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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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BronzeTongue said:
Or it insults the institution as a whole, and the rule of law in general. You don't get bonus points for doing the minimum to be a civil person. We could do bonus prizes for going above and beyond the call of duty, but I think anything like what you're suggesting will harm the culture we're trying to cultivate in the legions.
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So that means that we are already doing the best we can do? I don't want the bad PR from some of our Legionnaries doing stupid things. I want to reduce that to the lowest minimum possible.

EDIT: it depends on how you frame it. We can say "Everybody gets a bonus, but if we discover someone on your squad is guilty of a crime, and you didn't stop him, you get no bonus"

That better?
 
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Tomcost said:
So that means that we are already doing the best we can do? I don't want the bad PR from some of our Legionnaries doing stupid things. I want to reduce that to the lowest minimum possible.
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The legions were much younger then, and the idea of them was much younger too. They have more pride and more collective social pressure now than they did then. We need to show that we trust them, but also that we expect the best of them as well. That means punishing people who dishonor the service and raising up as examples those who bring glory to it.

You can't buy good behavior any more reliably than you can loyalty, but you don't need to with the right traditions and mutual respect. Telling them we think they need to be bribed into meeting the standards set for them by their nation, their comrades in arms, and their king will degrade them and the institution they're a part of.
 
BronzeTongue said:
The legions were much younger then, and the idea of them was much younger too. They have more pride and more collective social pressure now than they did then. We need to show that we trust them, but also that we expect the best of them as well. That means punishing people who dishonor the service and raising up as examples those who bring glory to it.

You can't buy good behavior any more reliably than you can loyalty, but you don't need to with the right traditions and mutual respect. Telling them we think they need to be bribed into meeting the standards set for them by their nation, their comrades in arms, and their king will degrade them and the institution they're a part of.
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How about this (I managed to edit it late)

Tomcost said:
EDIT: it depends on how you frame it. We can say "Everybody gets a bonus, but if we discover someone on your squad is guilty of a crime, and you didn't stop him, you get no bonus"

That better?
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You don't buy loyalty, but we can't also assume that all legionaires are here because of loyalty to the imperium. Was that the case, we wouldn't need to provide any benefits for them joining altogether. This would at least tackle the issue of the few greedy idiots who managed to get into the legion, by being policed by the other greedy idiots.
 
Tomcost said:
How about this (I managed to edit it late)



You don't buy loyalty, but we can't also assume that all legionaires are here because of loyalty to the imperium. Was that the case, we wouldn't need to provide any benefits for them joining altogether. This would at least tackle the issue of the few greedy idiots who managed to get into the legion, by being policed by the other greedy idiots.
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No, that's not better. I don't think you can get around the core issue of the way it comes off, and even if you can this approach certainly doesn't.

You're also trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. The legions are deployed all across the Imperium and have a stellar reputation even with regular contact with the public. you're not going to get 0% crime, and the people who'd be tempted to do it despite everything else about their social group aren't going to be bribed out of it -they're already the kind of people who think they won't get caught.

They are already fantastically loyal, disciplined troops who are fighting because they feel the call to dedicate their lives to something bigger than themselves. That's not the only reason they're there, but it's one of the core things they all share and this pisses all over it.

Continuing to grow that culture of service will do more than any amount of money could, so let's keep doing what works instead of leaning on the old school mercenary shit we've been working so hard to get away from.
 
I agree with everything @BronzeTongue describes. You do not see anything like this in modernized militaries. The ones that ascribe to following international conventions which dictate the treatment of noncombatants, much less the continually reinforced societal expectations to behave in a dignifying manner so as not to bring shame on themselves, 'the Service', nor their nation.

Firstly, because these norms should be the bare minimum expectation for everyone to meet so as to be so privileged to serve and represent that nation on the field of battle and in front of its peers, but secondly because it's the right thing to do.

I mentioned this before, but whatever standards we set are already the most extreme example of expectations anyone ever expects out of another person in society. Because there were no fucking standards. It's a medieval hellhole.

Before we and the Imperium came around, it was fucking borderline anarchy. There was no conventions dictating treatment for noncombatants. There were barely any enforced standards for treatment of any social class whatsoever except the political elite, and even that at times could be a polite fiction.

People should trust that these precedents we have set are ironclad and the people ensuring that they meet those standards should feel gratitude because everything was hell on earth before them. War is not pretty. Only those reveling in bloodshed and a sense of power it grants them would espouse otherwise, or the people who feel like the negative effects of war are outweighed by fulfillment of duty (which are usually the martial elite in any civilization, not the fodder).

Furthermore, we pay our Legionnaires extremely well. They do not need further compenstation.

