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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Basically, we both don't know jack shit about the Squids current politics, and don't trust them as far as we can throw them.

We got The Many recently.
The sheer possibility of a group of Mind-Flayer-alikes capable of long-term coexistence with other sentiments weirded Gith out.
Like, hella much. That stuff apparently just doesn't happen.

I think that alone speaks volumes for what these groups on illithid society are like.
Individuals... maybe, maybe not. There are always exceptions.
But these guys are definitely just assholes wanting to be assholes but angry at the Overasshole that lied to them.
 
egoo said:
Basically, we both don't know jack shit about the Squids current politics, and don't trust them as far as we can throw them.

We got The Many recently.
The sheer possibility of a group of Mind-Flayer-alikes capable of long-term coexistence with other sentiments weirded Gith out.
Like, hella much. That stuff apparently just doesn't happen.

I think that alone speaks volumes for what these groups on illithid society are like.
Individuals... maybe, maybe not. There are always exceptions.
But these guys are definitely just assholes wanting to be assholes but angry at the Overasshole that lied to them.
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Unfortunately that is impossible for renegades.

Elder brains mind control the Illithids in their territory. It would be impossible for an illithid to revolt against their elder brain if they remained under its control.

"If a mind flayer remained out of reach from its elder brain, it was possible for it to reacquire its free will. These so-called renegade illithids could go on to establish their own colonies or, free from the elder brain's arrogant supremacy, even seek cooperation with other species. This new personality and any alliances that were made instantly vanished as soon as the renegade illithid fell back under control of an elder brain."

That's a quote direct from both the Wiki.

Illithid are USUALLY Lawful Evil because Renegades try to hide in case they get found out and re-enslaved


egoo said:
First, dont be passive-aggressive pls.

Second, that's 5th edition, fluff there is fairly different to 3.5/Pathfinder we use here.
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It's also in 3.5 Forgotton Realms lore, per Savage Species Splatbook
 
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Don't forget to vote, y'all. This plot thread is getting very interesting, so let's keep pulling in until the Mystery unravels.
 
KnightofTempest said:
"If a mind flayer remained out of reach from its elder brain, it was possible for it to reacquire its free will. These so-called renegade illithids could go on to establish their own colonies or, free from the elder brain's arrogant supremacy, even seek cooperation with other species. This new personality and any alliances that were made instantly vanished as soon as the renegade illithid fell back under control of an elder brain."
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Yeah that's nice and all but until the E.B. is dead and dusted all that tells me is that any squidhead not dead or brainjacked by mold is a sleeper agent waiting to happen.

Like I said they'd be useful assets if we can ensure their loyalty. Their nature isn't a problem, we employ fucking devils for crying out loud, but their loyalty must be guaranteed before I treat them as anything other than enemies to be destroyed and resources to be collected.

If they were willing to stay in their lane and simply ensure their survival I'd be willing to stay in mine and pursue other targets, but this scheme and the deaths associated with it has shown that they aren't and so neither will I.
 
Look, all I'm saying is that it could be renegades and if it is, it's possible we can hijack this reformed faith of the Drowned God to help reform the Ironborn, and use the renegades against the Elder Brain to further our war on the deep ones
 
Gentlemen, let me remember you that we hired Devils already, and not the repentant ones, just the ones that thought that they would be better under our payroll than under Noodle's.

Also we have hired Demons, those LE outsiders which hate everything divine, Rakshasas, vampires, a death cult of assassins in the Faceless and worst of all, gremlins (remember how Glyra was delighted at the massacre at the orphanage)

So, compared to all these, who would gladly backstab us if they can, yetthey don't do so because they don't and accept our rules, how are Illithids worse?
 
KnightofTempest said:
Unfortunately that is impossible for renegades.

Elder brains mind control the Illithids in their territory. It would be impossible for an illithid to revolt against their elder brain if they remained under its control.

