No faith with supremacy over millions of people will want to compromise that power base. It is an innately political decision dressed up with trappings of faith.

That's fair, effective tactic, but it doesn't make you innately justified any more than the dragon who is asserting his claim which many in Westeros do recognize. It means you are rivals.
 
We aren't that, though? We're a Targaryen, our family and the faith had a simple understanding for some time, based on them not bothering us admittedly, but it still worked. It could easily have worked some more, Viserys doesn't even care for the incest thing, which was the last real compromise of the Faith with the Targaryens. If not for the Old Gods getting there first, which is a problem of the Seven's making, an arrangement would be in the cards. And it still could be, with some compromises and a good public apology over the whole Andal Invasion thing.
Oh, we absolutely are their anti-Christ. There's no question.

1. We are incestspawn, which the Seven really don't care for. And even if Viserys and Dany aren't in love with each other in that way, they're also Targaryen and see nothing wrong with it, as confirmed by DP.
2. We're a Dread Sorcerer, one of the most powerful in Prime Material, and we flatly refuse to comply by the Seven's mandates regarding magic.
3. We are liberally using and spreading the use of blood sacrifice.
4. We are the closest thing to a champion of the Old Gods.
5. We sacrificed Baelor the Blessed.
6. We have aspirations to conquer all of Westeros, bringing all Seven-worshipers under our dominion, giving us the means to shape and influence the entire religion over the next few centuries.

Before most of this happened there was a reason that the Father sent Lucan a vision warning him about us in particular. We represent everything they stand against. Foreign gods, unrestricted magics, evil conquering dragons, etc.
 
I mean, we won't actually do much to the faith? The main change is that they have to accept magic and godly competitors, old and new. Justice, mercy, protecting the innocent and all that good stuff, the real important stuff of the faith, are all things we're cool with.

We will also be extracting a heavy toll of reparations for the Old Gods and be ending the religious hegemony they have come to enjoy over 4000 years. We will be allowing Blood Sacrifices to be performed for religions (hell we do it ourselves) and we will also allow for the study of Necromancy (something that even the Old Gods, never mind the Seven, might be pissy about). We will also be influencing the religion to be more mercantile to be able to compete with the gods we are bringing. The Seven preach virtues and such but that doesn't mean much to the tangible benefits that a Yss backed blessing will give. Our Empire as a whole is an existential crisis and everything that they fear.
 
We will also be extracting a heavy toll of reparations for the Old Gods and be ending the religious hegemony they have come to enjoy over 4000 years. We will be allowing Blood Sacrifices to be performed for religions (hell we do it ourselves) and we will also allow for the study of Necromancy (something that even the Old Gods, never mind the Seven, might be pissy about). We will also be influencing the religion to be more mercantile to be able to compete with the gods we are bringing. The Seven preach virtues and such but that doesn't mean much to the tangible benefits that a Yss backed blessing will give. Our Empire as a whole is an existential crisis and everything that they fear.
Precisely.

It's hilarious that we get along so great with R'hllorists comparatively. At the beginning of the quest I never would have expected this.
 
1. We are incestspawn, which the Seven really don't care for. And even if Viserys and Dany aren't in love with each other in that way, they're also Targaryen and see nothing wrong with it, as confirmed by DP.
2. We're a Dread Sorcerer, one of the most powerful in Prime Material, and we flatly refuse to comply by the Seven's mandates regarding magic.
3. We are liberally using and spreading the use of blood sacrifice.
4. We are the closest thing to a champion of the Old Gods.
5. We sacrificed Baelor the Blessed.
6. We have aspirations to conquer all of Westeros, bringing all Seven-worshipers under our dominion, giving us the means to shape and influence the entire religion over the next few centuries.
1. The Faith already compromised on that a while ago.
2. The Faith recently compromised on that, with the Chosen present and not too many Dragons overhead.
3. Fair, that's a sticking point. But we're doing way more of the justice and taking care of people parts of the book, I still say it's an even trade.
4. Wouldn't be a problem if they hadn't burned so many innocent trees.
5. Wouldn't be a problem if they hadn't made him into a Kingkiller angel.
6. We have already conquered the territories of several gods, you don't see them whining this much.