Heroes deserve rewards and recognition. Soldiers are given expectations which absolutely must be met, or things begin to break down.
 
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There is also the simple fact that our Legion soldiers are basically living the dream from the perspective of any Planetosi warrior. They are very well paid, they eat well with no fear of poor rations or contaminated food or drink, they have top rate medical care that would be the envy of kings and emperors prior to the return of magic, and each and everyone of them is equipped in the finest non-magical gear, stuff that would have bankrupted almost any Westerosi knight who wished to purchase similar kit.

There are other perks, too, like being respected throughout the Imperium, a network of advanced roads and canals making travel throughout the Imperium easy and as non-strenuous as possible (not to mention the banner each Legion has that now allow them to march without getting tired), an actual retirement package which includes land they'll be able to own and pass on to their descendants, etc.

With all of that available, any Legion soldier who still wishes to rape and pillage is clearly too stupid to live and their execution will further decontaminate the Planetosi gene pool.
 
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Have we done anything with the avatar of Tiamat we killed with the Golden Company? I thought there was some sort of plan to make something out of it for Dany but I just her checked her equipment in Accounting and nada. Was there a better idea or something?
 
It hit the backburner. Lya is basically our artificer for all the special equipment, and we've been doubling down on using her every month for key research projects plus adventuring so that she can level up/have XP to make another additional Lya (for yet more research).
 
Destrark said:
Have we done anything with the avatar of Tiamat we killed with the Golden Company? I thought there was some sort of plan to make something out of it for Dany but I just her checked her equipment in Accounting and nada. Was there a better idea or something?
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A cloak or suit of armor for Dany is definitely happening.
 
Destrark said:
Have we done anything with the avatar of Tiamat we killed with the Golden Company? I thought there was some sort of plan to make something out of it for Dany but I just her checked her equipment in Accounting and nada. Was there a better idea or something?
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Current ideas that aren't going anywhere because we have Fey and Devils and Illithid and Reconquest and Qohor and all is shit:

1) Chromatic cloak/suit of armor for Dany.
2) Tearing off the 5 heads and having Quburn make... err, can't find the exact creature, essentially a huge dragon-knowledge archive wrapped up in uber-powerful undead shell.
3) Using the rest of the body to make a Soulforged Undead version of our Harbringer for shit and giggles. Further Undead templates are preferred but not needed.

Once we have Lya a bit more free... well, I'd argue to upgrade Datk Sister first, tbh.


@Crake, we can outright assign ~5 Erynies to halping the evacuation and infiltration. We have... 17, I wanna say? Unassigned next month.

[X] Crake
 
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egoo said:
Current ideas that aren't going anywhere because we have Fey and Devils and Illithid and Reconquest and Qohor and all is shit:

1) Chromatic cloak/suit of armor for Dany.
2) Tearing off the 5 heads and having Quburn make... err, can't find the exact creature, essentially a huge dragon-knowledge archive wrapped up in uber-powerful undead shell.
3) Using the rest of the body to make a Soulforged Undead version of our Harbringer for shit and giggles. Further Undead templates are preferred but not needed.

Once we have Lya a bit more free... well, I'd argue to upgrade Datk Sister first, tbh.


@Crake, we can outright assign ~5 Erynies to halping the evacuation and infiltration. We have... 17, I wanna say? Unassigned next month.

[X] Crake
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We can explicitly assign assets during the turn vote, I honestly expect more debate once we lay out all of our options... or well, I intend to debate it.
 
Crake said:
I honestly expect more debate once we lay out all of our options... or well, I intend to debate it.
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It may be me being sleepy yet, or you phrasing things, but I'm not really getting what you're saying here.
Are you arguing the "plan" I threw together? Because I'd rather get out arguing about it before we get to the turnvote, tbh.
 
egoo said:
It may be me being sleepy yet, or you phrasing things, but I'm not really getting what you're saying here.
Are you arguing the "plan" I threw together? Because I'd rather get out arguing about it before we get to the turnvote, tbh.
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I think I responded to it with most of my points of critique, so yes you are basically just too sleepy and reading into things.

As far actual debate goes, I was more talking specifics like where to shove who where, which isn't the same as "what should we do". Which I already made pretty clear.
 
