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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Azel said:
That's way beyond "subtly different". The existence of a gunpowder like substance is pretty much guaranteed under any laws of physics vaguely capable of supporting solid planets. Also, we got Explosive Packs, which are functionally the same and pretty clearly a thinly veiled gunpowder analogue.

Also, I feel the gunpowder ban is a bit silly when we got explosives fired from cannons already. At this rate, I'm mainly not caring since we are way beyond simple firearms in many respects, the one exception being small arms, where we still need to do some research.
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Azel said:
Explosive Packs are already a somewhat superior gunpowder. The downside is that you need a solid casing for the liquid, since it explicitly reacts with air, but at the same time, it doesn't separate as gunpowder does, so those casings are viable.

Which means it's basically liquid cordite for all intents and purposes, neatly outperforming 700 years worth of gunpowder obnoxiousness.
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Fair enough, no laws of physics being tweaked, it just isn't going to be invented in the clasic sense, smiliar principles applied are fine.
 
Azel said:
Explosive Packs are already a somewhat superior gunpowder. The downside is that you need a solid casing for the liquid, since it explicitly reacts with air, but at the same time, it doesn't separate as gunpowder does, so those casings are viable.

Which means it's basically liquid cordite for all intents and purposes, neatly outperforming 700 years worth of gunpowder obnoxiousness.
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So what you're saying is, we might skip to 'all-in-one' casings?
 
Crake said:
So what you're saying is, we might skip to 'all-in-one' casings?
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Pretty much. There's no property in the materials that prevent us from doing so, we got plenty of cheap metal and we already have some experience in munition production.

That being said, we will still have to start at crew-manned, tri-pod mounted cannons. We don't have bullets and rifling after all, but using steel "arrows" in smoothbore cannons. I could see a full-metal, Hwacha-like weapon as a first step in that research tree.
 
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@DragonParadox if the goal is to stop things like modern firearms from dramatically changing the setting, but still allow for large installments like cannons, you could just tweak the defensive load out of the major planar powers to make them suboptimal. Juiced up Reverse Arrows, Bullet Ward, Bullet Shield , and Eye of the Hurricane or retooled versions of effects like Axeblock and Sash of Flowing Water could work.

If there's an easy way to stop small, fast, projectiles in large number that tapers off as their mass grows and doesn't effect melee weapons it'd justify why no one bothers using them. Even adding some secret known to most planar empires that just makes spells like the above cheap to enchant in exchange for a limit that sticks them to primarily nerfing firearms would keep the current system in play without requiring a physics shift.
 
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Interlude DCCCLXXXI: New Tales Told
  • Threadmarks
    • New Tales Told ​

    Twenty Seventh Day of the Second Month 294 AC

    To her surprise Rina found the wary looks and hushed whispers of hundreds of familiar strangers that seeped into the hall after her entrance less burdensome than she had thought they would be. Winter after all was not supposed to be approachable to all without a care, if you stuck your hand in a snowdrift you could expect a chill down your spine, unless of course you held such fire as the touch of ice could not extinguish.

    As she offered a formal courtesy to the King who greeted her warmly as a friend and began recounting the half-true tale of her heritage Rina watched Lady Melisandre out of the corner of her eye. How had she not realized before how similar they were? Not just in the fire they carried, but the utter conviction in their works and plans. One served a god, the other would make one to use as a tool, but both walked in the belief that at the other end of their chosen paths there was a better world and both would walk by shadowed paths to reach that light.

    "Onto this court more familiar with the works of high sorcery than most, I would wish to present once more a dear friend and companion in many a perilous and difficult endeavor. We welcome you back with open arms after your seclusion, Lady Rina..." the words were not meant for her, she knew King Viserys was not the least troubled by her change and was merely playing a part for the court, reading from some inner script. It left her alone with her thoughts in the midst of the crowd.

    What do you believe in, Rina Cox? She asked herself, looking at her pale reflection in the fine Lyseni marble underfoot. The question was not quite what it would have been three days past. Mortal men understood themselves by the stories they told in their heads, they fey were those stories, endlessly reinventing themselves with the whole world for an audience.

    So what am I then? She asked herself as she took up the thread of the tale, telling no lies yet speaking no truths in full. Am I just the mortar to patch over the cracks in the world? A task many had failed at onto their doom, yet something within her rebelled at the answer. Was it fey pride stirring, a Small God seeking her due, or was it more simply the girl who had been sent to the Silent Sisters and died there, refusing to simply define herself only by her service?