And your religious hegemony isn't worth much if your people have to sign in with the Fae for protection because you can't handle things. Lets remember that the Fae kind of hate Gods, if they have their way the Seven won't even have a chance to get back in. Letting in other gods and having to play with only a normal home-field advantage for once is really no problem compared to the freaking Faewyld swallowing kingdoms worth of worshipers and refusing to spit them back out.
 
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I'll say this much, because the disagreement between Lucan and his angel should have prompted the penny to drop back then and it's being overlooked again right now:

Burny is Lawful Evil, but his Cleric Benerro isn't. Benerro is also interpreting scripture instead of following direct divine orders, what with being a mortal instead of a manifestation of Burnies will.
 
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Basically, it doesn't matter if 90% of the Faithful would end up fine with it--eventually, and end up adapting to our rule hitting the ground running with or without our help.

It matters to the political figures in the Faith that we would be eroding their established authority in a lot of ways.

A lot of what erodes any moral authority in this situation is that they just are incapable of delivering on any of the things they hope to promise to their followers. They aren't that competent. They say, ideally, they will "deal with the dead wood" in the Faith and then deliver Westeros.

Where is the deliverance? "We need more power and authority, to better help the Lords."

The Lords now don't have primacy on their own lands. They either were forced to sell it to the Faith because the Faith dawdled and dithered, or with other powers, or else the Faith now commands near total authority thanks to their desire for a monopoly on magic.

The Lords rebel because like as not no plurality of Lords is significant enough to give away all of their authority to the Faith, no one actually wants the Faith Militant back either. Now you have a bloody civil war.

They area failed religion, us taking over would actually fix it in the sense that it would deliver exactly what it was capable of again to its followers. Lying about your capabilities for the sake of personal power is offensive to us, therefore they are our enemies.
 
I'll say this much, because the disagreement between Lucan and his angel should have prompted the penny to drop back then and it's being overlooked again right now:

Burny is Lawful Evil, but his Cleric Benerro isn't. Benerro is also interpreting scripture instead of following direct divine orders.
So you are saying Lucan is the LN Cleric of an LG God, and he pissed off his angel over pragmatism? Because I certainly don't see how that is much more than an intriguing tidbit. The Father gets to pick and choose, due to his having a whole continent and needing only one cleric, so him choosing an imperfect match seems strange, but I don't see how this makes Lucan less annoying, or justified in somehow making a top tier angel mope in front of the mortals.
 
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So you are saying Lucan is the LN Cleric of an LG God, and he pissed off his angel over pragmatism? Because I certainly don't see how that is much more than an intriguing tidbit. The Father gets to pick and choose, due to his having a whole continent and needing only one cleric, so him choosing an imperfect match seems strange.
the father is LN not LG
 
I feel like the best way to let them take the first shot, to be honest. We use our first strike on our declared enemies, that is Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister. Then if the Faith rebels against the rightful king of Westeros who sits on the throne and everything, they attacked us rather than the other way around. It'll help with many of our loyal lords, who are some variant of religious but very against a Faith Militant-style attack on the King.
This would be my preferred method as well. I dislike giving an enemy like the Seven and their Chosen the first shot, but this is the best way in the long run, IMO. We've got too many allies, some of them Divine in nature (Moonsinger) or who are thoroughly Good-aligned (such as the Djinn, Bloom, etc), not to mention most of the population of Westeros who worship them, who might balk at us openly initiating hostilities with the Seven.

There is plenty of stuff we can do once we start the re-conquest which will provoke the Chosen and their closely allied forces without us seeming unreasonable.
 
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Precisely.

