The fact that I dont really care aside,

Let's be real:
This lore we are bargaining for is potentially worth Anu wholesale, let alone just his lore.
Imperial Deity is just too much of a priority, apparently lately.

Without the RA to mass-produce Warforged, it is overall pointless for war-based purposes.
And it's a hefty one even for Anu, let alone an outside researcher (45 progress)

It is, however, a fresh take on order-based soul-creation/transfer.
Something very much up the given Devil's tastes from what we've seen.

I'd really rather share this lore and guarantee the availability of the book (and maybe some other materials of his sold at the auction).

Anu can handle some of his personal project being spread around.
If the current offer isn't enough to sweeten the pot, I don't have an issue with checking with Anu after we explain the situation to him. It's not something we can do very well by Sending, however, and leaving Hellven to go speak with him in person would be conspicuous. Nothing says we can't come back to negotiate with Heronious later.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jun 14, 2020 at 4:08 PM, finished with 44 posts and 15 votes.

  • [X] Take the Infernal Pass (Greater ease in navigating Heaven's Shore; Enduring contact with Iradious; must dedicate a minor action at least every few turns keeping it)
    [X] Keep to Hassan
    -[X] Lore: Offer to share with Heronious the Flesh to Steel ritual in exchange for a copy of the information contained within the tome that was not auctioned.
    -[X] We are willing to negotiate further, if he does not consider this an adequate exchange.
    --[X] If necessary, we will provide up to the same amount we were willing to spend to secure the tome during the auction and as an absolute last resort we can make available some of Lya's notes pertaining to the creation of artificial Outsiders, though such an exchange will have to include more from Heronious than the contents of the tome.
    -[X] While we are meeting, discuss the possibility of acquiring copies of the other lore sold during the auction, assuming Heronious is willing.
 
I think that it will help up to shave research time, thus speeding our whole research into the Imperial Afterlife
Possibly. It's more likely in my opinion that it's going to help with making outsiders. That's useful, but not enough to worthy giving him anything he'd like. It's valuable, dangerous, and handing it out like candy is wasteful.

Frankly if handing over Lya's notes is the only way to get this book I'd say to leave it on the table. At the very least we should try other lore first. Trade some stuff from one of our bookified devils or something.

Giving out Lya's outsider creation note for this is like trading the basics of building a nuclear power plant for random notes on the life cycles of stars.
 
Possibly. It's more likely in my opinion that it's going to help with making outsiders. That's useful, but not enough to worthy giving him anything he'd like. It's valuable, dangerous, and handing it out like candy is wasteful.

Frankly if handing over Lya's notes is the only way to get this book I'd say to leave it on the table. At the very least we should try other lore first. Trade some stuff from one of our bookified devils or something.

Giving out Lya's outsider creation note for this is like trading the basics of building a nuclear power plant for random notes on the life cycles of stars.
It's more like giving him a primer on basic particle physics. Lya had to be quite deep into a specialty PRC before she was able to create her Arcanum. The process is highly dependent on the caster, and quite intimate in that the Outsiders created are similar to Outsider Simulacrums of their creator. Her notes aren't going to contain an exhaustive breakdown on the creation of Outsiders. At best, it could open of an avenue of research that would eventually allow Heronious to create Arcanum of his own, though they would likely be far inferior or more limited, given his lack of the Sage of Creation PRC and the nature of his unusual "soul".
 
It's more like giving him a primer on basic particle physics. Lya had to be quite deep into a specialty PRC before she was able to create her Arcanum. The process is highly dependent on the caster, and quite intimate in that the Outsiders created are similar to Outsider Simulacrums of their creator. Her notes aren't going to contain an exhaustive breakdown on the creation of Outsiders. At best, it could open of an avenue of research that would eventually allow Heronious to create Arcanum of his own, though they would likely be far inferior or more limited, given his lack of the Sage of Creation PRC and the nature of his unusual "soul".
I skeptical of that comparison. Maybe like giving lecture notes on basic particle physics from a renowned modern researcher to scientist in 1920. Is it harder for him to use? Yes. It's not impossible though, and the data would take great effort to come by otherwise.

edit: it's weird to me how the thread simultaneously acknowledges that it's valuable enough that he'll immediately flip his position to get his hands on the lore, but not that he could do anything with it or that we're overpaying when we could get it for other things and in other places without this. His goal is to replace the inevitable forge, he's maybe one of the few people who could use this stuff or pass it along to someone who can.
 
