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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Ericwinter said:
...we have literal demons and devils, not to mention people like Qyburn and the Bolton's as our vassals. I think we can handle a Black dragon.
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I don't think it's reasonable to use our people as low after marks to justify bringing in more questionable people. If we can make it work then great, but people aren't equally risky (or vile for that matter) just because they rest on similar rungs of a nebulous moral ladder.

A daemon roughly as old and powerful as an Erinyes, for example, isn't really equal to one in temperament or risk as a vassal. We should judge on a case by case basis instead of justifying more and more extreme recruitments based on what is essentially the slippery slope argument.
 
I for one prefer to hire by utility. Qyburn is very high utility. Erinyes are high utility. Daemons are low-utility. Therefore, Daemons are fertilizer, not minions.

And one the note of Black Dragons, I'd like to point out that this is the month where we are making a kind-of Black Dragon species.
 
BronzeTongue said:
I don't think it's reasonable to use our people as low after marks to justify bringing in more questionable people. If we can make it work then great, but people aren't equally risky (or vile for that matter) just because they rest on similar rungs of a nebulous moral ladder.

A daemon roughly as old and powerful as an Erinyes, for example, isn't really equal to one in temperament or risk as a vassal. We should judge on a case by case basis instead of justifying more and more extreme recruitments based on what is essentially the slippery slope argument.
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The point I was trying to make is that Blacks are actually likely to be less vile or risky than the people we have already picked up and found ways to manage. Viserys has a very clear line of people either being useful to society one way, or useful in another, usually as fodder. Black Dragons would be useful, just like Qyburn and the Bolton's are useful, and neither are inherently dangerous. You just have to use them correctly.
It's a balance, basically. If we can get Qyburn to follow certain rules under our employ, the same should be true for Black Dragons, and their usefulness makes the effort worth it. If not, there's always the forges.
 
Here's Nirah's anti-Others spell loadout, specifically designed to defend against the Undead and to fuck them over hardcore, because being prepared is what makes Clerics and Wizards so bullshit.

Nirah's Prepared Divine Spells:
Level 0: (6/day): Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Light, Mending, Message, Read Magic
Level 1: (4+3/day): Barbed Serpent Chains, Clarion Call, Conviction, Divine Favor, Entropic Shield, Shield of Faith, Sign
Level 2: (4+3/day): Augury, Boneshaker, Close Wounds x2, Divine Insight, Ironskin, Resist Energy
Level 3: (4+2/day): Alter Fortune, Battlemagic Perception, Greater Hide from Undead, Mass Resist Energy, Searing Light, Venomfire
Level 4: (4+2/day): Assay Spell Resistance, Burst With Light, Celestial Brilliance x2, Divine Power, Panacea
Level 5: (4+2/day): Caustic Blood, Life's Grace, Revivify, Righteous Might, True Seeing, Undeath Ward
Level 6: (3+2/day): Ghost Trap, Greater Dispel Magic, Heal, Undead to Death, Wind Walk
Level 7: (2+1/day): Morning Sun, Regenerate, Sunbeam
Level 8: (1+1/day): Nine Lives, Sunburst
 
Ericwinter said:
The point I was trying to make is that Blacks are actually likely to be less vile or risky than the people we have already picked up and found ways to manage. Viserys has a very clear line of people either being useful to society one way, or useful in another, usually as fodder. Black Dragons would be useful, just like Qyburn and the Bolton's are useful, and neither are inherently dangerous. You just have to use them correctly.
It's a balance, basically. If we can get Qyburn to follow certain rules under our employ, the same should be true for Black Dragons, and their usefulness makes the effort worth it. If not, there's always the forges.
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That might work out in this particular case, I just wanted to point out that using our evil minions as a low water mark to justify ever crazier new hires is a bad idea. That line of reasoning comes up all the time and it isn't a valid one.

Their ability and willingness to follow our standards is more important than how nasty anyone currently working for us is, and the methods for handling one type of crazy don't necessarily translate to other varieties.

We can probably handle a black dragon; but the number of peasants Qyburn has vivisected, or whatever he got up to when not looting graves, and the methods we use to stop him from doing so again don't make one more manageable than it would otherwise have been and they certainly don't make it hypocritical to pass up something on the basis of being too harmful to be useful.

Also @Goldfish, we should add someEtheric Shards to the areas around the wardstones if we can pull it off. Nothing says "fuck off" quite like fields of invisible transdimensional razor blades.
 
Goldfish said:
Here's Nirah's anti-Others spell loadout, specifically designed to defend against the Undead and to fuck them over hardcore, because being prepared is what makes Clerics and Wizards so bullshit.