    The young fey would bow to the King and gladly serve under his banner, a leal vassal against all his foes, not just the Enemy of All, but that was not who she was. The story of her being was yet a mystery to be unwound as filaments of mortal mind froze into undying purpose, but that was fine. Rina had all the time in the world. She had only to ensure that the span would not be a short one.

    ***​

    Later that afternoon, once the business of the court was don, she met with the King, the Princess, and the Lady Lya on matters more immediate. They spoke in the shadow of the Godswood, the watchful presence of the Old Gods for a ward, though Alyn, purring in her lap, cared only that it was cooler and more comfortable here.

    "I must confess I did not expect to find myself in the possession of insight quite so intimate of the fey when I began looking into what our allies know of the divine. I don't think any of them were expecting it either..." she added with a smile that drew a small laugh from the lady, familiar with the at times reflexive arrogance of many fey when faced with mortals.

    Rina made a mental note to avoid that pitfall. "Unfortunately, the courts already sworn to the Empire do not know much of the inner workings of the divine on the scale the project requires. How to avoid notice, how to bedevil troublesome priests, and put a spoke the wheels of their faith that they know well, but of the deeper mysteries of the divine which we must unravel I was able to piece together the beginnings of only one, what is pact and what is prayer and how the two might work together to theoretically allow every stroke of the quill and document sealed to empower the Hollow God. In brighter news most of the children of faerie find the concept of such endlessly entertaining so I was able to simply trade marks for knowledge. Not directly of course, but it comes out to the same cost in the end."

    "Good, we still have a ways to go with the project of course, but it seems that new pieces are falling into place each day," the King said satisfied with the progress and, Rina suspected, with the fact that it could simply be charged to the treasury.

    Fey Lore 19/10 Complete: Lore Gained (Orphne Court): Prayer and Pacts (Unlocks research into tying the rituals of the Administration into the Imperial Deity's prayer)

    Lost 120,000 IM

    What next?

    [] Write in

    OOC: You guys did not roll well for fey lore availability unfortunately. The unmodified rolls were 17, 7, and 45 on a d100. Still, you did get a lead into a necessary part of the process.
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • BronzeTongue said:
    @DragonParadox if the goal is to stop things like modern firearms from dramatically changing the setting, but still allow for large installments like cannons, you could just tweak the defensive load out of the major planar powers to make them suboptimal. Juiced up Reverse Arrows, Bullet Ward, Bullet Shield , and Eye of the Hurricane or retooled versions of effects like Axeblock and Sash of Flowing Water could work.

    If there's an easy way to stop small, fast, projectiles in large number that tapers off as their mass grows and doesn't effect melee weapons it'd justify why no one bothers using them. Even adding some secret known to most planar empires that just makes spells like the above cheap to enchant in exchange for a limit that sticks them to primarily nerfing firearms would keep the current system in play without requiring a physics shift.
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    No, it's fine. I don't want to subordinate major world-building elements to this.
     
    Interesting, so at least we can start to create a way to bind our empire to a nascent deity. We are really close to having all the needs for a prototype soon
     
    DragonParadox said:
    Fey Lore 19/10 Complete: Lore Gained (Orphne Court) : Prayer and Pacts (Unlocks research into tying the rituals of the administration into the Imperial Deity's prayer)

    Lost 120,000 IM

    What next?

    [] Write in

    OOC: You guys did not roll well for fey lore availability unfortunately. the unmodified rolls were 17, 7 and 45 on a d100. Still you did get a lead into a necessary part of the process. Not yet edited.
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    @DragonParadox, so we can just continue into this for the next part of the research? Well that and/or ripping the knowledge out of Ymeri's corpse if we get the chance.

