- Location
- United Kingdom
[X] Accept, speak to the Archmaester about Citadel politics he would know more than his patron
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
- Location
- Germany
[X] Refuse, you do not wish to make your interest in the Citadel known to any archmaester, recive Lord Hightower's account
I would really prefer the Citadel's upcoming dissolution to remain secret from them.
This guy is likely not in the Anti-Magic conspiracy, but it is likely that he still has some institutional loyalty to the Citadel as a whole.
I would really prefer the Citadel's upcoming dissolution to remain secret from them.
This guy is likely not in the Anti-Magic conspiracy, but it is likely that he still has some institutional loyalty to the Citadel as a whole.
- Location
- United States
Oh, he definitely has institutional loyalty to the Citadel. But nothing is changing the fact that the organization as a whole is coming crashing down.
Their very concept was pure insanity. Thousands of years before Aegon's conquest, men trained exclusively in the Reach were responsible throughout all the kingdoms of Westeros for:
1. Handling sensitive messages via raven
2. Healing the noble families
3. Teaching the noble children
4. Advising the nobility
One organization from one kingdom providing this for all the kingdoms. How is this not a recipe for total corruption?
Either way, we have damn near everything we need to replace them. The Whispering Brazier beats their ravens handily in communication. Our magic healing beats their mundane healing. Eventually our libraries will beat theirs. Our schools and universities definitely beat theirs.
The Citadel is going to be dissolved in due time, after we secure their books and make copies (while making sure none of the books were illegally altered in an attempt to mislead, Lya might have a stroke).
[X] Refuse, you do not wish to make your interest in the Citadel known to any archmaester, recive Lord Hightower's account
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- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Refuse, you do not wish to make your interest in the Citadel known to any archmaester, recive Lord Hightower's account
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
By now, I expect that the Maesters have been able to very roughly estimate the extent to which we have subverted the nobility of Westeros through observing the communications our lords have exchanged between themselves, what they have not communicated (compared to what was once common), who they have and have not been in contact with, and their interactions with assumed Baratheon loyalists. Even those of our lords who have been circumspect will have left some clues, and the Maesters surely have access to some degree of divination magic by this point. It's hard to imagine they haven't tried to use their continent-spanning intelligence gathering apparatus for this, especially since we know of at least one high ranking conspiracy within the organization which knows they've made enemies of us.
It would be very interesting to see just how much they've pieced together, how accurate their findings are, and how they are acting on that information. I just don't know how we could reasonably get access to that without trusting some of the Maesters, outright subverting some of them, or brute forcing our way into the Citadel and trying to find the information, if it is even accessible in that manner.
It would be very interesting to see just how much they've pieced together, how accurate their findings are, and how they are acting on that information. I just don't know how we could reasonably get access to that without trusting some of the Maesters, outright subverting some of them, or brute forcing our way into the Citadel and trying to find the information, if it is even accessible in that manner.
- Location
- United States
The above is precisely why the Citadel will be dissolved. Like hell we'd tolerate that within the Imperium. @Goldfish, I think they're aware, but they also don't know how to approach us. They know beyond the shadow of a doubt that we've pretty much replaced them functionally with our own messengers, our own healing, our own teaching, etc. They have nothing to offer us that we can't do better.
If anything the smarter move on their part would be individual Maesters breaking away from the Citadel and seeing if we'd let them join our Imperial Institutions, like the Scholarum, the answer being yes after careful revision.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
[X] Goldfish
There is quite a few things the Maesters can still do in our realm which would closely align with the Citadel's purported mission statement.
Mages can join the Scholarum, and the more skilled (and carefully vetted) ones could even find themselves teaching the art to students of their own, or else obviously turning it towards more tangible benefits to a great number of people.
Scholars can do the same, or even conduct state sponsored research in a great many mundane subjects, and the more progressive, forward thinking individuals would see actual results from the spread of that information, with parts of it eventually working its way down to basic curriculum depending on how fundamental to the understanding of basic subjects they are, which obviously can transform society in a lot of ways.
And of course no one who is trained as a healer is going to lack for work when public health and welfare includes a trans-continental system of healers who share information about diseases with each other and archive methods to combat disease and sickness.
And in a general vein, for the least ambitious or skilled Maester, no one is going to go hungry if they have learned how to read and write.
With all of that combined, the ones most opposed to the dissolution of the organization are those who are mostly or even purely in it for the influence they wield through it, and with very little having inhibited their actions due to the obscurity of such a conspiracy, these are the most corrupt, the ones most egregious in the abuse of their position and power. AKA fiend bait and chronic backstabbers who will probably be executed and hunted down for the rest of their lives and never safe in Westeros because the Inquisition's leadership is going to be aware of the conspiracy and tasked specifically with its eradication.
There is quite a few things the Maesters can still do in our realm which would closely align with the Citadel's purported mission statement.
Mages can join the Scholarum, and the more skilled (and carefully vetted) ones could even find themselves teaching the art to students of their own, or else obviously turning it towards more tangible benefits to a great number of people.
