egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
3rd party is like that.
It is all up to DP to decide whether stuff is balanced or not regard;ess, in the end.
I'm just digging shiny shit up/.
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
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- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
It is all up to DP to decide whether stuff is balanced or not regard;ess, in the end.
I'm just digging shiny shit up/.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Huh. We might want to check on how they're doing at some point, especially with the conquest coming up.Two months. HEre's the last update with her:
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover In a world where magic has all but guttered to ashes, becoming the fare of charlatans, petty conjurers, and ragged illusionists, a mighty change is stirring. From small and fragile sparks a great blaze will be reborn and men will...forums.sufficientvelocity.com
Didn't Viserys have a desire to resurrect the Chromatic dragon races free of Tiamat's rule? Or was that my imagination?
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
Beyond the "hey Others, FFFFUCK YOOOOOU!!!" there isn't one, aye.
It's a considerably weighty one though, for all it's pettiness
I won't spill any tears if we can't/don't rezz them.
I'm more interested in growing our own breed of Super!Whites at some later point using the remains of these ones.
Just to screw with both Timmie and the Void.
- Location
- Germany
That was definitely your imagination.
- Location
- Germany
Dunking on our enemies is not a good reason to send Dany on a mad quest to the depths of the dreamlands, likely having to fight Void manifestations over the right to the soul of a Chaotic Evil asshole dragon.Beyond the "hey Others, FFFFUCK YOOOOOU!!!" there isn't one, aye.
It's a considerably weighty one though, for all it's pettiness
I won't spill any tears if we can't/don't rezz them.
I'm more interested in growing our own breed of Super!Whites at some later point using the remains of these ones.
Just to screw with both Timmie and the Void.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Fair enough. It can, admittedly, be difficult to keep personal preference and general preference straight when you've been absent from something for a few months. Still, even if we don't grab these particular guys, it would be really interesting and cool to do something along those lines, if only to flip Tiamat—one of our oldest and most vicious enemies—a massive bird.
- Location
- Germany
We are making the Myrkdreki this month. From the dragon corpses she supplied us no less.
Don't worry. Her blood pressure will be properly elevated.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
Mhm, fair, but I don't think the discussion really went that way yet?
So far, the vague starts of propositions that floated were "call these Wraiths, tell them we'll rezz them - and do that after the fight", not really that we'd gun for them in Dragon!Dreamlands spending IC-time regardless of if they agree here or not?
Aight, imma sleep now
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
I was about to point out that this is almost literally her entire Mythic Path's purpose... and then I realized tangling with the Void is a different kettle of fish from raiding Tiamat's hoard. Still, I wouldn't put it past her to manage something similar if necessary. Only, when necessary, of course.
Sure, but there's a difference between making new races and breaking the shackles of old ones, especially when we've got more than half of the five races already. Eh, what comes will come, I suppose.
- Location
- United States
If it were a simple case of just a quick interrogation and/or resurrection it'd be one thing, but these souls outright needing a fetch quest to pursue makes the whole thing vastly less appealing.
We're not trying to catch them all with Dragon Pokémon, and we genuinely do have more important things to do. We could straight up make our own better version of White Dragon if we wanted now that we'll have samples.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Hmm... question, would it be possible, since this is admittedly the most likely path, to make them different alignments as well as whatever upgrades we decide to stick on them? Like, would it keep them from being True Whites if we made them lawful neutral, or even lawful good? Is it even relevant to their nature as Chromatic dragons? Because while we can deal with more chaotic evil dragons running around, that would make things more difficult.
- Location
- Germany
I really don't think they have a choice here.
Non Free-Willed Undead, and we don't have anything near the Rebuke Undead power to take control away from the others.
- Location
- United States
Alignment is irrelevant. I was talking about Whites being morons.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Oh I know you meant that, I just wasn't sure, since I remember the Alignments being more than just a fancy note on personality. Honestly, we probably do want them to be good though, since having smart dragons with even a hint of backstabbing tendencies would be bad. Also, again, just to fuck with Tiamat.
- Location
- United States
You can have smart neutral or even evil dragons and have them not be backstabbing, "good" isn't a requirement for that. All it takes is self-interest and knowing that cooperating as a vassal of the Imperium is a hell of a lot more profitable than tossing their comparatively small weight around. Along with making examples of whatever few decide to go down the route of ill-thought short-term gain.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Sure, but ruling through fear and pragmatism, while effective, aren't really the best way to go about things, especially not when you can—and probably have to—decide their general temperament from birth. It would be much easier and simpler to make the sort of creature who would want to help out and better the Imperium because it's actually good, than because it happens to be the most profitable option.
- Location
- United States
That's a mindset we've been actively moving away from for more than a year now. Alignment is not how we want to be prioritizing these things. It took us forever to get rid of adhering to that stupid system.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
*Facepalm* Look, I'm not... prioritizing it, or whatever, just saying that if we have a choice about nice dragons, meh dragons, or asshole dragons, we might as well take the first option. Sure, if it took some special research or actual effort I'd agree that it's not really important, but if all it takes is writing one word instead of another on whatever upgraded stat block we create, I don't see a reason not to. Unless you want to have to put effort into framing things just right for baby dragons to actually be interested in serving us?
- Location
- United States
I'm saying it doesn't matter what their alignment is, and the dragons being made good isn't some magic key to them cooperating. Good or evil, it won't be hard to convince a dragon we literally created to work for us, nor will it be hard to convince their offspring, etc. They're dragons, they'll take a good employment offer from a much stronger dragon and start raking in that cash.