It's hilarious that we get along so great with R'hllorists comparatively. At the beginning of the quest I never would have expected this.

See the thing here is that for the Rhllorists it has been business as usual. Yes, they can't burn the heathens anymore but they have had said heathens for a while and have competed and debated with them for a long ass time. To them, the only thing that changed was a ruler not wanting a religious mob and most people are more than okay with that. It also helps that we kinda match their Azor Ahai thing.
 
So you are saying Lucan is the LN Cleric of an LG God, and he pissed off his angel over pragmatism? Because I certainly don't see how that is much more than an intriguing tidbit. The Father gets to pick and choose, due to his having a whole continent and needing only one cleric, so him choosing an imperfect match seems strange.
:facepalm: For fucks sake.

It's the other way around! He is a LG Paladin of a LN deity!

The angel was weird because he had to obey Lucan and Lucan told him to not murder spellcasters for no reason! Because Lucan had fucking character development in between being picked and the Conclave!

@DragonParadox, sorry, but I couldn't take this anymore. I had to say this lest I verbally punch someone.
 
1. The Faith already compromised on that a while ago.
2. The Faith recently compromised on that, with the Chosen present and not too many Dragons overhead.
3. Fair, that's a sticking point. But we're doing way more of the justice and taking care of people parts of the book, I still say it's an even trade.
4. Wouldn't be a problem if they hadn't kinda burned so many innocent trees.
5. Wouldn't be a problem if they hadn't made him into a Kingkiller angel.
6. We have already conquered the territories of several gods, you don't see them whining this much.

And your religious hegemony isn't worth much if your people have to sign with the Fae for protection because you can't handle them.
1. Compromised at the pain of dragonflame. Just because they compromised doesn't mean they or their gods like it, dude.
2. Not to the level you're implying. They compromised in regards to non-divine magic and fey coexistence, but that doesn't mean they will welcome Scholarum mages with open arms.
3. That's not the point. Yes, blood sacrifice is justified to us, and we've been using it to the benefit of our citizens, and only sacrificing people and monsters according to a code. But we're not looking at it through our eyes, we're looking at it through theirs, the people and gods who are going, "No reward is ever worth that price". This is one of the times where justifications don't matter, it's just something they will hate us over.
4-5. This isn't about justifications from our side. This is about how the Faith of the Seven and the gods themselves will be seeing it. From their perspective they really don't want to get slammed by an old enemy. Also one of their strongest angels got bitchslapped and sacrificed by us when he rose to challenge us, which is pretty scary for them.
6. Because for most of those other gods we're not their anti-Christ, and we haven't sworn to humble them. Even R'hllor mellowed out once we started freeing all his worshipers and proved ourselves a potential ally against the Void.
 
...I feel like I should jsut add the "kill Lucan/Danelle" into a turn plan and be done with it.
Haven't we argued enough around this point?
I feel like we argued enough around this point.

Not gonna "sneak in" that sort of stuff, but, like, be aware y'all, my mind is pretty set on decisively purging them.
 
The angel was weird because he had to obey Lucan and Lucan told him to not murder spellcasters for no reason! Because Lucan had fucking character development in between being picked and the Conclave!
No, the angel was moping over not healing those guys who got fucked up by Deep Ones, I remember the conversation we actually had with that angel. Not once was any murder mentioned, and this is completely new.
 
:facepalm: For fucks sake.

It's the other way around! He is a LG Paladin of a LN deity!

The angel was weird because he had to obey Lucan and Lucan told him to not murder spellcasters for no reason! Because Lucan had fucking character development in between being picked and the Conclave!

@DragonParadox, sorry, but I couldn't take this anymore. I had to say this lest I verbally punch someone.
Huh. That's weird.

Screw that angel, good on Lucan for making him not murder mages.
 
Huh. That's weird.