"If a mind flayer remained out of reach from its elder brain, it was possible for it to reacquire its free will. These so-called renegade illithids could go on to establish their own colonies or, free from the elder brain's arrogant supremacy, even seek cooperation with other species. This new personality and any alliances that were made instantly vanished as soon as the renegade illithid fell back under control of an elder brain."

That's a quote direct from both the Wiki.

Illithid are USUALLY Lawful Evil because Renegades try to hide in case they get found out and re-enslaved




It's also in 3.5 Forgotton Realms lore, per Savage Species Splatbook
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Well, alright.

What does that have to do with them stopping to be huge asshats, that want multiversal domination and will more than likely snack on brains of sentient creatures just because they want to?

Sure, some individuals may eventually find a peaceful place in out Empire and settle down, our laws arent too hard to follow.

Groups though, Elder Brain or not, are superbly unlikely.
Lawful Evil is still about their own interests over Lawful Neutral's "everyone's interests in an orderly fadhion".

This particular faction, aside from having done some pretty heinous shit already in their bid for power, will win us no favors with more "sane" factions we'd otherwise prefer to standoff for a while.
Bottom line, they'll be an unmissable pr target to hit us in.

I'm a little tempted to turn the Drowned God, but that's just because I'd like to kill Danelle, and she'll very likely fight to death if she ever catches as much as a whiff of it.

That aside, it will buy us little, actually.
Ferryman and Stormy will kinda hate the act, and cooperating with Squids even more.
The Many dont count, they arent really Illithids in the conventional sense.
 
egoo said:
Well, alright.

What does that have to do with them stopping to be huge asshats, that want multiversal domination and will more than likely snack on brains of sentient creatures just because they want to?

Sure, some individuals may eventually find a peaceful place in out Empire and settle down, our laws arent too hard to follow.

Groups though, Elder Brain or not, are superbly unlikely.
Lawful Evil is still about their own interests over Lawful Neutral's "everyone's interests in an orderly fadhion".

This particular faction, aside from having done some pretty heinous shit already in their bid for power, will win us no favors with more "sane" factions we'd otherwise prefer to standoff for a while.
Bottom line, they'll be an unmissable pr target to hit us in.

I'm a little tempted to turn the Drowned God, but that's just because I'd like to kill Danelle, and she'll very likely fight to death if she ever catches as much as a whiff of it.

That aside, it will buy us little, actually.
Ferryman and Stormy will kinda hate the act, and cooperating with Squids even more.
The Many dont count, they arent really Illithids in the conventional sense.
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Have they done heinous shit? Cause from what I saw, we don't know what their goals are beyond weaken the Elder Brain, even at Volmark Keep we aren't completely sure what we stopped from happening there.

Remember the ends justify the means isn't an Evil Act on the Alignment chart, it's a LAWFUL one. . .
 
Tomcost said:
So, compared to all these, who would gladly backstab us if they can, yetthey don't do so because they don't and accept our rules, how are Illithids worse?
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They aren't, that's the thing. It's just the fact that they can't control when they betray us if the Elder Brain exists on this plane so we can't circumvent that betrayal and ensue their loyalty.

When it comes to the Devils and Demons we fixed that with outright bribery, often by employing them in positions that let them indulge their nature while serving out interests. We could easily do the same for the Squids if they weren't timebombs.

It's the same problem we had with our "nephew", if we could have reasonably employed him in our empire we would have, but we couldn't so we fed him to the snake and went about our business.

Same procedure here.
 
I'm fine with either killing the Drowned God or turning it into a Seven Heresy.

One way or another we will have a dead god fed to our gods, and that's what really matters in the end.
 
Evaunit02mark1 said:
They aren't, that's the thing. It's just the fact that they can't control when they betray us if the Elder Brain exists on this plane so we can't circumvent that betrayal and ensue their loyalty.

When it comes to the Devils and Demons we fixed that with outright bribery, often by employing them in positions that let them indulge their nature while serving out interests. We could easily do the same for the Squids if they weren't timebombs.

