Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Or the lesser version, Power Word: Photocopy...
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
-
- Tags
- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
While I agree with you about the sentiment behind not creating dragons to power game, when you mentioned your ideas for Parchment dragons and the other two types, I was actually on board with it. I think it got lost in the dross of everyone generally agreeing they did not want to invest in Nu-Metallic breeds.
- Location
- Germany
I know, but I got the impression most people didn't want more breeds made. So I axed those plans.
For just the information that's fine, but the ability to take knowledge checks as the creature seems more comprehensive. There's a huge difference between getting a bonus to your knowledge roll from reading someone's mind and getting their honest best attempt to figure something out.Or the lesser version, Power Word: Photocopy...
- Location
- United States
I'm not sure where you got that sentiment. When you brought up dragons that have specific roles in the Imperium, people were all for it.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
I'll be honest, I'm consistently stumped by how you manage to find a 'popular opinion' when there's none in this thread.
I remember only one(!) post disputing making more dragon breeds, and even that one under the premise "buh w8, won't they would get tempted by Tiamat?", not by "dragons are bad, mmkay?".
Shit, the entire reason I kept tagging ya when talking about Imperial Dragons was because I saw those ideas for dragons and assumed you still went on with those!
Because there were more than a few people being enthusiastic bout that!
*REEEEEEEEEEs internally in great confusion*
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
Were you recently nearby any bodies of water?
I'm decently sure that the last times I brought this up, I got only vaguely "do not want" replies.
@Goldfish'es are especially bitey these days.
[
]Buh for real, the only discussions dunking on dragon breeds were those about Metallics (duh, we don't like Bahamut) and Chromatics (duh, see discussion a bit before - no one's interested in remaking those. Even me. For real, I just added that b/c someone asked for Progress to compare stuff by).
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Remind me to share you my ideas I've been writing for Outsiders of the Imperial type.
I've been calling them Icons by the way.
In the same way you have Legion Archons and Lantern Archons.
Actually, I have some stuff written at this point.
Imperial Icons
Note: This is not a formal proposal, merely grease to lubricate discussion and perhaps a base to build upon.
To whom it may concern,
I did not originally intend penning these thoughts into ink and page, not until we had more than wet clay in which to grasp upon our own ambitions.
And isn't that a fine thing to say in and of itself? Our ambitions. Dreams of empire are something I have equal share in, but while I am bound and determined to see it through to the very end, I do not yet feel I have equal claim over it with Viserys. That is his passion, I can see it in him, the only time I see more focus and inspiration in him is when he crafts Power into form, by way of spell, legend leveraged or pact forged. I hope to walk side by side with him, and with just as much conviction some day.
But this is something we will build together, part by part, in equal measure.
Some might point out the foibles and faults of basing all of your own designs upon your predecessors', but in this case a lack of understanding, comprehension and awareness was in some part what led to a steady and seemingly inevitable decline. A loss of knowledge, a loss of form and function. This is a broken reality, and what was wracked with ruin cannot be rebuilt as it was. But something new can be made. What magic unmade, magic can create, sometimes whole and sometimes in part.
We are to understand the underpinnings of Souls, of Ideoforms, one must understand the pinnacle and underlying principles of not only an ideology, the motives involved in their creation and management by systems nearly as old as time, but also the spiritual make-up of those composed of soulfire taken from outside the cycle of conventional life and death. The background composition of a mortal animus is composed of components which birthed it on its world of origin, whereas those formed wholly or in part from restructured souls brought in by the selfsame cycle will fill in wholly, or yes, partially, by the background composition of the Sphere upon which it was next formatted.
That is why one might find links to Conceptual 'Law' and 'Evil' in that of the Bateezu, why 'Good' and 'Chaos' link in some ways back to an emblematic waveform, touching in part with the maelstrom of the Abyss as much as it does the Celestial graces sundered of Elysium, where one bleeds upon the other in unpredictable and yet wholly deliberate ways.
Both have guiding agents taking an active hand in ensuring their compositions remain consistent. Without that guiding hand, you have free floating concepts and domains, which will eventually share links with the empire of thought and form as it does with time, upon which the basis of mortal idolatry orders the spheres around it even as the spheres were ordered from primordial chaos into particles, substances and elements which are the basis for life as we know it.