Crake said:
[X] More reliable, untraceable methods of smuggling their most vulnerable out of the city through the auspices of the local Inquisition.
-[X] Coordination between them and the Inquisition, effectively focusing on expanding your information network and intelligence apparatus.
--[X] Rather than arming militants, you will be favoring freedmen and raising up business interests in Norvos sympathetic to their, and by extension your own, cause, will create small oases in Norvos free of persecution, at least to the degree that any sensitive matters they need to discuss can be disguised as regular movements and sensitive information can be exchanged and coordinated behind anti-divination wards.
---[X] As for the more direct assurances, you have not forgotten that slavery still exists in Norvos, and the people are suffering as all under the yoke of iron chains suffer in Essos. Promise that the twilight of the priesthood's rule is here already, but you are concerned, as you have always been, with the degree of suffering that all people free or enslaved might undergo if the socio-economic and political transition is not handled with care. As in other states, all those who have committed unconscionable atrocities, whether out of personal greed or due to ideological differences or in the name of a creed, will be brought to judgement fairly and swiftly under the law of the day.
----[X] Your advice is to keep the network tightly focused so as not to lead the First Axe into rolling up multiple cells one after another, and rather than focus on arming a slave rebellion, utilize the resources those bearing the Book and Sword provide to gather information. About the Priesthood, about the nobility and supporters of the Harrowers, their vulnerabilities and advantages which can be wrung by setting one group against another.
-----[X] Privately to yourself, you note that depending on her performance in the next few months with Imperial assets at her disposal, you might consider extending the Inquisitor's badge to her. If she can bring herself to act within the tenets set by the Inquisition, your agents here will report that information to you accordingly.
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What if our Inquisitors get caught?
Some will, if we do this for months.

But unlike some cases where they work, here we can intervene to safe them.
Will we stand behind our forces where we can?

Edit: Basically pull an America and force people to ignore our spying and supporting, by threat of greater escalation.
 
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Crake said:
I was more talking specifics like where to shove who where,
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Which is what the current plan is about.
I've included most of the people we have on one or the other of the assignments.
Assets like Erynies notwithstanding, right now is still the better time to overview the list and argue about people-placement, because during the turnvote you'll have your hands full enough with the strategic and economic stuff.
 
I'm a little surprised noone has mentioned this before: how certain are we that the underground movement we might support hasn't already been compromised? After all, the assassination wasn't a surprise for the target from what we saw.
 
XML4ever said:
After all, the assassination wasn't a surprise for the target from what we saw.
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It was the Axe that wasn't surprised, the Voice didn't notice the poison.
For this one case it's more likely one of the priests had a Detect Poison active than to suspect infiltrators.

If several of the resistance's future operations fail, maybe it is compromised. Or the priests are just better at divination than expected.
Doesn't matter much, we just need to gather some support and get to know the city, it's not like the resistance has to win this when we can soon invade.
 
Do we have Mel penciled in for something next month?

I have a...

I think things in novus are going to boil over sooner rather than later. We weren't subtle. To either faction.
 
Aesthetically, if we give Dany a hooded cloak, I like the idea of the hood being the red dragon "mouth" while the rest of the cloak is strips of the skin of every other dragon color. Sort of a rainbow topped by the symbol of the Targaryans.

EDIT: assuming that the Avatar had all the colors and that we manage to use all the colors in the outfit.
 
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Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jun 29, 2020 at 7:59 AM, finished with 58 posts and 11 votes.
  • [X] More reliable, untraceable methods of smuggling their most vulnerable out of the city through the auspices of the local Inquisition.
    -[X] Coordination between them and the Inquisition, effectively focusing on expanding your information network and intelligence apparatus.
    --[X] Rather than arming militants, you will be favoring freedmen and raising up business interests in Norvos sympathetic to their, and by extension your own, cause, will create small oases in Norvos free of persecution, at least to the degree that any sensitive matters they need to discuss can be disguised as regular movements and sensitive information can be exchanged and coordinated behind anti-divination wards.
    ---[X] As for the more direct assurances, you have not forgotten that slavery still exists in Norvos, and the people are suffering as all under the yoke of iron chains suffer in Essos. Promise that the twilight of the priesthood's rule is here already, but you are concerned, as you have always been, with the degree of suffering that all people free or enslaved might undergo if the socio-economic and political transition is not handled with care. As in other states, all those who have committed unconscionable atrocities, whether out of personal greed or due to ideological differences or in the name of a creed, will be brought to judgement fairly and swiftly under the law of the day.
    ----[X] Your advice is to keep the network tightly focused so as not to lead the First Axe into rolling up multiple cells one after another, and rather than focus on arming a slave rebellion, utilize the resources those bearing the Book and Sword provide to gather information. About the Priesthood, about the nobility and supporters of the Harrowers, their vulnerabilities and advantages which can be wrung by setting one group against another.
    -----[X] Privately to yourself, you note that depending on her performance in the next few months with Imperial assets at her disposal, you might consider extending the Inquisitor's badge to her. If she can bring herself to act within the tenets set by the Inquisition, your agents here will report that information to you accordingly.
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