Scholars can do the same, or even conduct state sponsored research in a great many mundane subjects, and the more progressive, forward thinking individuals would see actual results from the spread of that information, with parts of it eventually working its way down to basic curriculum depending on how fundamental to the understanding of basic subjects they are, which obviously can transform society in a lot of ways.
And of course no one who is trained as a healer is going to lack for work when public health and welfare includes a trans-continental system of healers who share information about diseases with each other and archive methods to combat disease and sickness.
And in a general vein, for the least ambitious or skilled Maester, no one is going to go hungry if they have learned how to read and write.
With all of that combined, the ones most opposed to the dissolution of the organization are those who are mostly or even purely in it for the influence they wield through it, and with very little having inhibited their actions due to the obscurity of such a conspiracy, these are the most corrupt, the ones most egregious in the abuse of their position and power. AKA fiend bait and chronic backstabbers who will probably be executed and hunted down for the rest of their lives and never safe in Westeros because the Inquisition's leadership is going to be aware of the conspiracy and tasked specifically with its eradication.
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Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
I would be surprised if at least 95%+ of the Maesters aren't recruitable by any criteria we would care to set for them, at least as far as qualifications and lack of malice go, though there will probably be a significant number of those who cannot adjust to the new paradigm for one reason or another. For most Maesters, the Citadel and maester-hood aren't just a vocation, but rather a way of life, one which they've been steeped in since early adolesence.
Like @Crake just said, even those who we don't recruit or who don't wish to be recruited will still be able to find employment outside of our direct control. For example, plenty of wealthier individuals would rather pay for private instruction for their children rather than sending them to a public institution. Literate men trained in even basic mathematics will be in demand for business purposes, language instruction will become even more important as trade flourishes, etc. Basically, Maesters will lose their institution but gain another or go out on their own, but none of them should starve unless they're defective in some manner.
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- Location
- United States
I've got nothing against individual Maesters. It's the institution and its structure that has to go.
Individual Maesters might be pissed about it, but they'd still do fine in a post-Citadel world.
Jack vile Ripper
The swellest guy in Creation.
- Location
- Indonesia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I honestly couldn't give an ounce of deep fried shit about the Maesters or the Institution behind it. Y'all could sacrifice the lot of them to Baator or sell them to Heaven's Shore and I won't bat an eyelid.
What I do care about is the books. Don't let those sweeties be burned or damaged by some rotund, lazy old geezers. They deserve better. Like, sitting on our Library and be used by an enterprising young adventurer instead of picking dust in some deep cavernous bowels of the Citadel.
Can y'all do that? Save the books and knowledges therein in full completion, I mean....
What I do care about is the books. Don't let those sweeties be burned or damaged by some rotund, lazy old geezers. They deserve better. Like, sitting on our Library and be used by an enterprising young adventurer instead of picking dust in some deep cavernous bowels of the Citadel.
Can y'all do that? Save the books and knowledges therein in full completion, I mean....
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- Location
- United States
We're absolutely taking the books.
Jack vile Ripper
The swellest guy in Creation.
- Location
- Indonesia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
D'aww, thanks. I'll be sure to sacrifice a god or two in the name of the Deliberative for your action.
Vote closed.
Part MMMDII: Coiling Chains
Coiling Chains
Fifteenth Day of the First Month 294 AC
You recall Archmaester Ryam as a pleasant conversationalist, curious and insightful in the face of a changing world. Under most circumstances you would welcome a chance to speak with him, but he obviously believes in the worth of the Citadel as an institution and holds to its ideals. You do not, to put it in the mildest possible terms. Even if you did not have proof of a conspiracy against your House that may well have indirectly lead to the Tragedy to Summerhall and possibly had some part to play in the withering of the dragons, their habit of hoarding knowledge and learning runs counter to many of the policies you have already set in motion, not to mention personally offends Lya. You stifle a hard to explain smile. "Your own thoughts on the matter will suffice, my lord."
The young lord nods and sinks back into his seat, obviously choosing his next words with care. "The first thing to keep in mind about the Citadel, Your Grace, is that as an institution it does not deal well with sudden changes in the world, a natural consequence of being lead not only by those who are mostly aged to have studied to gain ring, rod and mask, but also in a collegial manner between them. A consensus usually errs on the side of caution over boldness, unlike the inclination of most lords who are expected to show bravery first among their virtues."
You nod, it seems a sensible assessment. Even a conspiracy to rid the world of dragons may have seemed cautious rather than reckless in the aftermath of the Dance when dragons had wrought so much ruin, and once the choice had been made and carried out maintaining the status quo would have been easily justified.
"So it should perhaps come as little surprise that in the aftermath of the Usurpation the general politics of the Citadel were aligned with the new king. Both Lord Arryn and Lord Lannister were seen as moderating influences and known quantities, and as for Baratheon himself..." Lord Hightower's lips twitched in a brief cold smile. "Well, I imagine it would rather displease him to know that he was not thought of much at all, certainly not respected by the archmaesters, most of which were quite glad not to be in Grand Maester Pycelle's shoes."