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It's more like giving him a primer on basic particle physics. Lya had to be quite deep into a specialty PRC before she was able to create her Arcanum. The process is highly dependent on the caster, and quite intimate in that the Outsiders created are similar to Outsider Simulacrums of their creator. Her notes aren't going to contain an exhaustive breakdown on the creation of Outsiders. At best, it could open of an avenue of research that would eventually allow Heronious to create Arcanum of his own, though they would likely be far inferior or more limited, given his lack of the Sage of Creation PRC and the nature of his unusual "soul".
I agree with @BronzeTongue, I'd rather avoid handing out Lya's soul lore if at all possible.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jun 14, 2020 at 4:08 PM, finished with 44 posts and 15 votes.

  • [X] Take the Infernal Pass (Greater ease in navigating Heaven's Shore; Enduring contact with Iradious; must dedicate a minor action at least every few turns keeping it)
    [X] Keep to Hassan
    -[X] Lore: Offer to share with Heronious the Flesh to Steel ritual in exchange for a copy of the information contained within the tome that was not auctioned.
    -[X] We are willing to negotiate further, if he does not consider this an adequate exchange.
    --[X] If necessary, we will provide up to the same amount we were willing to spend to secure the tome during the auction and as an absolute last resort we can make available some of Lya's notes pertaining to the creation of artificial Outsiders, though such an exchange will have to include more from Heronious than the contents of the tome.
    -[X] While we are meeting, discuss the possibility of acquiring copies of the other lore sold during the auction, assuming Heronious is willing.
 
Part MMMDLIII: Echoes of the Eternal
Echoes of the Eternal

Twenty Fifth Day of the First Month 294 AC

"Did you earn your papers of passage?" The note of almost grandfatherly amusement in which Heronious asks the question in is an odd contrast to his still infernal mien, though not as much as the cup of tea set in front of him with another at your end of the table. It smells like something halfway between mint and ginger, refreshing but with an unexpected kick.

You take a sip. It tastes even better. "Yes, the lieutenant in charge claimed to find my company pleasant, though I suspect there was slightly more than that involved," you laugh just a touch uncomfortably. It would not do so seem either too blasé or wholly naive.

"That is how it usually begins with visitors, after all it costs little to them and is worth much to those not of Heaven's Shore." A sigh of frustration passes his lips. "It is difficult enough to navigate the twisting streets even without the added impediment."

"It would be churlish of me to speak ill of my host's home," you reply with the sort of deliberate politeness that twists around into a jest.

From there matters progress to more serious negotiations. As a first pledge against the tome so dearly sought you decide to state the ritual for investing living souls a body of metal and gears you obtained from the Red Faith, much to Heronious' well hidden initial excitement. Alas it dims somewhat when you explain the limitations of those reborn through its power. Souls unable to shine brighter, minds unable to expand with new lore, fire contained in metal.

"A novel means of ensouling, and interesting motive and cognitive mechanisms just the same," the oracle devil muses. "Is there anything more of this ritual you can provide, base principles, a hint as to its origins? I have always found it easier to see the way forward when presented with a path, not a tool, and it is clear to me this is the latter, someone's attempt of making an durable army relatively cheaply from plentiful mortal stock. My intentions, as Eshhyr shared at the auction, are considerably more ambitious."

"There I fear I cannot offer much help," you lie smoothly. "I found the ritual intact in an old grimoire sold in one of the lesser shops of the Vault. It had, I suspect, escaped the gaze of less attentive buyers by virtue of being mostly filled with incoherent scribblings. I suspect the author was quite mad by the time they penned the tome and whatever they may have needed an army for was likely their end."

