, the problem with Robert is there's too much to pick apart here, where the only defense is "he wouldn't have thought about it like that" / "didn't have enough information", but that's just worse in a different way.

 

[KnightofTempest]

Additionally I was more pointing out how the entire conceit is stupid and asinine. There's virtually nothing guaranteeing or implying Viserys will engage him personally, and won't just order his death. A leader in a weaker position, politically, socially, militarily and economically might need to focus on the image of being a warrior who can get down and dirty with the men and even take down the other strong warrior leader-guy, but everyone knows the problem Viserys faces doesn't come from having a weak hand, but perhaps his having a too-strong one, at least as far as getting people to do what he says goes.

Furthermore, the idea that any of those methods would work is ludicrous and doesn't actually address the point that his method of "leveling the field" with regards to us to one that plays to his strengths completely ignores that war as we are waging doesn't work like that. Beyond the fog of war and the imperviousness to foresight, Robert and everyone in his side is playing a weaker hand in terms of information acquisition and subterfuge.

The idea he could lead us into an encounter rather than us forcing him into a position desirable to us is quite ludicrous, not just talking about competencies, or even just resources, though we had the edge there, but personality. It wouldn't even come to mind that Viserys might not want to kill him personally, that their grudge isn't mutual. Why wouldn't it be? He killed Rhaegar, took Aerys' throne, exiled him and his sister. It's as personal as it gets!

Viserys has had the capability to at least engage Robert militarily for multiple years, though. It would have been as destructive a war as you could imagine, chaotic, haphazard, but we would have had pretty strong hand at it, compared to some of the fights we'd gotten into in the last year alone.

He has shown no signs of wanting to win Westeros via traditional conquest, however, and our deliberate actions in manipulating opinions and such has shown we are more than willing to wait until only Tywin was propping up his rule. Which we did... even up to the point where serious effort was being exerted (at least from Robert's PoV) to try to make killing us easier if we'd gotten into a fight.

I don't see what you were getting at, the problem with Robert is there's too much to pick apart here, where the only defense is "he wouldn't have thought about it like that" / "didn't have enough information", but that's just worse in a different way.

Click to shrink...

Its possible that Tywin had the Golden Shields whip up some Anti-magic field device that could lock us out of the sorcery we typically employ in combat.

It wouldn't stop the Legion, but it would force a more traditional fight. At least up to a point anyway. That was probably Robert's whole plan. Figure out a way to take away the magic so that his heavy horse can come in and win the day in typical westerosi fashion.

Unfortunately for him, he's going to be too busy fighting loyalists to deal with the Legion until its too late.

 

[Crake]

Its possible that Tywin had the Golden Shields whip up some Anti-magic field device that could lock us out of the sorcery we typically employ in combat.

It wouldn't stop the Legion, but it would force a more traditional fight. At least up to a point anyway. That was probably Robert's whole plan. Figure out a way to take away the magic so that his heavy horse can come in and win the day in typical westerosi fashion.

Unfortunately for him, he's going to be too busy fighting loyalists to deal with the Legion until its too late.

Click to shrink...

And even without magic... we're still a Dragon. Even without it.

While true that an ability like Malarys' is possible, his requires touch and is more useful for use on an already restrained or unaware target.

I'm not saying "but then he could X" isn't possible, I am merely pointing out that the more moving parts required to make this ass-backwards plans possible, the more it underscores how ass-backwards it all is.

How about just not sucking, Robert?!

 

[KnightofTempest]

And even without magic... we're still a Dragon. Even without it.

While true that an ability like Malarys' is possible, his requires touch and is more useful for use on an already restrained or unaware target.

I'm not saying "but then he could X" isn't possible, I am merely pointing out that the more moving parts required to make this ass-backwards plans possible, the more it underscores how ass-backwards it all is.

How about just not sucking, Robert?!

Click to shrink...

Pretty sure transforming into a dragon counts as magic.

Anti-magic fields stop SLA's just as much as they do magic. . .

Pretty much anything that isn't Divine Magic, Psionics, or an ability with the EX tag is stopped by anyimagic fields.

 

[Crake]

Pretty sure transforming into a dragon counts as magic.