Good to know your assessment of Pycelle's power within his own order was not mistaken. "So then factions inclined to Tywin Lannister and Jon Arryn were formed."
"Among the more outwardly facing maesters, those who were directly concerned with the good governance of the realm and inclined to the policies they expected one lord or another to hold." Lord Baelor pauses. "Or at least that is how factions in the Citadel present themselves. If any of the measters involved held a more personal loyalty of a sort expressly forbidden by their vows I do not know their hearts enough to hazard a guess. That is one of the matters Archmaester Ryam would have been better equipped than I to expand upon."
"Understandable, my lord," you reply. "What are these factions, or were in the case of the late Lord Arryn?"
"It was generally understood that Lord Lannister would favor a consolidation of crown power after the mold he took in the Westerlands, though to a lesser extent as it was his grandson who would be ascending to the Iron Throne, all the more so as the boy proved himself more and more the Lannister in all but name with every passing year..."
You have no idea how much of a Lannister he truly is, you think recalling Varys' revelation before Bloodraven's throne. Though perhaps some in the Citadel do, or at least suspect.
"This faction, let us call them the Centralists, are lead informally by Archmaester Norren whose ring, mask and rod are electrum. His area of expertise is statecraft, politics as they say in High Valyrian."
"Economics and healing make statecraft," you muse, thinking of what you know of the metals maesters use. Not a bad metaphor you will grant.
"Quite," Lord Hightower agrees. "The ones most vehemently arguing against a Centralist agenda were lead by Archmaester Theobald, a historian by passion though his ring, rod and mask are lead for theology."
"The study of the Seven-Pointed Star?" you ask surprised. You would not have thought the Citadel would be inclined to teach such a subject nor that the Faith would allow it to tread on its toes thus.
"The study of all religion in an equidistant manner is the ideal from what I have heard," he replies. You are the only one who heard Ser Richard's snort faintly at the word 'ideal'. "Still, he is thought of as a faithful man as well as one who does not much trust the power of kings. His arguments often come back to the dangers of tyranny using..."
"My father's rule as an example," you guess. "While I certainly can't fault him that, do you consider him aligned against my House, or hostile to me personally by reason of sorcery?"
"I have not heard of him personally raising any concerns in that regard when Ebrose and Marwyn moved to aid the Lantern Bearers alongside other maesters inclined to the higher mysteries. He certainly does not like or respect Marwyn, but that is hardly uncommon for the man is abrasive and has rather dark rumors swirling about him. With the death of Lord Arryn Archmaester Theobald has been left somewhat adrift. There are rumors he might be growing close to the High Septon, though those could be planted by his rivals. Being subordinated by the Faith is one of the greater fears of the maesters and has been since the time of the Three Sage Kings of the Reach millennia ago."
What do you do next?
[] Ask more questions
-[] Write in
[] Join the investigation in the city
-[] Write in focus
[] Write in
OOC: Lord Hightower has an ear to the ground for Citadel news but it's not his primary concern these days so the above is not a complete picture of the factions, only the board strokes.
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Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Here's an edited version of the chapter, DP.
I can't help but feel we should tell lord Hightower what we know about the Citadel and the conspiracy in it. He just seems too confident of his grasp on what the Maesters get up to, and I think he may experience a very unpleasant surprise at one point. Being informed of the sheer depth of what he's unaware of should instill some caution.
On the flipside, we really don't want them to know exactly how much we know, so maybe don't tell him all we know?
On the flipside, we really don't want them to know exactly how much we know, so maybe don't tell him all we know?
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
[X] "I don't suppose you have some matter you'd seek my counsel on, my Lord?"
-[X] "I do admit that the concerns of the Lord of Old Town aren't precisely the same as the Lord of the Deep, but they are more similar than one would think at a glance."
--[X] If he doesn't need any other assistance, you will try to gather more information in the city.
---[X] You want enough actionable intelligence to start acting next month, essentially.
----[X] Then you'll move on to meeting the three Fey Courts you'd heard about, while Rhaella and her Reach group will meet with House Graceford as a formality, then House Caswell, House Costayne, House Cuy and House Oakheart.
-----[X] If she finishes with that before you have finished with the Fey courts, she will begin a cursory but cautious investigation into both branches of House Fossoway. You will personally handle House Leygood, House Serry, House Osgrey and House Rowan when nothing else can distract you.
-[X] "I do admit that the concerns of the Lord of Old Town aren't precisely the same as the Lord of the Deep, but they are more similar than one would think at a glance."
--[X] If he doesn't need any other assistance, you will try to gather more information in the city.
---[X] You want enough actionable intelligence to start acting next month, essentially.
----[X] Then you'll move on to meeting the three Fey Courts you'd heard about, while Rhaella and her Reach group will meet with House Graceford as a formality, then House Caswell, House Costayne, House Cuy and House Oakheart.
-----[X] If she finishes with that before you have finished with the Fey courts, she will begin a cursory but cautious investigation into both branches of House Fossoway. You will personally handle House Leygood, House Serry, House Osgrey and House Rowan when nothing else can distract you.
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