Nirah's Prepared Divine Spells:
Level 0: (6/day): Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Light, Mending, Message, Read Magic
Level 1: (4+3/day): Barbed Serpent Chains, Clarion Call, Conviction, Divine Favor, Entropic Shield, Shield of Faith, Sign
Level 2: (4+3/day): Augury, Boneshaker, Close Wounds x2, Divine Insight, Ironskin, Resist Energy
Level 3: (4+2/day): Alter Fortune, Battlemagic Perception, Greater Hide from Undead, Mass Resist Energy, Searing Light, Venomfire
Level 4: (4+2/day): Assay Spell Resistance, Burst With Light, Celestial Brilliance x2, Divine Power, Panacea
Level 5: (4+2/day): Caustic Blood, Life's Grace, Revivify, Righteous Might, True Seeing, Undeath Ward
Level 6: (3+2/day): Ghost Trap, Greater Dispel Magic, Heal, Undead to Death, Wind Walk
Level 7: (2+1/day): Morning Sun, Regenerate, Sunbeam
Level 8: (1+1/day): Nine Lives, Sunburst
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Fantastic.

They're literally going to evaporate under the force of his fury.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Also @Goldfish, we should add some Etheric Shards to the areas around the wardstones if we can pull it off. Nothing says "fuck off" quite like fields of invisible transdimensional razor blades.
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Unfortunately, that's not a spell Nirah could have prepared and we're not positioned properly to place them ourselves, and probably wouldn't have time to do it even if we were.

Before @DragonParadox closes the vote, I want to get a better idea of his positioning in relation to the Ward Anchors. If he's close enough to one of them, he could easily drop a Celestial Brilliance and Morning Sun on one of the anchors before moving on to Thennhold. That could reduce the pressure on those defending that anchor by a good amount.
 
Goldfish said:
Unfortunately, that's not a spell Nirah could have prepared and we're not positioned properly to place them ourselves, and probably wouldn't have time to do it even if we were.

Before @DragonParadox closes the vote, I want to get a better idea of his positioning in relation to the Ward Anchors. If he's close enough to one of them, he could easily drop a Celestial Brilliance and Morning Sun on one of the anchors before moving on to Thennhold. That could reduce the pressure on those defending that anchor by a good amount.
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Where is Viserys again? For some reason I thought he was with the main group since he didn't head off to eat a tree.
 
Ericwinter said:
Can't we teleport straight back or something?
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No, we can't.

Teleporting or Planeshifing anywhere Beyond the Wall runs up against the Builder's Anchor. And while we could boost our CL to be above 20, it's not worth it to do so right before a major fight where we're probably up against a surprise Other or Frost Dragon or whatever the fuck else is hiding in that blizzard.
 
Ericwinter said:
Can't we teleport straight back or something?
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The Wall is the focus of a ritual spell effect called the Builder's Anchor which affects everything north of it, preventing any Teleportation type spell of 5th level or higher from functioning. That's why Viserys and the others are flying back instead.

EDIT: Magpie Faceless'd 🦅(He's wearing an eagle's face!)
 
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BronzeTongue said:
I'd be kind of surprised if the others didn't drop something nasty on Viserys since he isn't with the fleet. This particular encounter is incorporeal heavy, and they hate us, so something like a Shadow of the Void with an group of low grade minions to soak damage for it?
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Would they even be able to spare more power after this? The current attack is a lot, and chances are they've got at least one other monster we haven't seen leading the assault. Also, how would they even know where we are? We, technically, weren't messing with their shit.
Duesal said:
No, we can't.

Teleporting or Planeshifing anywhere Beyond the Wall runs up against the Builder's Anchor. And while we could boost our CL to be above 20, it's not worth it to do so right before a major fight where we're probably up against a surprise Other or Frost Dragon or whatever the fuck else is hiding in that blizzard.
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Goldfish said:
The Wall is the focus of a ritual spell effect called the Builder's Anchor which affects everything north of it, preventing any Teleportation type spell of 5th level or higher from functioning. That's why Viserys and the others are flying back instead.
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Ah, right, forgot about that. kinda weird that it keeps you from teleporting around in the North, and not just acts as a barrier against passing the Wall, but ah well.
 
Ericwinter said:
Ah, right, forgot about that. kinda weird that it keeps you from teleporting around in the North, and not just acts as a barrier against passing the Wall, but ah well.
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That's the main effect it has on everyone except for the Others. We aren't sure of the exact details, but it apparently hampers the Others and their minions a great deal more than that. The Others themselves are largely trapped North of the Wall, in the Land of Always Winter in particular, and cannot leave by other means, not to travel to another Plane then return to Planetos in a different location, or even to simply abandon the planet for a new place to sow death, destruction, and endless Winter. It also makes it much more difficult for them to exert any power South of the Wall while limiting the numbers of minions who can slip by it and the amount of power they can have.
 