Solars could be considered the same as the guiding hand which balances the purposes of those ideoforms, who, by their very nature, must consider virtue the same as they do purpose. Mortals do not chase chimeric ideals in all but the most unique individual circumstances, but that is not the basis of any soul which is composed with a degree of resolution that it defies mortal comprehension. What an angel would consider virtuous might be the surest path toward madness for most men and women in the world under the sun to tread down.
And by the same token, while mortals tread between paths spiraling ever upward or downward upon itself, as it wars with nature and nurture both, it is possible for purpose to turn inward so diametrically that it loses sight of its original objective, in place of new ones which might reflect its origin as a prism does light, but not in any manner that one could claim the two equivalent. "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof" sounds trite until you look into the Pit yourself, and consider what abandoning the present common values one holds sacrosanct, against the potential permutations of perils a nebulous future holds. One of possibility and chance narrowed ever further into an infinitesimally smaller range, until only one exists.
This, too, is madness for mortals, but a poison all the more repulsive for how comprehendible it is. One can hate the Pit which birthed the idea of an ordered future and feel sympathy for the devil, such as it were, and link that common origin with the purpose similarly ordered souls uphold even unto this day and age, a link of common origin begetting understanding, and from that understanding mutual purpose.
An ordered or unordered afterlife is one of purpose, and beyond ordinary objective reasoning, that purpose is the fulcrum upon which each ideoform forges its link with the Sphere itself.
So what that means is, so too must forms we hope to forge have a fulcrum of purpose, and moreover, given its nature as linked to an engineered conceptual font of power, it must also not lose sight of its own origin, or it will cease to be one that orders itself based upon the needs of its guiding agents, slip away from its present edifice and raise or lower itself based upon the ultimate source of its limited perspective, id, ego, and super-ego, and the unattended needs of the souls that pass through it onto other realms.
-Lya the Sage
What is an Icon?
An Icon is a soul which, at its base, is regarded as one who is both a symbol, and a link of common origin to the Empire which birthed it. It imposes the order sought by that Empire by the composition of the Spheres surrounding it, and the greater collective will of its people are imposed by them against all that seeks to quash or manipulate it higher or lower and across the matrix of axiomatic alignment.
Fiends seek to corrupt, and Celestials might seek to save. An Icon will seek to impose and mediate with regards to the interests of an Empire, with ideoforms fit for both purposes.
Representing the varied number of beings from across the philosophical divide, and the passage of life and death from whom much of the Imperial citizens are subject to. These beings are larger than life, and for a reason, commanding the utmost respect from their subordinates but able to find common ground with mortals, for it is from the common link with an engineered edifice that surrounds them, the guiding agents of this waking dream ensure that the values of their contemporaries match their present purpose.
Individual beings who, despite their differences, nonetheless agree that the world in which they inhabited would be molded toward the whims of uncaring tyrants from distant thrones, unconcerned with the lives or collective will of its peoples. A present state of affairs that they sadly, or perhaps fortunately, depending on who you would ask, seek to eschew, with which to balance the concerns of both.
Paragon Icon; Alignment Varies
Unique existences which fit an ideal espoused by the collective will of the Imperium, or else considered useful and essential existences which nonetheless fall outside normal parameters for the system they inhabit, Paragon Icons are supernal followers of the state and fit the classification for 'one who achieves greater heights'.
Contrary to most Outsiders on the upper-end of power, Paragons are deliberately non-standardized, sharing similar physical traits to a degree but generally work best paired with a small group of their fellows.
Capable of covering each other's deficiencies and help them achieve greater success in their area of expertise, whether that be a caster assisting a smith in creating amazing weapons, or a warrior at the front made all the more deadly through the divine magic of their peers, seeking obscure knowledge to better help a spy navigate through treacherous pathways, or helping a diplomat find common ground with their counterpart from another Power.
Unlike most other Outsiders, Paragon Icons have alignments and dispositions stretching straight across the board without discernment toward any one in particular, but all find common ground in the overall vision of the Empire and will execute its edicts and decrees with extreme prejudice when called upon to do so, in whatever manner and by whichever means they are best suited toward.
Note: This is not a formal proposal, merely grease to lubricate discussion and perhaps a base to build upon.
To whom it may concern,
I did not originally intend penning these thoughts into ink and page, not until we had more than wet clay in which to grasp upon our own ambitions.
And isn't that a fine thing to say in and of itself? Our ambitions. Dreams of empire are something I have equal share in, but while I am bound and determined to see it through to the very end, I do not yet feel I have equal claim over it with Viserys. That is his passion, I can see it in him, the only time I see more focus and inspiration in him is when he crafts Power into form, by way of spell, legend leveraged or pact forged. I hope to walk side by side with him, and with just as much conviction some day.