Screw that angel, good on Lucan for making him not murder mages.
It's bullshit, is what it is. The Angel's moping was apparently over something completely unrelated than he told us what he was depressed about. Not to mention that it is not how angels think. A murderous angel would call it killing over something like that a mercy and be unhappy about doing it. Unless that thing we met was hiding black or grey wings under a glamour, there's no way that was what was happening.

Unless it's a case like the slave trader at Hellven I guess, but how the fuck is a creature so insane in a God's service, let alone actually deployed to the Plane of Balance? Also, a super insane angel like the slave trader at hellven would not hide what bothered it.
 
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No, the angel was moping over not healing those guys who got fucked up by Deep Ones, I remember the conversation we actually had with that angel. Not once was any murder mentioned, and this is completely new.
No, that was the angel being disturbed by the damage done by the Illithid and that even his Miracle SLA couldn't fix it.

That was already clarified back then, but quite a few people kept insisting that the QM was wrong.
 
Screw that angel, good on Lucan
...is that the famous "LG-bias" we have heard about?
[:V]
[/jk]
[Dis is a joke]

@Azel, I think you quite succeeded in making interesting characters that create discussion
...The discussion kinda went outta hand and never went back, buuuut, quantity's a quality on it's own, eh? Eeeh? :V
[/jk]

G'night all. Will they for a basic turnplan tomorrow, although we've too many RAs and a few Adventures with Progress not shown yet.
@DragonParadox?
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Rovos on Apr 1, 2020 at 2:58 PM, finished with 101 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] Plan Preparing for War
    -[X] The revelations brought by the trip to Ashford and the subsequent divinations proves that the matter of the Court of Stars is much more urgent then you thought. This conflict must be resolved as quickly as possible to avoid further damage to the Plane of Balance caused by melding it with the Feywild, and to ensure the timetable for the invasion of Westeros is not impacted.
    -[X] You have gathered this group to discuss measures to be taken in 3 directions:
    --[X] Mitigating or better yet reversing the effects of the deals already struck.
    --[X] Preventing further deals from coming to pass and removing CoS assets that are capable of forming these pacts.
    --[X] Neutralizing the CoS as a coherent power block and independent actor. Preferably by subsuming as much of it as possible, but eliminating as much of it as necessary.
 
Burny is Lawful Evil, but his Cleric Benerro isn't. Benerro is also interpreting scripture instead of following direct divine orders, what with being a mortal instead of a manifestation of Burnies will.
We have seen no hint that Benerro would follow scripture over divine command though.
Only that he makes his own (often benevolent) interpretations in the absence of such command.

Ultimatly, if a Cleric of a god we can't agree with wants our trust, he has to reject his god.
As long as all their power and usefulness is dependant on a, to us, hostile actor, we can't work with them very well.
Which is why the talk we had with Burny directly was really important to me, so that it was cleared up wether our plans for the future where compatible or not.
Luckily they are.

Unless the Father and the other six come up with similar good explanations their, loyal followers must be seen as enemies by default.
(Though in Brienne's case a completly harmless enemy, that we can easily afford to keep around until the situation is cleared)
 
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Part MMMCDXIX: A Fair Unbinding
A Fair Unbinding

Twenty Fifth Day of the Twelfth Month 293 AC

Your envoys in Yin had been rather surprised when you had asked to borrow the Queen Rhaella, as had the locals you imagine when the great ship vanished from the harbor, but you have need of the insight of its guardian spirit. So it is that a full sixteen of you descend into the depths of the Shadow Tower, amid the hollow trophies of battles fought and won. What better place for a council of war?

Among your companions you had called upon Vee and Lya, the first for her knowledge of nature, the second for her deep lore of magic. And because a queen should be there if the king declares war. A small insistent voice in the back of your mind chines in. You shake off the thought. Not all present would lightly argue for war. Zathir looks incongruous in these shadowed halls and not only because he had shrunk himself down to better fit in the chamber.