Anti-magic fields stop SLA's just as much as they do magic. . .

Pretty much anything that isn't Divine Magic, Psionics, or an ability with the EX tag is stopped by anyimagic fields.

Click to shrink...

Been long established Viserys can use Dragon form even under an AMF... we've casted / been subject to one in such circumstances.

Edit: Remember, we are not a "human who can turn into a dragon". For all intents and purposes, we are a Red Chromatic Dragon, with the racial template applied via class levels, but that is as natural a form for us as the humanoid one.

Thus it doesn't register as a traditional magical effect to be shut down by AMF, we just are.

 

[KnightofTempest]

Been long established Viserys can use Dragon form even under an AMF... we've casted / been subject to one in such circumstances.

Edit: Remember, we are not a "human who can turn into a dragon". For all intents and purposes, we are a Red Chromatic Dragon, with the racial template applied via class levels, but that is as natural a form for us as the humanoid one.

Thus it doesn't register as a traditional magical effect to be shut down by AMF, we just are.

Click to shrink...

A Dragon's Polymorph is a spell like ability and gets shut down by an AMF just the same as anything else per rules as written.

Granted if thats Viserys' true form, that just means that he's stuck in Dragon Form for the fight. . .

 

[Crake]

A Dragon's Polymorph is a spell like ability and gets shut down by an AMF just the same as anything else per rules as written.

Granted if thats Viserys' true form, that just means that he's stuck in Dragon Form for the fight. . .

Click to shrink...

It's not Polymorph. Both forms are true forms.

I don't think whether or not we can change back and forth has ever been relevant while in those conditions, but I don't imagine we'd have any trouble.

 

[KnightofTempest]

It's not Polymorph. Both form are true forms.

I don't think whether or not we can change back and forth has ever been relevant while in those conditions, but I don't imagine we'd have any trouble.

Click to shrink...

Thats how dragons change forms per the MM. They get Polymorph Self as a spell like ability once they reach a certain age category.

I'm not sure it works the way you say without a certain amount of homebrewing involved. . .

 

[Crake]

Thats how dragons change forms per the MM. They get Polymorph Self as a spell like ability once they reach a certain age category.

I'm not sure it works the way you say without a certain amount of homebrewing involved. . .

Click to shrink...

Well, the whole class is homebrew.

Also, this is a moot point anyway... Spellbane: Anti-Magic Field. And a few other spells, like Disjunction.

The amount of hoops you would have to jump through to take away Viserys' magic is giving me a severe headache thinking about it, so I am just going to drop this argument. I don't need to be convinced it's possible, only that we'd be idiotic enough to place ourselves in that position in the first place.

We deserve to die to Bobby the Hammer Guy in that case.

 

[KnightofTempest]

Well, the whole class is homebrew.

Also, this is a moot point anyway... Spellbane: Anti-Magic Field. And a few other spells, like Disjunction.

The amount of hoops you would have to jump through to take away Viserys' magic is giving me a severe headache thinking about it, so I am just going to drop this argument. I don't need to be convinced it's possible, only that we'd be idiotic enough to place ourselves in that position in the first place.

We deserve to die to Bobby the Hammer Guy in that case.

Click to shrink...

All I'm saying is that Tywin is devious and has had access to an entire Formian Hive's worth of Knowledge for a number of years now.

The possibility of it shouldn't be discounted. . .

 

[BronzeTongue]

All I'm saying is that Tywin is devious and has had access to an entire Formian Hive's worth of Knowledge for a number of years now.

The possibility of it shouldn't be discounted. . .

Click to shrink...

You're not wrong, but I kind of doubt he's taking that exact approach. Relative to the markets he's shopping in Tywin is fairly poor, and doesn't have many connections.

He's put a lot of effort into his weird dragon monsters, so I don't think he'd have the time or resources to also work out how to seal the magic of a mythic archmage and force him into his weakest form.

If he had a reasonable path to pulling that off he'd be pouring resources into reducing us to a muggle so he could have the mountain beat us to death or something.

 

[Goldfish]

Pretty sure transforming into a dragon counts as magic.