It's the same problem we had with our "nephew", if we could have reasonably employed him in our empire we would have, but we couldn't so we fed him to the snake and went about our business.

Same procedure here.
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I mean we probably were always going to wipe out the Elder Brain right? It should be a non issue.
 
The "we employ literal fiends" argument is kinda stale.
We take all precautions possible with them.
Like, seriously.

1) Erynies are The Lawfullest around, we kinda can be sure about most of them. And yet we check every summon, and place binding oaths.
2) Yaenits got Yss treatment.
3) Azema did to, and grew a conscience while at it.
4) Barghests arent really Hell's Devils, they are just Evil Doggos and we got people monitoring them regardless.
5) The Gelugon got a "throwaway asset"-treatment, him trying to renegade on us will hurt literally zero of our effort as-is.
6) The Legion(?) Devils are morons, and help the Legions with target practice. Bottom line, they arent really cut out for intriguing around us and backstabbing. Also monitored.
7) The Asuras got monitored into the ground with the spells we checked them with, and we placed binding paths on top, and we have them with people like Malarys and Garin for most of the time.

Illithids face the same problem why some of y'all voted against recruiting the Harvester devil, and in smaller part why ya voted against the Imps.

Too smart. Too likely to fuck around.
Too difficult to keep an eye on at all time.

If the above wasn't the case, I would have had us summon a fuckload of beings to halp us by now, I've gone through a lot of bestiary.
 
Evaunit02mark1 said:
They aren't, that's the thing. It's just the fact that they can't control when they betray us if the Elder Brain exists on this plane so we can't circumvent that betrayal and ensue their loyalty.

When it comes to the Devils and Demons we fixed that with outright bribery, often by employing them in positions that let them indulge their nature while serving out interests. We could easily do the same for the Squids if they weren't timebombs.

It's the same problem we had with our "nephew", if we could have reasonably employed him in our empire we would have, but we couldn't so we fed him to the snake and went about our business.

Same procedure here.
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Yeah, f!Aegon Blackfyre had way too many reasons he needed to be sacrificed to Yss.

1. Hostile Cleric of the Eighth Circle, Cleric of Tiamat
2. We killed Jon Connington in front of him with no intention of resurrecting the man
3. We killed Ashara Dayne in front of him with no intention of resurrecting her either (doubly so since she was also a Cleric of Tiamat)
4. We utterly annihilated the Golden Company and everything he ever worked for
5. He was raised to believe he was the rightful king, and fought multiple wars in pursuit of the goal, so we didn't believe for a second he'd just stop
6. We sacrificed Varys a while ago, he was probably aware of that
7. He definitely wasn't going to be allowed to keep any of his gear

Etc etc.

If we even entertained the idea of recruiting Aegon, that wouldn't just mean Aegon. By nature he'd demand we resurrect Jon Connington and Ashara Dayne, and then we'd have three hostile high level PCs to have to manage, all of whom had plenty of reason to hate us.

And so Aegon's soul was devoured by Yss and unmade in the oblivion of his stomach, and Ashara and Jon will suffer in Tiamat's "merciful" hands.
 
KnightofTempest said:
I mean we probably were always going to wipe out the Elder Brain right? It should be a non issue.
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When it's dead then we can talk, until then?
egoo said:
Illithids face the same problem why some of y'all voted against recruiting the Harvester devil, and in smaller part why ya voted against the Imps.

Too smart. Too likely to fuck around.
Too difficult to keep an eye on at all time.
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Basically this. Destroy on sight.

Edit: Vote
[X] Goldfish
 
Evaunit02mark1 said:
They aren't, that's the thing. It's just the fact that they can't control when they betray us if the Elder Brain exists on this plane so we can't circumvent that betrayal and ensue their loyalty.

When it comes to the Devils and Demons we fixed that with outright bribery, often by employing them in positions that let them indulge their nature while serving out interests. We could easily do the same for the Squids if they weren't timebombs.