    [X] The Undeath's End: The secret of creation of the ancient and extremely potent anti-Undead poison you received from Faceless Men is lost to eons... Yet one of the greatest poison-makers the world knows is in your employ, and few other races have as much intimate knowledge of poisons as the Snake-kin, and the Drow, both of whom you have access to. Recreate the ancient mixture (Progress: 0/50, Cost: ??)
    -[X] Elaheh Marita (4d6 Progress), Quburn (4d6 Progress)
    -[X] And if the above isn't enough for one update...
    [X] Tireless Steel, by Sorcery Moved: The art of golem-making is ancient indeed... but one has to wonder if it is possible to wring an armor in the same qualities, to create personal defense truly unsurpassable. (Requires the "Layering the Defenses"-Research Action)
    -[X] Develop the basic chassis of the Imperial Powered Armor systems - and create the Warden Pattern armor. (Progress: 8/26, Cost: 140.000 IM)
    --[X] Valeria the Wondersmith (4d6 Progress)
     
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    BronzeTongue said:
    @DragonParadox if the goal is to stop things like modern firearms from dramatically changing the setting, but still allow for large installments like cannons, you could just tweak the defensive load out of the major planar powers to make them suboptimal. Juiced up Reverse Arrows, Bullet Ward, Bullet Shield , and Eye of the Hurricane or retooled versions of effects like Axeblock and Sash of Flowing Water could work.

    If there's an easy way to stop small, fast, projectiles in large number that tapers off as their mass grows and doesn't effect melee weapons it'd justify why no one bothers using them. Even adding some secret known to most planar empires that just makes spells like the above cheap to enchant in exchange for a limit that sticks them to primarily nerfing firearms would keep the current system in play without requiring a physics shift.
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    All of these elements could still be used as defensive measures by people who can afford them, but they shouldn't be made specifically cheaper just to obviate mass scale deployment of firearms.

    That has knock-on effects that you aren't considering here, for one thing, but also I think if someone is going to deploy magic to mitigate firearm effectiveness, maybe they should have to research and craft a spell for that purpose? And maybe the fact that you need a powerful mage to cast it, and it only effects a limited area (as most spells do) is a limiting factor upon it in itself? Viable enough for large scale warfare, able to deployed in significant enough numbers (as they have significant enough numbers of good mages) but not enough to make firearms worthless.

    The reason the planar powers likely don't deploy a lot of cheap drawn-to-scale solutions like firearms has a lot to do with deploying massive amounts of enchanted weaponry, having more mages overall spread throughout even the regular units, and there generally being no shortage of enemies who keep melee completely viable despite the ability to develop lethal ranged weapons. A human with a sword or mace is dangerous to another human, or things that generally don't have the natural or artificial defenses to survive being attacked with that kind of weapon.

    But there are warbeasts or fiends or elemental creatures that have limbs sharper than fucking swords who can carve through feet of stone through brute strength alone and they are often deployed in large formations and specialized units by various factions. And they all generally have good methods of closing distance with the enemy.

    The constraints that we operated under militarily which lead to the dominance of firearms in reality doesn't have to be the same in this setting.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    New Tales Told ​

    Twenty Seventh Day of the Second Month 294 AC

    To her surprise, Rina found the wary looks and hushed whispers of hundreds of unfamiliar strangers that seeped into the hall after her entrance less burdensome than she had thought they would be. Winter, after all, was not supposed to be approachable to all without a care. If you stuck your hand in a snowdrift, you could expect a chill down your spine, unless of course you held such fire as the touch of ice could not extinguish.

    As she offered a formal courtesy to the king, who greeted her warmly as a friend and began recounting the half-true tale of her heritage, Rina watched Lady Melisandre out of the corner of her eye. How had she not realized before how similar they were? Not just in the fire they carried, but the utter conviction in their works and plans. One served a god the other would make one to use as a tool, but both walked in the belief that at the other end of their chosen paths, there was a better world and both would walk by shadowed paths to reach that light.

    "Into this court, more familiar with the works of high sorcery than most, I would wish to present once more a dear friend and companion in many a perilous and difficult endeavor. We welcome you back with open arms after your seclusion, lady Rina..." the words were not meant for her, she knew. King Viserys was not the least troubled by her change, and was merely playing a part for the court, reading from some inner script. It left her alone with her thoughts in the midst of a crowd.

    What do you believe in, Rina Cox? She asked herself, looking at her pale reflection in the fine Lyseni marble underfoot. The question was not quite what it would have been three days past. Mortal men understood themselves by the stories they told in their heads, while the fey were those stories, endlessly reinventing themselves with the whole world for an audience.

    So what am I then, she asked herself as she took up the thread of the tale, telling no lies yet speaking no truths in full. Am I just the mortar to patch over the cracks in the world? A task many had failed at unto their doom, yet something within her rebelled at the answer. Was it fey pride stirring, a Small God seeking her due, or was it more simply the girl who had been sent to the Silent Sisters and died there, refusing to simply define herself only by her service.

