- Location
- Germany
Where do you get three from?
There is the Queen, active and of god-like power, the King, sleeping for now, and the Lords/Ladies of the Seven Courts, each individually dangerous but propably killable by our main party.
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
There is the Queen, active and of god-like power, the King, sleeping for now, and the Lords/Ladies of the Seven Courts, each individually dangerous but propably killable by our main party.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
There's supposed to be three, allegedly, the Queen, the sleeping King, and the Sage.
- Location
- Germany
Sorry, no singular Lord, just the 7 Courts beneath King and Queen.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Vote closed.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
@DragonParadox You know it always bothered me, just thinking back to that whole Tyrell interaction. I mean, I liked reading it, because it feels like Viserys was my spirit animal in that whole encounter where he was being super sassy to Olenna and Mace, and for once Olenna didn't sass Viserys back because things were looking... well, they were looking pretty goddamn dire. Not only did we embarrass them in the heart of their power, but we had control over that entire discussion, like the actual-factual King walked into their Keep and became lord and master without even asking--or even side-eyeing--the idea of them pledging fealty to us.
While their captor/guardian was standing right there.
So one has to think about the juxtaposition. Either the Queen is a terrible leader for these specific circumstances--which could make sense given her placement as a Sage rather than a ruler, but then who else but the Sage would have the wisdom and intelligence necessary to foresee dire threats and unfortunate circumstances?
Or she's completely incompetent, which is unlikely because her whole story, which is what Fey are down to their origin point, is being a hyper-competent polymath. Her base level is "I know the answer to that". Her enhanced state is "I knew the answer before there was a question."
So the final, more likely conclusion drawn--they purposefully ignored the threat to the people they promised to protect, somehow, not necessarily sending people who would guard them poorly, but not providing the tools and specialists necessary to prevent this purposefully.
Thing is, trailing the conversation with Willas, later on, which ended directly with Viserys (without much hope, albeit) offering to implicitly make all and any of the arrangements they previously made with the Fey, offering to facilitate trade for magic, to deal with problems the Fey couldn't (or as is rapidly being proven, wouldn't) deal with, and generally being mutually beneficial... with Viserys lampshading all he got was neutrality at the end of the day.
Azel cogently points out that all of these details line up with the Tyrells being fully aware of how badly they got screwed over by the Fey, and quite aware of how displeased we are with them, but also surprisingly forgiving for a person with all this blackmail and in a position of power imbalance over them, even if we have a legitimate grievance not even they had the cajones to deny our right to. And still wanting to side with the Fey Queen when it's finally time for the invasion.
Why is that so painfully clear, even now? Because they did none of those things. Even as we sarcastically, and then exasperatedly, pointed out to Mace and Olenna, and then Willas, that if they had just sent a letter or a "lost raven" to us, we would be all over that. We'd return their phone calls, even with all the bad blood.
I want to say this is you vindicating all of my irrational hatred of that damned family, but you also go through great pains to make them nuanced, so as is traditional, I second guess myself--this isn't just straight forward "they're power hungry and traitorous", it's more like desperation. When you are that far behind in the race, and someone is offering to help you get ahead again, and you stubbornly stay glued to the back of the pack, in a political and dynastic context it's insane to cling to ambitions. It's poignant in a way because Olenna and Mace are painted in canon as being down to the bone tunnel-visioned on making themselves royalty, even one step removed.
But there's gotta be a better reason than that. I figure, when you're facing the threat of most of your chief bannermen marching against you, and you're still bound and determined to go against the BBEG from the far east, and the Fire Nation finally attacks, there's more at stake for you than a crown, not when you have already conceded from the outset that Targaryen or Fey, there's a power imbalance in the relationship and only one of the two is offering to be 100% honest at all times with you, and hint hint, it's not the fey.
Edit: Just saying, Viserys reflecting on all of these, in hindsight, very obvious deductions at some point would be neat.
While their captor/guardian was standing right there.
So one has to think about the juxtaposition. Either the Queen is a terrible leader for these specific circumstances--which could make sense given her placement as a Sage rather than a ruler, but then who else but the Sage would have the wisdom and intelligence necessary to foresee dire threats and unfortunate circumstances?
Or she's completely incompetent, which is unlikely because her whole story, which is what Fey are down to their origin point, is being a hyper-competent polymath. Her base level is "I know the answer to that". Her enhanced state is "I knew the answer before there was a question."
So the final, more likely conclusion drawn--they purposefully ignored the threat to the people they promised to protect, somehow, not necessarily sending people who would guard them poorly, but not providing the tools and specialists necessary to prevent this purposefully.