A better route is making them more social than most dragons and more amenable to a high amount of interaction and cooperation with mortals rather than recluses by nature.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Okay, clearly we're not communicating properly. You're right, alignment isn't all essential, and we could theoretically convince any new Whites to serve us regardless. My point is that however true that might be, they will have an alignment, just as a result of being thinking creatures. Whoever ends up doing the Forge-magic or whatever to create them will still have to program their personalities, however indifferent we might be, especially if they'll be mucking about with the intellect. And since something will need to go in that alignment slot, I suggest Good, plain and simple. The specifics of how that works will, of course, be more complicated, as with any intelligent being, let alone race, but in the meantime it's a good base to start off with, and one we would need anyways. Social and cooperative natures would be a more in-depth progression, and while I do approve, that's beside the point I was trying to make.
- Location
- United States
I know what you're saying, I just disagree with it. I don't think we need to stick with good at all to the level you're suggesting. It's not necessary for a forge creature's cooperation and fealty, and it's not necessary for them to follow our laws. We can have neutral or downright evil vassals and have them fit perfectly fine in the Imperium. They don't need to go around altruistically helping random people, they just need to fall in line.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
...okay then. Now we do have some problems. One, you do realize how dictatorial and nearly slave-mastering you sound right now, right? Because that's right on the edge of that, and given Viserys's hatred of slavery, I feel the need to point it out.
Two, you disagree with the fact that a living thinking being has to have some base alignment, no matter what it is? Really? Or just that we should completely avoid the concept of Good altogether and stick completely with Evil and Neutral creations, in which case do you have a particular reason for favoring those alignments over Good beyond a dislike for "altruistically helping random people"? Which, I feel I should point out, is not only not necessary for Good people and a gross over-exaggeration, but also something that Viserys does on a semi-regular basis himself at times despite being neutral.
So, either your entire argument about alignment not mattering falls apart, or you admit that you aren't interested either way and let the people who do care—however little it may be—have fun deciding when we get around to doing it. You can't have it both ways.
- Location
- Germany
@Ericwinter, you are pushing for a given alignment. People here are very allergic to that. Especially when you are peddling "Good is obviously superior and everything should be Good".
- Location
- United States
What the hell?
"Fall in line" means obey the law. That isn't anywhere close to slavery, and I'm outright baffled that's where you went with this.
I think you've misunderstood my argument on a fundamental level.
You want good creatures because you believe they'll best fit as vassals, right? And that they'll somehow be superior to neutral or evil vassals in that regard? I was disagreeing with that. I don't have anything against good, I have something against the notion that we need to rigidly adhere to making good dragons, that we couldn't vassalize neutral and evil dragons just fine.
Alignment unfortunately does exist, but it doesn't rule a creature or a species. Evil can be cooperated with and motivated by self interest. Good can be uncompromising and self-righteous.
Alignment doesn't matter when it comes to recruitment, and it doesn't matter when it comes to the laws. Evil dragons would obey the laws out of self interest, and good dragons would obey because they're good laws. And both would be motivated by money, because they're dragons. It's the same net result in the end.
As for your complaint about my comment on altruism, I wasn't randomly taking that from nowhere, that was a direct response you saying the following as a reason to go for good:
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
... *deep breath* okay, let me be very clear, because apparently the first several times I said it wasn't obvious enough. I'm not saying that good is superior or that everything should be good. Merely that where we have a choice that will need to be made—unless you dispute the fact that alignment is in fact a thing every creature has?—my personal preference would be good, at least and especially in regards to dragons where their other racial natures combined with less friendly personalities would require certain allowances and rationalization to be made if we want to retain their allegiance. If people wish to abstain from an opinion on the topic, that's fine, as long as they actually abstain, and don't try to argue against particular preferences, at which point there is a clear bias and they should present themselves as such. Unless this thread allows for the immediate shutdown of topics by non-OP participators because they don't like them? (No seriously, if that's a standing rule I'll leave off, but find it very hard to believe).
Good dragons, specifically. I actually quite like our Less moral vassals and fully accept and even support their necessity for certain tasks that Good characters would be unable to stomach. Dragons on the other hand have far too many other racial traits that would force us to maintain a constant appearance of strength and, as above, make more allowances.
As for the rest, I would agree... if we weren't explicitly creating this race, almost completely from scratch. Sure, any dragon we come across in the wild, I wouldn't even touch the subject of their alignment, except maybe in cautioning against certain methods of handling them. But these, we will have a hand in creating and designing from the very beginning, with a simple choice that will be needed every time we make them. Just as you see no reason to adhere strictly to Good, I see no reason to diversify, especially not when I believe Good Dragons would be easier to handle than Evil or neutral ones and it would take us purposefully doing so.
Fair, but I could also point out that the main part of my statement was "help out and better the Imperium". Personally, I see zero problem with any dragons we make having even more incentive to be good vassals and do what we need than pure self-interest, which will almost certainly not apply to every situation, or even a majority of them.
I'll admit I may have overreacted somewhat, but to explain my reaction, it was two things. One was the heavy and repetitive influence of the term "it's not necessary" combined with calling them a slightly demeaning "forge beasts", which struck a vivid image of how many slavers will tell their slaves anything not related to their work is "unnecessary", or dehumanize them, in an attempt to prevent them from even imagining escape or another life as possible. The second was specifically your comparison between "going around to altruistically help other people" which seemed a massive trivialization of basically any form of good deed, with "falling in line". Together, it generally created a sense of "their entire being should be dedicated to the Empire and it's laws with no need for free time or personal pursuits". Hence why I said it was on the edge of slavery, rather than outright accusing you of full slave-mongering.What the hell?
"Fall in line" means obey the law. That isn't anywhere close to slavery, and I'm outright baffled that's where you went with this.