"I pity, a great pity, but so it goes," Heronious sighs, the expression far more thoughtful than when he had mentioned the city's roads, likely thinking of whatever path had lead him to such uncommon sanity for his kin. Awaking from his reverie with a start he lays down the book you had only glimpsed before on the table between you and gives a brief account of what is contained within just as you had done with the ritual.

The lore is all you had hoped for and a bit more besides, not just the sordid secrets of the present Lord of Heaven's Shore, thankfully. According to Heronious, the sheer breadth of otherwise little studied inner-life of those born of Law would be of great use to any mind healer dealing with such a patient. He had apparently used it himself for just this purpose on occasion, though he would not name upon whom.

Accounts of the Great Wheel and its Turning:
  • +6 to knowledge rolls dealing with the deep history of the Law-aligned Planes
  • +5 to all spellcraft and knowledge rolls to fundamentally alter souls (excluding necromancy)
  • +7 to mind healing rolls when dealing with Lawful Outsiders
  • Unlocks and adds 8 progress to Research to create Non-Elemental Outsiders
  • Unlocks Research and adds 4 progress to resurrect Outsiders
"Name your price," you say, struggling a touch to keep your voice level. Just because you are willing to spill not just a king but a kingdom's ransom for this does not mean you should be obvious about it.

"Five hundred thousand Glassteel Scepters in addition to the lore already pledged," he replies simply.

Do you pay?

[] Yes (Lose 1,000,000 IM)

[] No
-[] Write in counter-offer


OOC: The exception for necromancy basically involves everything that includes Negative Energy. Heronious has not worked much with it, though another part of his collection includes what notes he does have on it.
 
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The lore is all you had hoped for and a bit more besides, not just the sordid secrets of the present Lord of Heaven, thankfully. According to Heronious the sheer breadth of otherwise little studied inner-life of those born of law would be of great use to any mind healer dealing with such a patient. He had apparently used it himself for just this purpose on occasion, though he would not name upon whom

Accounts of the Great Wheel and its Turning:
  • +6 to knwolege rolls dealing with the deep history of the law aligned planes
  • +5 to all spacecraft and knwolege rolls to fundamentally alter souls (excluding necromancy)
  • +7 to mind healing rolls when dealing with lawful outsiders
  • Unlocks and adds 8 progress to Research to create non-elemental outsiders
  • Unlocks Research and adds 4 progress to resurrect outsiders
"Name your price," you say, struggling a touch to keep your voice level. Just because you are willing to spill not just a king but a kingdom's ransom for this does not mean you should be obvious about it.

"Five hundred thousand Great Brass Seals, in addition to the lore already pledged," he replies simply.
@DragonParadox, to clarify, this is an offer to purchase the Accounts of the Great Wheel and its Turning as well as copies of the lore that were already auctioned off?
@Duesal , if it makes you feel any better, it hurts me too.
In general Lya's soul lore really isn't something we should be casually considering for trade.
 
Echoes of the Eternal

Twenty Fifth Day of the First Month 294 AC

"Did you earn your papers of passage?" The note of almost grandfatherly amusement in which Heronious asks the questions makes for an odd contrast to his still infernal mien, though not as much as the cup of tea set in front of him with another at your end of the table. It smells like something halfway between mint and ginger, refreshing but with an unexpected kick.

You take a sip. It tastes even better. "Yes, the lieutenant on guard claimed to find my company pleasant, though I suspect there was slightly more than that involved," you laugh, just a touch uncomfortably. It would not do to seem either too blasé or wholly naive.

"That is how it usually begins with visitors. It costs them little, after all, and is worth much to those not of Heaven's Shore." A sigh of frustration passes his lips. "It is difficult enough to navigate the twisting streets without the added impediment."

"It would be churlish of me to speak ill of my host's home," you reply with the sort of deliberate politeness that twists around into a jest.