The High Priest of Yss by contrast observes the proceedings with a cold dispassionate gaze, a glint of gold within them reflecting the serpent god's own intent stare. Melisandre too arrives a moment later and though the eye of R'hllor does not seem any more affixed upon her than in any other moment, the spark of crimson flame suspended above her heart marks that even that is more than enough. Never before have you asked gods to send representatives to such a gathering, but so they had arrived, perhaps the powers' own pondering of the future giving a sign of the portentousness of the event.

Only Bloodraven had chosen not to attend directly but speak instead into your mind, so as not to reveal himself to all the others present, but you can feel his will close as the shadow of wings over the sun.

Among the deathless fey who have little use for gods there is Rhaella Nemyos, 'Seaborn' in the tongue of Valyria as she had chosen to be called, but also her father, the Once-King of the Orphne Court who embraces her tightly in greeting before somewhat gingerly seating himself next to Melisandre, his curiosity about a shadowbinder visibly at odds with the dislike of divine meddling. Glyra of course suffers from no such subtlety, complaining about the 'smell of moldy gods' and that there is no window to open before settling as much as Glyra ever does. Thankfully Moonsong's newly elevated position makes her react with slightly more decorum, she only takes the chance to flirt with the Red Viper by reminding him 'of all the places she hasn't journeyed to and enjoyed properly'.

Were Zherys one to perform so inelegant a gesture you suspect he would roll his eyes. Soft Strider by contrast merely looks bemused, the manner of human courting and seduction still opaque to her for all the companionship of the once-mortals who joined her kin.

As to the other city rulers present, they are taking the presence of gods and spirits with surprising alacrity. Ferrengo Antaryon is doing his best to take in all his fellow guests and their relationship with each other without seeming to gawk. Doing a very good job of it too. Without magesight you could have well missed the spell of silent speech that connects him to Alysande Redsail of the Silver Eye. Though Hermetia has no such direct support she finds her seat next to Shara quickly and turns to you expectantly as though you are about to announce some minor change to the tax code. Then again, a change to tax law is likely to have more of an impact on her responsibilities than any conflict with the Court of Stars.

You lay out what you have discovered at Ashford and in subsequent divination had revealed as well as the ultimate intention of the Queen of Stars and her court for those who do not yet know. Three paths stand open before you, mitigating the Court's influence, or better yet reversing the effects of deals already struck, preventing further deals and removing the assets by which they were struck and lastly removing and dissolving the entire court, preferably while absorbing as many of its members as you can, though removing them if necessary.

"I think..." the Orphne Lord begins, an unexpected first speaker. "That we need to first learn why they are forging such pacts. These lands that you have described as under the influence of the Star-Crowned share no commonality of purpose or spirit, they are not even close to each other as the raven flies," he motions to the map. "We are seeing an edifice built upon sand, which means either the Court of Light has grown foolish without warning or there is a keystone we cannot see."

"Flawed or not we cannot ignore the current entanglements of the Lords of the Reach," Zherys interjects. "The most straightforward way to reverse a ritual is with its initial casters, which if I understand correctly includes the lords themselves, 'wedded to the land'."

"It is an old magic and one particularly suited to the Sunset Lands where the roots of its lords go so very deep," Melisandre agrees. "Make use of the Lord or Lady and the place of power in which the ritual was wrought and it shall be undone without harm to land or people."

"Thy words are wise, yet they fill me with a chill deeper than the shadows of this place," Zathir hisses softly. "What use would you place those who forged this bargain to?"

"Sacrifice them," Melisandre meets the winged serpent's gaze without flinching. "Else they would have to pay some heavy forfeit. Death on the other hand wipes many a slate clean."

"That," the Sealord says, his voice soft but firm. "Is politically unfeasible, or at least not feasible in any case. The lord who made this bargain to protect his people when no other aid seemed forthcoming could not be made to die a justifiable death before his peers unless we are to argue that the Court of Stars is as great a peril as the Hells or the blackest Abyss."