But this is something we will build together, part by part, in equal measure.
Some might point out the foibles and faults of basing all of your own designs upon your predecessors', but in this case a lack of understanding, comprehension and awareness was in some part what led to a steady and seemingly inevitable decline. A loss of knowledge, a loss of form and function. This is a broken reality, and what was wracked with ruin cannot be rebuilt as it was. But something new can be made. What magic unmade, magic can create, sometimes whole and sometimes in part.
We are to understand the underpinnings of Souls, of Ideoforms, one must understand the pinnacle and underlying principles of not only an ideology, the motives involved in their creation and management by systems nearly as old as time, but also the spiritual make-up of those composed of soulfire taken from outside the cycle of conventional life and death. The background composition of a mortal animus is composed of components which birthed it on its world of origin, whereas those formed wholly or in part from restructured souls brought in by the selfsame cycle will fill in wholly, or yes, partially, by the background composition of the Sphere upon which it was next formatted.
That is why one might find links to Conceptual 'Law' and 'Evil' in that of the Bateezu, why 'Good' and 'Chaos' link in some ways back to an emblematic waveform, touching in part with the maelstrom of the Abyss as much as it does the Celestial graces sundered of Elysium, where one bleeds upon the other in unpredictable and yet wholly deliberate ways.
Both have guiding agents taking an active hand in ensuring their compositions remain consistent. Without that guiding hand, you have free floating concepts and domains, which will eventually share links with the empire of thought and form as it does with time, upon which the basis of mortal idolatry orders the spheres around it even as the spheres were ordered from primordial chaos into particles, substances and elements which are the basis for life as we know it.
Solars could be considered the same as the guiding hand which balances the purposes of those ideoforms, who, by their very nature, must consider virtue the same as they do purpose. Mortals do not chase chimeric ideals in all but the most unique individual circumstances, but that is not the basis of any soul which is composed with a degree of resolution that it defies mortal comprehension. What an angel would consider virtuous might be the surest path toward madness for most men and women in the world under the sun to tread down.
And by the same token, while mortals tread between paths spiraling ever upward or downward upon itself, as it wars with nature and nurture both, it is possible for purpose to turn inward so diametrically that it loses sight of its original objective, in place of new ones which might reflect its origin as a prism does light, but not in any manner that one could claim the two equivalent. "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof" sounds trite until you look into the Pit yourself, and consider what abandoning the present common values one holds sacrosanct, against the potential permutations of perils a nebulous future holds. One of possibility and chance narrowed ever further into an infinitesimally smaller range, until only one exists.
This, too, is madness for mortals, but a poison all the more repulsive for how comprehendible it is. One can hate the Pit which birthed the idea of an ordered future and feel sympathy for the devil, such as it were, and link that common origin with the purpose similarly ordered souls uphold even unto this day and age, a link of common origin begetting understanding, and from that understanding mutual purpose.
An ordered or unordered afterlife is one of purpose, and beyond ordinary objective reasoning, that purpose is the fulcrum upon which each ideoform forges its link with the Sphere itself.
So what that means is, so too must forms we hope to forge have a fulcrum of purpose, and moreover, given its nature as linked to an engineered conceptual font of power, it must also not lose sight of its own origin, or it will cease to be one that orders itself based upon the needs of its guiding agents, slip away from its present edifice and raise or lower itself based upon the ultimate source of its limited perspective, id, ego, and super-ego, and the unattended needs of the souls that pass through it onto other realms.
-Lya the Sage
What is an Icon?
An Icon is a soul which, at its base, is regarded as one who is both a symbol, and a link of common origin to the Empire which birthed it. It imposes the order sought by that Empire by the composition of the Spheres surrounding it, and the greater collective will of its people are imposed by them against all that seeks to quash or manipulate it higher or lower and across the matrix of axiomatic alignment.
Fiends seek to corrupt, and Celestials might seek to save. An Icon will seek to impose and mediate with regards to the interests of an Empire, with ideoforms fit for both purposes.
Representing the varied number of beings from across the philosophical divide, and the passage of life and death from whom much of the Imperial citizens are subject to. These beings are larger than life, and for a reason, commanding the utmost respect from their subordinates but able to find common ground with mortals, for it is from the common link with an engineered edifice that surrounds them, the guiding agents of this waking dream ensure that the values of their contemporaries match their present purpose.