From there matters progress to more serious negotiations. As a first pledge against the tome so dearly sought, you decide to state the ritual for investing living souls into a body of metal and gears you obtained from the Red Faith, much to Heronious' well hidden initial excitement. Alas, it dims somewhat when you explain the limitations of those reborn through its power. Souls unable to shine brighter, minds unable to expand upon new lore, fire contained in metal.

"A novel means of ensouling, and interesting motive and cognitive mechanisms just the same," the oracle devil muses. "Is there anything more of this ritual you can provide, base principles, a hint as to its origins? I have always found it easier to see the way forward when presented with a path not a tool and it is clear to me this is the latter, someone's attempt of making an durable army relatively cheaply from plentiful mortal stock. My intentions, as Echyr shared at the auction, are considerably more ambitious."

"There I fear I cannot offer much help," you lie smoothly. "I found the ritual intact in an old grimoire sold in one of the lesser shops of the Vault. "I suspect It had escaped the gaze of less attentive buyers by virtue of being mostly filled with incoherent scribblings. I suspect the author was quite mad by the time they penned the tome, and whatever they may have needed an army for was likely their end."

"A pity, a great pity, but so it goes," Heronious sighs, the expression far more thoughtful than when he had mentioned the city's roads, likely thinking of whatever path had lead him to such uncommon sanity for his kin. Awaking from his reverie with a start, he lays down the book you had only glimpsed before on the table between you and gives a brief account of that is contained within, just as you had done with the ritual.

The lore is all you had hoped for and a bit more besides, not just the sordid secrets of the present Lord of Heaven, thankfully. According to Heronious, the sheer breadth of otherwise little studied inner-life of those born of law would be of great use to any mind healer dealing with such a patient. He had apparently used it himself for just this purpose on occasion, though he would not name upon whom.

Accounts of the Great Wheel and its Turning:
  • +6 to knowledge rolls dealing with the deep history of the Law-aligned Planes.
  • +5 to all spellcraft and knowledge rolls to fundamentally alter souls (excluding necromancy)
  • +7 to mind healing rolls when dealing with lawful outsiders
  • Unlocks and adds 8 progress to Research to create non-elemental outsiders
  • Unlocks Research and adds 4 progress to resurrect outsiders
"Name your price," you say, struggling a touch to keep your voice level. Just because you are willing to spill not just a king but a kingdom's ransom for this does not mean you should be obvious about it.

"Five hundred thousand Glassteel Scepters, in addition to the lore already pledged," he replies simply.

Do you pay?

[] Yes (Lose 1,000,000 IM)

[] No
-[] Write in counter-offer


OOC: The exception for necromancy basically involves everything that includes negative energy. Heronious has not worked much with it, though another part of his collection includes what notes he does have on it. Not yet edited.
Here's an edited version of the chapter, DP.
 
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@DragonParadox, to clarify, this is an offer to purchase the Accounts of the Great Wheel and its Turning as well as copies of the lore that were already auctioned off?

Is this the point at which we ask for other items he had, or the next updates?
I'd rather summarise the stuff if possible, we've been at this trading for... a while now.

It's just for this piece of lore unfortunately, It's really late for me and I did not feel like I could manage rolling tor all seven items properly tonight.
 
+6 to knwolege rolls dealing with the deep history of the law aligned planes
I assume this includes things like "how it was formed"
+5 to all spacecraft and knwolege rolls to fundamentally alter souls (excluding necromancy)
This is rad as fuck
+7 to mind healing rolls when dealing with lawful outsiders
Yeeessss we could use this to start attacking the malaise infecting heavens shore.
Unlocks and adds 8 progress to Research to create non-elemental outsiders
This will help with either making inevitables and or our divine realm servants.
Unlocks Research and adds 4 progress to resurrect outsiders
How is this different from outsider ressurection spells?
 
[X] Yes (Lose 1000,000 IM)

'Tis a bargain.

Seriously it is, Ol' Heronious has no idea how valuable this thing is to us, he could have asked for a lot more and made off like a bandit.
 
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