It's the same problem we had with our "nephew", if we could have reasonably employed him in our empire we would have, but we couldn't so we fed him to the snake and went about our business.

Same procedure here.
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The same would apply to any Mindcontrolled ally.

Or do you think that if at some point someone succeeds in a Dominate Person against Garin, all our intelligence network wouldn't be compromised?

With these squids there is neither an ideological dispute nor any kind of wrongdoing requiring reparations. They are the opposite of fanatics, in the way that they broke away from the Elder Brain.

"But they can be mind-controlled" is not an argument. Not at all.
 
Tomcost said:
The same would apply to any Mindcontrolled ally.

Or do you think that if at some point someone succeeds in a Dominate Person against Garin, all our intelligence network wouldn't be compromised?

With these squids there is neither an ideological dispute nor any kind of wrongdoing requiring reparations. They are the opposite of fanatics, in the way that they broke away from the Elder Brain.

"But they can be mind-controlled" is not an argument. Not at all.
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Mind-controlled is the wrong word. Mind control implies they can break this hold should they, somehow, return to within range of the Elder Brain.

This is hard-wired into their genetics. Unless they are the sub-type that becomes an Elder Brain they cannot break the hold the Elder Brain has over them.

To use your example Garin being dominated can be broken with an Anti-magic field, or a spell, or simply by putting him in stasis somewhere while we deal with the prick who cast said spell. The Elder Brain's hold is absolute, save for distance or subversion by previously mentioned Sub-type squidhead.

If the Squid is away from it, fine and dandy they're their own person, throw confetti and give em a party. If they're anywhere near the thing they are puppets, pure and simple.

They may have their intelligence, but they won't have their freewill, they will be, for all intents and purposes, limbs of the Elder Brain.

You don't make friends with an ant if the queen is right there and all it'll take is a squirt of pheromones to cause said new "friend" to reduce you to bloody chunks.

Until that thing is dead I'm killing any squid I see or making damn sure they stay far away from anything I care about. I'm not gonna budge on this.
 
Evaunit02mark1 said:
Mind-controlled is the wrong word. Mind control implies they can break this hold should they, somehow, return to within range of the Elder Brain.

This is hard-wired into their genetics. Unless they are the sub-type that becomes an Elder Brain they cannot break the hold the Elder Brain has over them.

To use your example Garin being dominated can be broken with an Anti-magic field, or a spell, or simply by putting him in stasis somewhere while we deal with the prick who cast said spell. The Elder Brain's hold is absolute, save for distance or subversion by previously mentioned Sub-type squidhead.

If the Squid is away from it, fine and dandy they're their own person, throw confetti and give em a party. If they're anywhere near the thing they are puppets, pure and simple.

They may have their intelligence, but they won't have their freewill, they will be, for all intents and purposes, limbs of the Elder Brain.

You don't make friends with an ant if the queen is right there and all it'll take is a squirt of pheromones to cause said new "friend" to reduce you to bloody chunks.

Until that thing is dead I'm killing any squid I see or making damn sure they stay far away from anything I care about. I'm not gonna budge on this.
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This only means that we have to put them sufficiently away from the mostly immobile mass of grey matter... which is what they have been doing all this time?

I understand most concerns, but this one is not specific to any particular underling. The Elder brain con probably bypass all protections and control anybody if it is within its reach.
 
Tomcost said:
This only means that we have to put them sufficiently away from the mostly immobile mass of grey matter... which is what they have been doing all this time?

I understand most concerns, but this one is not specific to any particular underling. The Elder brain con probably bypass all protections and control anybody if it is within its reach.
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Which is why I want to kill it first.

Murder then Friendship my dear Waddle Dee, Murder then Friendship.
 
I want an Ulitharid staff. We will take an Ulitharid head and put it on a stick, and presumably make the Deep Ones miserable with it.
 
The deep ones are really best enemies we face. With a different enough magic that we can't easily predict. With both low level fodder and high level caster and a basically unassualtable natural fortresss under the ocean.
 
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