Anti-magic fields stop SLA's just as much as they do magic. . .

Pretty much anything that isn't Divine Magic, Psionics, or an ability with the EX tag is stopped by anyimagic fields.

Click to shrink...

It's been long established that Viserys' ability to transform between Human and Dragon is an Extraordinary ability, a sort of innate magic that supersedes normal Antimagic effects, just like the innate magic that allows Dragons to fly.

 

[Goldfish]

And then... we build roads in Westeros.

And it'll practically happen overnight. Which will make the loyalists really smug, like "see he's already done more than the Stag and he's just been here for a month".

Click to shrink...

Considering that we currently have 26 sets of Titan's Tools, along with 5 more sets scheduled for pickup later this month, the infrastructure upgrades coming for Westeros are going to be crazy fast. Actually overnight in some places.

It's probably going to be a bigger shock to most Westerosi folks than the reconquest itself.

 

[KnightofTempest]

You're not wrong, but I kind of doubt he's taking that exact approach. Relative to the markets he's shopping in Tywin is fairly poor, and doesn't have many connections.

He's put a lot of effort into his weird dragon monsters, so I don't think he'd have the time or resources to also work out how to seal the magic of a mythic archmage and force him into his weakest form.

If he had a reasonable path to pulling that off he'd be pouring resources into reducing us to a muggle so he could have the mountain beat us to death or something.

Click to shrink...

I'm just saying, this is the culmination of a plot thread that has existed since game start. I don't think it will be as much of a walkover as everyone thinks.

If nothing else, it'd be bad game design. . .

 

[BronzeTongue]

I'm just saying, this is the culmination of a plot thread that has existed since game start. I don't think it will be as much of a walkover as everyone thinks.

If nothing else, it'd be bad game design. . .

Click to shrink...

I agree that it won't be a walk in the park, I just don't think he'll go for that mechanism. I don't recall all of the intelligence reports we've gotten on him, but I'm pretty sure that Tywin is going for anti dragon curses, followed by sending his mutant dragon derivatives to stomp on us while we try to resist something in the zip code of the Valyrian's draconic lobotomy spell.

 

[Tomcost]

I agree that it won't be a walk in the park, I just don't think he'll go for that mechanism. I don't recall all of the intelligence reports we've gotten on him, but I'm pretty sure that Tywin is going for anti dragon curses, followed by sending his mutant dragon derivatives to stomp on us while we try to resist something in the zip code of the Valyrian's draconic lobotomy spell.

Click to shrink...

Which we will ignore by sending undead to take care of him. Because we are not dumb enough to charge headfirst into that, and we actually have a huge collection of minions beside dragons.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Which we will ignore by sending undead to take care of him. Because we are not dumb enough to charge headfirst into that, and we actually have a huge collection of minions beside dragons.

Click to shrink...

That comes down to strategy. We're going to avoid walking into his trap if we can, but presumably he has a plan for deploying it that doesn't rely on us knocking on his front door and asking him if Lana can come out to play.

 

[DragonParadox]

Vote closed. I'd hoped to have time to put up a map and population numbers on this little corner of limbo but I was too busy so far.

Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 6, 2020 at 9:48 AM, finished with 87 posts and 18 votes.

• ---

  18 people have voted

  [X] Plan Recon
  -[X] Before we attempt to broach the subject of his true identity or purpose here, we will first locate Renly and observe him and his companions, using all means at our disposal, including Divinations, Scrying, and mind reading. We will, of course, take all necessary precautions to remain undiscovered.
  -[X] We will also attempt to learn more about this unusual pocket of Limbo, how it remains stable, and whether or not revealing Renly's true identity might trigger hidden contingencies placed by Nairos' faction. It could also be useful if we can learn how such a large number of Petitioners were gathered, protected, and kept from scattering or fading.

  • Goldfish
  • silvanknight
  • Othan763
  • Faucar
  • Ace of Scarabs
  • SeekerofLight
  • egoo
  • Speed53066
  • F0lkL0re
  • Interregnum
  • Duesal
  • Takesis
  • Miriam
  • Crake
  • Shador
  • One Autumn Leaf
  • fan550
  • QueenPally

 

[Azel]

That comes down to strategy. We're going to avoid walking into his trap if we can, but presumably he has a plan for deploying it that doesn't rely on us knocking on his front door and asking him if Lana can come out to play.