Lya clears her throat. "We have the Tyrells and the Florents for that matter, if their claim to the old Gardener blood is indeed better. Make use of their authority to enact our own ritual, proclaiming the bonds already in place illegitimate, null and void. That would not be a breech of contract, would it?"

Moonsong starts giggling. "The look on the Queen's face. 'Oi, you bargained with the petty lordlings so we stole your high lords when you weren't lookin''."

"That... should be possible," Melisandre draws out the words looking first to Zherys, then Vee and receiving nods from both. You are inclined to agree and that neatly solves the issue of preventing further such pacts from being enacted, though that raises another concern...

"A ritual that proclaims, 'no, this place should not be protected' might have unforeseen and likely unfortunate consequences," you point out. "A shattered gate is an invitation to foes who would walk through it."

"So we replace one protector with another," the voice of Bloodraven echoes in your mind, whisper-soft. "The Old Gods care nothing for how men choose to live their lives, only for the land, and knowing when one is touched by Hell or the Deep Ones sets foot within the villages and towns of the Reach would certainly be useful."

"We are goin' to need to know how this magic of theirs really works out there before we can plan much more," Vee points out practically. "Get folk down there to see with their own eyes. Hells, ask the one's that aught to be doin' the persuading on the lords that haven't decided yet what they are meant to be doin'."

"And you think they will simply tell us?" Rhaella asks incredulously.

"Bribe 'em," the girl replies. "It's worked a treat so far on all sorts of folk."

How do you judge the notion of a counter-ritual?

[] Worth pursuing
-[] Write in plan and timeline

[] You have more questions
-[] Write in

[] Impractical, look for other suggestions
-[] Write in

[] Write in


OOC: Wow, I don't think I've ever had to handle this many distinct characters in a scene before. Hopefully I struck a good balance and did everyone justice.
 
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We have seen no hint that Benerro would follow scripture over divine command though.
Only that he makes his own (often benevolent) interpretations in the absence of such command.

Ultimatly, if a Cleric of a god we can't agree with wants our trust, he has to reject his god.
As long as all their power and usefulness is dependant on a, to us, hostile actor, we can't work with them very well.
Which is why the talk we had with Burny directly was really important to me, so that it was cleared up wether our plans for the future where compatible or not.
Luckily they are.

Unless the Father and the other six come up with similar good explanations their loyal followers must be seen as enemies by default.
(Though in Brienne's case a completly harmless enemy, that we can easily afford to keep around until the situation is cleared)
Lucan is opposing Viserys for his own reasons, not solely the Fathers commandment.

More I cannot say. I've likely already said too much.
 
Guys maybe it's best deal with the fey in front of us not the Seven that aren't. The quest is complex enough that it's probably preferable to take things as they are relevant, not dredge up the past.
 
Guys maybe it's best deal with the fey in front of us not the Seven that aren't. The quest is complex enough that it's probably preferable to take things as they are relevant, not dredge up the past.
Quite.

The counter ritual, I like. It makes running around fixing these problems one by one less urgent. But we need to track down all the people of Gardener blood that we can, both to enhance it and to prevent a counter ritual. The Gardener Crown may also serve to empower it, but we need to be careful with it.

We should also bribe a ton of people, since Vee is right that that always works. Lords, Fae Knights (they are apparently quite cheap) and anyone else of relevance. Hitting the weak points in the Fae Courts' structure could count for a lot, but we need more information to actually find them, and I bet there's a lot of Fae we can bribe for it. Even if Knights are surprisingly cheap, we'll also want to target some of the Little Folk, who are always more susceptible to bribery and dislike the fae nobles anyhow.

And have Gods on standby. The Old Gods are good, but given how close the Reach is to the heart of the religious mess we may want options. The Merling King is anti-Deep Ones, and should be a particularly good fit for shore regions.
 
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