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Goldfish said:
That's the main effect it has on everyone except for the Others. We aren't sure of the exact details, but it apparently hampers the Others and their minions a great deal more than that. The Others themselves are largely trapped North of the Wall, in the Land of Always Winter in particular, and cannot leave by other means, not to travel to another Plane then return to Planetos in a different location, or even to simply abandon the planet for a new place to sow death, destruction, and endless Winter. It also makes it much more difficult for them to exert any power South of the Wall while limiting the numbers of minions who can slip by it and the amount of power they can have.
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So it's a snare, not a shield. That makes more sense. Still a little weird, but magic tends to do that I guess.
 
Ericwinter said:
Would they even be able to spare more power after this? The current attack is a lot, and chances are they've got at least one other monster we haven't seen leading the assault. Also, how would they even know where we are? We, technically, weren't messing with their shit.
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I might be wrong on this, but I thought all the places we were investigating were all void touched to some extent. If Viserys is in a place that belongs to them they could have a chance to notice him.

On the resource end, they aren't exactly hurting for numbers - even for powerful minions. The cost for them is that the OG get to act on the same general level of strength. The fact that they're acting at all shows they're willing to give a lot to screw us over, and if they could kill or cripple Viserys it'd be worth letting the OG exert more power.
 
BronzeTongue said:
I might be wrong on this, but I thought all the places we were investigating were all void touched to some extent. If Viserys is in a place that belongs to them they could have a chance to notice him.

On the resource end, they aren't exactly hurting for numbers - even for powerful minions. The cost for them is that the OG get to act on the same general level of strength. The fact that they're acting at all shows they're willing to give a lot to screw us over, and if they could kill or cripple Viserys it'd be worth letting the OG exert more power.
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I could have sworn this was essentially the Others getting their "reaction", as it were:

DragonParadox said:
OOC: You guys pissed off the Others good and proper and of course your 'dishonorable conduct' is cause for them to 'seek restitution'. After all you could have not destroyed the arch, returned the sword to them and not destroyed the false weirwood, right?
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Basically we screwed with them, so they get to screw with us back, but are constrained by the level of damage we dealt. So the OG won't get to respond, but we were doing this explicitly to bleed them of resources anyways, so we don't mind. I think at least.
 
Ericwinter said:
Basically we screwed with them, so they get to screw with us back, but are constrained by the level of damage we dealt. So the OG won't get to respond, but we were doing this explicitly to bleed them of resources anyways, so we don't mind. I think at least.
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Not really. We pissed them off right and proper but we are still an outside party. The Old Gods- Others equation is still in effect. Them reacting like this means the Olds Gods can slap right back...just as hard.
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
Not really. We pissed them off right and proper but we are still an outside party. The Old Gods- Others equation is still in effect. Them reacting like this means the Olds Gods can slap right back...just as hard.
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You sure? Those quotation marks seem to be implying they invoked the mystical rules to throw this at us without recourse, since the Others don't really need us pissing them off to try something. Granted, I might be overthinking it, but I expect DP would've worded it differently in that case.
 
Ericwinter said:
You sure? Those quotation marks seem to be implying they invoked the mystical rules to throw this at us without recourse, since the Others don't really need us pissing them off to try something. Granted, I might be overthinking it, but I expect DP would've worded it differently in that case.
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It was more "The Others are acting in full force against you everything be dammed" and less "Others circumvent magic loop because of anger". Again if restitution was enough of a cause to break the loop...there would be a lot more dead Chosen.
 
Ericwinter said:
I could have sworn this was essentially the Others getting their "reaction", as it were:


Basically we screwed with them, so they get to screw with us back, but are constrained by the level of damage we dealt. So the OG won't get to respond, but we were doing this explicitly to bleed them of resources anyways, so we don't mind. I think at least.
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The thing is that Viserys isn't the OG, he's a freelancer who does business with them, and the balance action thing applies to their opposition alone. Any action they take that doesn't expend a token given by the OG hands one over to them, our provocation shouldn't effect that.

If that wasn't the case then they'd have gained the right to go after us with the force of one exploded mountain when we killed that mythic wight the first time we were here. Blood Raven would probably have mentioned that when we talked to him afterwards.


That list of reasons seems more like a description of how we irritated them enough to notice us and decide it's worth it to send a hit squad to put Viserys down.
 
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