Click to shrink...

He'll then still have to deploy his assets in the firing range of the Dauntless, which is not a fun place to be for anything not immune to cannons.

 

[Shador]

I agree that it won't be a walk in the park, I just don't think he'll go for that mechanism. I don't recall all of the intelligence reports we've gotten on him, but I'm pretty sure that Tywin is going for anti dragon curses, followed by sending his mutant dragon derivatives to stomp on us while we try to resist something in the zip code of the Valyrian's draconic lobotomy spell.

Click to shrink...

Which we will ignore by sending undead to take care of him. Because we are not dumb enough to charge headfirst into that, and we actually have a huge collection of minions beside dragons.

Click to shrink...

That comes down to strategy. We're going to avoid walking into his trap if we can, but presumably he has a plan for deploying it that doesn't rely on us knocking on his front door and asking him if Lana can come out to play.

Click to shrink...

He'll then still have to deploy his assets in the firing range of the Dauntless, which is not a fun place to be for anything not immune to cannons.

Click to shrink...

Twyns problem, (well, one of his problems anyway) is that he acts like we are the second coming of Aegon the Conqueror. He seems to think that, because the first Targaryen conquest of Westeros was only possible thanks to the dragons, if he can just negate our advantage in that area he might have a chance to survive the coming war. At least that is what his seeming obsesion with dragon related stratagems seem to indicate.

 

[Azel]

Twyns problem, (well, one of his problems anyway) is that he acts like we are the second coming of Aegon the Conqueror. He seems to think that, because the first Targaryen conquest of Westeros was only possible thanks to the dragons, if he can just negate our advantage in that area he might have a chance to survive the coming war. At least that is what his seeming obsesion with dragon related stratagems seem to indicate.

Click to shrink...

Well. We simply outpaced Westeros technologically by going full magitech on them. Meanwhile, Tywin is still trying to fight a medieval war.

 

[egoo]

We kinda assume much of Tywin's planning, don't we?
I mean, hell, look at the stuff CoS were planning.
Can we honestly tell that Tywin doesn't have some similar high-meta plans to try and handle us?

Dragons and arcane ballistas are all nice and well, and that he's summoning Devils and seems to have got Lana brainwashed is neat too, but I recon he'd have some equivalent to Red Orb of Dragonkidna brewing, or something.

Hm, that thing we still have, actually, don't we?
Then with the recent catches, we have 3(!) sacrifices with CR over 20 waiting their time.

 

[Azel]

We kinda assume much of Tywin's planning, don't we?
I mean, hell, look at the stuff CoS were planning.
Can we honestly tell that Tywin doesn't have some similar high-meta plans to try and handle us?

Dragons and arcane ballistas are all nice and well, and that he's summoning Devils and seems to have got Lana brainwashed is neat too, but I recon he'd have some equivalent to Red Orb of Dragonkidna brewing, or something.

Hm, that thing we still have, actually, don't we?
Then with the recent catches, we have 3(!) sacrifices with CR over 20 waiting their time.

Click to shrink...

We have had pretty much zero indication that he got something on that level. At all.


Also, we should keep those sacrifices to power up the Imperial Pseudo-Deity. We will need serious juice for that.

 

[egoo]

Also, we should keep those sacrifices to power up the Imperial Pseudo-Deity. We will need serious juice for that.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I've been thinking along those lines as well.

Well, that, or if we suddenly run into another CoS-grade shitshow.
Qohor and Slavers' Bay might just justify force-feeding our Gods on short notice if we crit-fail a bunch of rolls.

 

[Faucar]

I wonder how paranoid Tywin is about us spying on him since from his point of view he has heard nothing of spying on him from us for years (since we only just started).
So he is either thinking we are spying on him and he never caught anything or that we are completely disregarding him and that he can use it to take us by surprise.
I suppose it doesn't really matters apart for knowing his mental state since in either case he is taking mesures to protect what he is doing from divination and probably other mundane means.