Thing is, trailing the conversation with Willas, later on, which ended directly with Viserys (without much hope, albeit) offering to implicitly make all and any of the arrangements they previously made with the Fey, offering to facilitate trade for magic, to deal with problems the Fey couldn't (or as is rapidly being proven, wouldn't) deal with, and generally being mutually beneficial... with Viserys lampshading all he got was neutrality at the end of the day.
Azel cogently points out that all of these details line up with the Tyrells being fully aware of how badly they got screwed over by the Fey, and quite aware of how displeased we are with them, but also surprisingly forgiving for a person with all this blackmail and in a position of power imbalance over them, even if we have a legitimate grievance not even they had the cajones to deny our right to. And still wanting to side with the Fey Queen when it's finally time for the invasion.
Why is that so painfully clear, even now? Because they did none of those things. Even as we sarcastically, and then exasperatedly, pointed out to Mace and Olenna, and then Willas, that if they had just sent a letter or a "lost raven" to us, we would be all over that. We'd return their phone calls, even with all the bad blood.
I want to say this is you vindicating all of my irrational hatred of that damned family, but you also go through great pains to make them nuanced, so as is traditional, I second guess myself--this isn't just straight forward "they're power hungry and traitorous", it's more like desperation. When you are that far behind in the race, and someone is offering to help you get ahead again, and you stubbornly stay glued to the back of the pack, in a political and dynastic context it's insane to cling to ambitions. It's poignant in a way because Olenna and Mace are painted in canon as being down to the bone tunnel-visioned on making themselves royalty, even one step removed.
But there's gotta be a better reason than that. I figure, when you're facing the threat of most of your chief bannermen marching against you, and you're still bound and determined to go against the BBEG from the far east, and the Fire Nation finally attacks, there's more at stake for you than a crown, not when you have already conceded from the outset that Targaryen or Fey, there's a power imbalance in the relationship and only one of the two is offering to be 100% honest at all times with you, and hint hint, it's not the fey.
Edit: Just saying, Viserys reflecting on all of these, in hindsight, very obvious deductions at some point would be neat.
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- Location
- United States
I think a big reason House Tyrell will stand against us in the coming war is because it's too late. They've already accepted their gifts, sent Margaery off, made their vows, etc. They even still have the Court of Stars directly infesting Highgarden. We were too late by months if not years to put an end to that.
Of course when we beat them down and incredulously demand to know why they dishonored their agreement, they'll point out how they literally had their hands tied, and how while Willas is heir he's not in charge yet and agreements he made could be overruled.
Either way, I fully expect the Court of Stars to not let go of House Tyrell like that, especially during our invasion.
Of course when we beat them down and incredulously demand to know why they dishonored their agreement, they'll point out how they literally had their hands tied, and how while Willas is heir he's not in charge yet and agreements he made could be overruled.
Either way, I fully expect the Court of Stars to not let go of House Tyrell like that, especially during our invasion.
The whole Tyrel Fey plot really did not get all the attention it should have, thanks for putting all that down. I'll be sure to give it more attention in the future. One of the things to keep in mind about fey 'protectors' is that they are bound by the letter of their word, so if you guys did something unexpected they could not react as nimbly as mortals could
- Location
- Germany
Margaery is with people who will definitly not sell her out to the Fey though, and are propably the most capable in Westeros in stopping them from getting her.
- Location
- United States
Nimbly, perhaps not. Vengefully, however? You made a big show of how the Queen would not lightly abandon her Feywild 2.0 scheme, especially with Highgarden at its center. What would she do if the Tyrells broke their vow to her? Something they're keenly aware of.
The point with Margaery was that she accepted a Mind Blank ring from them and is rather indebted.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
I really fail to see how the 'letter of their word' BS would preclude them doing some very basic security procedures which even our nascent Inquisition is treating like a bible.
Yes, Garin is a counter-intelligence prodigy, and by necessity we have to make our protocols that good because our puny mortal agents need to have a comprehensive handbook to make up for their lack of personal power.
But I would like to point out that "strong, but unskilled" is a bad trope.
Yes, Garin is a counter-intelligence prodigy, and by necessity we have to make our protocols that good because our puny mortal agents need to have a comprehensive handbook to make up for their lack of personal power.
But I would like to point out that "strong, but unskilled" is a bad trope.
- Location
- United States
I've got to agree here, it's basically handing them the idiot ball, which would then call into question how we're supposed to take them seriously as the threat they're very much supposed to be. The Court of Stars is well aware that Highgarden is the literal epicenter of their plans. Obviously they'd take steps to guard their investment, including competent guards/wardens.
I'd be incredulous if the events of our meeting weren't made clear to the Queen, and if she hasn't already taken steps to threaten the Tyrells on the consequences of breaking their oaths.