    The young fey would bow to the king and gladly serve under his banner, a leal vassal against all his foes not just the Enemy of All, but that was not who she was. The story of her being was yet a mystery to be unwound as filaments of mortal mind froze into undying purpose, but that was fine. Rina had all the time in the world. She had only to ensure that the span would not be a short one.

    ***​

    Later that afternoon, once the business of the court was done, she met with the king, the princess, and the Lady Lya on on matters more immediate. They spoke in the shadow of the Godswood, the watchful presence of the Old Gods for a ward, though Alyn purring in her lap cared only that it was cooler and more comfortable here.

    "I must confess I did not expect to find myself in the possession of insight quite so intimate of the fey when I began looking into what our allies know of the divine. I don't think any of them were expecting it either..." she added with a smile that drew a small laugh from the lady, familiar with the at times reflexive arrogance of many fey when faced with mortals.

    Rina made a mental note to avoid that pitfall. "Unfortuently, the courts already sworn to the Empire do not know much of the inner workings of the divine on the scale the project requires. How to avoid notice, how to bedevil troublesome priests, and put a spoke the wheels of their faith, that they know well, but of the deeper mysteries of the divine which we must unravel I was able to piece together the beginnings of only one; what is pact and what is prayer, and how the two might work together to theoretically allow every stroke of the quill and document sealed to empower the Hollow God. In brighter news, most of the children of faerie find the concept of such endlessly entertaining, so I was able to simply trade marks for knowledge. Not directly, of course, but it comes out to the same cost in the end."

    "Good. We still have a ways to go with the project, of course, but it seems that new pieces are falling into place each day," the king said, satisfied with the progress and Rina suspected with the fact that it could simply be charged to the treasury.

    Fey Lore 19/10 Complete: Lore Gained (Orphne Court): Prayer and Pacts (Unlocks research into tying the rituals of the administration into the Imperial Deity's prayer)

    Lost 120,000 IM

    What next?

    [] Write in

    OOC: You guys did not roll well for fey lore availability unfortunately. the unmodified rolls were 17, 7 and 45 on a d100. Still you did get a lead into a necessary part of the process. Not yet edited.
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    Here's an edited version of the chapter, DP.
     
    [X] State Visit to Elyria
    -[X] With Rhaella, Oberyn and Elia.
    --[X] After your Herald announces you and your party, your diplomatic corps will facilitate whatever local custom of ritualized gift giving, among them minor courtesies like an Heirloom Seal for the most appropriate leader of the occasion, an Arcane Clock which keeps time according to the Imperial System, and an offer of setting up a MirrorVision system in a public space here in Elyria.
    ---[X] You will then step forward and ask for the customary tithe of earth and water, recalling Valyria at its core and a gesture that is pretty much unmistakable.

    @Goldfish Any gifts we could exchange that are thematically appropriate? Since you apparently just dig out thematically appropriate Wondrous Items these days... what are you even doing in there?!
     
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    Crake said:
    [X] State Visit to Elyria
    -[X] With Rhaella, Oberyn and Elia.

    @Goldfish Any gifts we could exchange that are thematically appropriate? Since you apparently just dig out thematically appropriate Wondrous Items these days... what are you even doing in there?!
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    I can't really find much info on Elyria to use as a guide, but we do have a couple things in storage that might make good gifts for a leader or noble there.

    What about a Heirloom Seal?

    We also have some Arcane Clocks and MirrorVision mirrors on hand as well. Either would be a nice gift for a city, IMO.

    [X] Crake
     
    Azel said:
    @Crake, could you also ask for a symbolic tithe of earth and water?
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    Crake said:
    [X] State Visit to Elyria
    -[X] With Rhaella, Oberyn and Elia.
    --[X] After your Herald announces you and your party, your diplomatic corps will facilitate whatever local custom of ritualized gift giving, among them minor courtesies like an Heirloom Seal for the most appropriate leader of the occasion, an Arcane Clock which keeps time according to the Imperial System, and an offer of setting up a MirrorVision system in a public space here in Elyria.
    ---[X] You will then step forward and ask for the customary tithe of earth and water, recalling Valyria at its core and a gesture that is pretty much unmistakable.
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    I have done so.
     
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