Individual beings who, despite their differences, nonetheless agree that the world in which they inhabited would be molded toward the whims of uncaring tyrants from distant thrones, unconcerned with the lives or collective will of its peoples. A present state of affairs that they sadly, or perhaps fortunately, depending on who you would ask, seek to eschew, with which to balance the concerns of both.
Paragon Icon; Alignment Varies
Unique existences which fit an ideal espoused by the collective will of the Imperium, or else considered useful and essential existences which nonetheless fall outside normal parameters for the system they inhabit, Paragon Icons are supernal followers of the state and fit the classification for 'one who achieves greater heights'.
Contrary to most Outsiders on the upper-end of power, Paragons are deliberately non-standardized, sharing similar physical traits to a degree but generally work best paired with a small group of their fellows.
Capable of covering each other's deficiencies and help them achieve greater success in their area of expertise, whether that be a caster assisting a smith in creating amazing weapons, or a warrior at the front made all the more deadly through the divine magic of their peers, seeking obscure knowledge to better help a spy navigate through treacherous pathways, or helping a diplomat find common ground with their counterpart from another Power.
Unlike most other Outsiders, Paragon Icons have alignments and dispositions stretching straight across the board without discernment toward any one in particular, but all find common ground in the overall vision of the Empire and will execute its edicts and decrees with extreme prejudice when called upon to do so, in whatever manner and by whichever means they are best suited toward.
The example given is basically the "Plug and Play" version of Outsiders where instead of having one example sheets for our Solar/Pit Fiend equivalent, we would usually make them the one type we didn't fully automate the process for (as we assume most Gods didn't when we encounter high CR Outsiders and DP gives them special Templates in lieu of spending more real time sprucing up their character sheet). The Harbinger, Dark Sister and Backfyre would be that.
- Location
- United States
There was an unofficial agreement that we don't want more Metallics or Chromatics like @egoo just said. But making our own breeds, especially dragons that have specific roles in the Imperium, was given two thumbs up.
I'm decently sure that the last times I brought this up, I got only vaguely "do not want" replies.
CandyCoatedChaos
Evil is just misunderstood
- Location
- You'd never be able to guess, eh?
That is a shame, more dragons are always better, well except for as mentioned the chromatic and metallic.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Just because a tentacle has tooth-like protrusions does not mean that using it constitutes biting. 🐙Were you recently nearby any bodies of water?
@Goldfish'es are especially bitey these days.
[
Buh for real, the only discussions dunking on dragon breeds were those about Metallics (duh, we don't like Bahamut) and Chromatics (duh, see discussion a bit before - no one's interested in remaking those. Even me. For real, I just added that b/c someone asked for Progress to compare stuff by).
- Location
- United States
It never happened like that. We're totally okay with more dragons if they're designed to mend seamlessly into the Imperium.
CandyCoatedChaos
Evil is just misunderstood
- Location
- You'd never be able to guess, eh?
Designer dragons, that's how you know you made it. Eat your heart out designer fashion, you got nothing on Dragons!
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
CandyCoatedChaos
Evil is just misunderstood
- Location
- You'd never be able to guess, eh?
/Pictures the mayhem the first time Relath notices one of his nobles prancing by wearing dragon-clothes.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Vestment Dragon?
I seem to recall someone put up a beer dragon at one point. I would totally OK that.
CandyCoatedChaos
Evil is just misunderstood
- Location
- You'd never be able to guess, eh?
That said I wouldn't be opposed to some day Dany skinning Tiamat and getting herself a new shiny cloak....
Edit: Beer dragon? I have no idea how that even works. But is wants it. I wants it bad!
Edit: Beer dragon? I have no idea how that even works. But is wants it. I wants it bad!
Last edited:
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
- Location
- E-Girl Deseret
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I don't know if I commented then, but I'll say now that I'm absolutely in favor of new non-chromatic/non-metallic dragon variants. Parchment dragons sound especially intriguing.
I'm decently sure that the last times I brought this up, I got only vaguely "do not want" replies.
EDIT: And Beer Dragons!
Last edited:
CandyCoatedChaos
Evil is just misunderstood
- Location
- You'd never be able to guess, eh?
I so want one fool to walk up to Relath or Amrelath holding out a tankard and impatiently telling them, well get on with it then, beer me.
Of course preferably this will happen somewhere in KL or Highgarden, you know, somewhere we don't care if it suddenly starts being on fire for 7 days and 7 nights.