I did not really want than to come out as unskilled, just outmaneuvered by the devil that got Garth, again I was only able to show so much of their plot with so much else going on so I think the narrative there suffered. Too much informed power, not enough shown. I'll be more careful of that in the future.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Really, can we wind that back and settle on "too much informed everything"? Because the character beats focus heavily on what we're planning to do, and this is good because it helps keep the narrative tightly focused, but at the same time, people don't just react to the things we do, and also, I would like to point out, even if they have their own agenda, those agendas also don't exist in a vacuum like ours do seem to at times.
I'm just saying, when we introduce new information to another character, like the Lord Protector in Mardosh, he shouldn't just stick to his previous plans, and vaguely account for our introduction, it's more like he would feel inclined to explain his motives to this new, dangerous actor, so that he could even have plans in the first place, since the mere introduction of ourselves to the equation could have seriously impacted them.
You keep trying to show "yeah, they got agency, they're fully realized characters" but only after the fact when they have made their final decision, rather than carefully painting a picture and showing all the way up to the decision being made when they make some grand action which is supposed to be dramatic.
The Fey Queen for example seems resolved to fight us, but yet we're supposed to believe she's not a malevolent force, nor have we done anything but advertise we enjoy talking our way through confrontations as opposed to blowing them up, despite being a Red Dragon.
So I can only assume this is you trying to imply people are scared of getting into a verbal fist fight with Viserys, because he is guest to a lot of information he shouldn't possess and no one knows how much he actually knows, which is ironic, but you never make that clear enough to Viserys in the prose, never make him take a step back and go "the reason people don't want to approach me, even if they're not evil asshats like Asmodeus who views me as nothing but a momentary obstacle, is they are worried I know too much".
These little details are desperately needed to make the story more interesting, it's more than just "character A reacts to B", it's like... you are showing how people operate. If you can't understand a character or why they behave the way they do, you don't really care about what they're doing. It's just another thing to blow up or talk at. That's why we're crazy about collecting canon characters, we're already invested in them and we know what they're all about, so when we interact with them, there is nuance.
All this is fair criticism, more than fair, but it's just the world is so large so details of characterization kind of get lost in keeping all the balls in the air. This is no a new problem exactly, I've done it before. I think it may be time to take a deep breath slow down the forward momentum of the narrative a bit so people can get some much needed characterization.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
What I am saying is, feel free to slow down, but also keep into account that what you are doing, tightening up the narrative, making it more controlled, less unwieldy, focusing on one thing at a time, that is good to some extent, but simply separating the interludes into their own self-contained segments is almost just about enough to make up for the fact that we keep losing track of what Viserys is doing when we did it the other way, and thus lose our own investment in what he's doing. You fixed that. Don't change that.
But also, maybe if an update needs to be twice as long to show Viserys' motivations so we can stay invested in him as a character, but also show rather than inform OOC the motives of people he is interacting with, that would make for a better story.
Ultimately, you keep chasing the ephemeral "three update" schedule, but this is unsustainable, not as bad as the wicked four update schedule you kept years ago, but still bad for the narrative.
Make some little rules. Two updates, in general, unless it is combat heavy day. And don't post past midnight, which might preclude getting that third update up. Maybe save what you've written and you'll have a headstart for the next day.
- Location
- Germany
@DragonParadox, the flip-side of that coin is that you have a rather noticeable habit of having characters cling to old plans, ideas and notions for the sake of "character consistency", but mostly it makes them come of as obsessed and fanatical, ignoring the world around them in favor of following their own pet ideas. For most characters it is either very easy to convince them of something or nigh impossible, with very little middle-ground. It often feels as if you are taking a specific plan or idea as part of the character, instead of the result of deeper characteristics.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
@DragonParadox The above is also incredibly ironic, considering all the plans the players come up with, modify, or even drop, just because we interacted with someone who changed our minds.
- Location
- United States
Melisandre and R'hllor come to mind as the ultimate example here.
- Location
- Germany
You mean we are not going to kill Burny for his rudeness in Lys?
Man, I was so looking forward to that...
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Burny is, by definition, a whole self-contained character arc which gained much needed nuanced due to a canon character being introduced who players were ultimately already invested in.
I'm just proving my point here. The story becomes better when you can understand what drives someone.
I'm just proving my point here. The story becomes better when you can understand what drives someone.
True and I think rushing though interactions may be the cause of that as well
Thanks for all the critique guys, moments like these are helpful for getting m out of a rut.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Has anyone else found that this site loads far more slowly on handheld devices, like a Kindle or smartphone? Specifically, it takes way longer to refresh a page than it should? It's bugged me for a while now, though not as badly as the recent change which makes you jump through hoops if you try to respond to a larger quote.
- Location
- Germany
I'd wager that the mobile version is badly optimized. SV as a whole is using far too many cookies and is loading a ridiculous amount of crap. With async calls and javascript.