A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

[T_of_A]

Azel is right (obviously "displayed their Int 2" was irony, Dragons generally have Int 18 or so, and are meant to be wise geniuses).
This quest would feel much better if we suffered a few defeats, or if a few of our B-parties were slaughtered and looted or something.
Anyway, I'm hoping that whatever the GC's trump card is, it's seriously devastating somehow.

@Deliste, how would something like Factotum work?
I'd guess Factotum is easy enough to level (all challenging activities fall within the fluff of the Factotum class), but how would the magic work? Do I actually need to be magical myself, despite the Factotum's fluff of not being magic-users themselves? Do I need a teacher who could teach me ASOIaF magic, and would I get ASOIaF magic or Factotum magic?

Yes, I'm thinking of Factotum. The "you are a ruler and must make good decisions" problem really sucks, so I'd prefer a class that lets me actually make those good decisions in a reliable manner. Skill points ahoy!

Obviously this depends on my stats. If I was stuck with my IRL stats I probably wouldn't be taking Factotum, because Factota really want maxxed Int.
I'd probably go Binder instead, appear in the Reach, and try to wrangle Marwyn's tutelage (I have 20 000 men, this sort of diplomatic concession shouldn't be impossible). Binder is stat-independent after all. Naberius is broken for a social build, within 1.5 years I can start getting the good vestiges (unlimited healing, etc), and 2 years in I can grab Zceryll and go wild.

 

[BronzeTongue]

So you are mostly worried about something that has not been foreshadowed in the actual narrative on the assumption that it might happen and might be a threat.

There is simply no IC reason to assume an Avatar to show up. So far, all evidence points to the endboss being Faegon and his 8th level cleric spells, which is pretty much nothing compared to the attack force. So... why should I care about a giant space-flea from nowhere?

And here I would like to doubt. Hard.

Really big and really dangerous enemies of the past:
- an Avatar of Mammon - died in 6 seconds to the action economy
- Mythic Winter Wight - decided to waste his special defense ability on an arrow so that Viserys could effortlessly catch him with the trick that failed just one round prior
- previous Avatar of Tiamat with GC backup - was level-drained into patheticness and bludgeoned to death with the action economy
- The Listener in Mantarys - Glyra was annoying him and he killed himself by moronically screwing his own ritual
- Rakshasa Maharaja - beaten to death with the action economy

See also:


There's this constant pattern of big stompy monsters being thrown at a bloated party and dying like chumps for it, or them squandering their advantages and basically killing themselves by idiocy.

My prediction is that if a Tiamat Avatar shows up, it will mono-focus on something like an idiot and be shot to bits by a mixture of Companion spells and Moonchaser artillery.

It's hard to be worried (or hyped) for a battle when you are certain from the outset that it will either be won by numbers or, in a critical moment, the opponents being dipshits.

Click to shrink...

Those examples either involved a failed save of some kind, really lucky roles, or both. We also benefited from the fact that they had no idea what our exact methods or capabilities were when we encountered them.

What we're doing right now is effectively walking right up to Tiamat and using our surprise round to talk trash while she gets ready to smite us.

She's had a lot of time to think about how she wants to handle this, and the resources to prepare any number of "solutions" to us. None of the advantages that gave us the edge before will really apply here, so this one is unlikely to play out like they did.

Even if Tiamat did decide to try using a big stupid monster to kill us, her last avatar took 15 sorcerers at or above Viserys' level to put down. We have the well of eternity to help, but if anyone can pull off a victory with those tactics it'd be her.

 

[T_of_A]

Those examples either involved a failed save of some kind, really lucky roles, or both. We also benefited from the fact that they had no idea what our exact methods or capabilities were when we encountered them.

Click to shrink...

What kind of powerful Dragon assumes that a group of well-equipped spellcasters won't have a way to beat simple illusions?
There's "not knowing our exact capabilities", and then there's "dumb".

 

[egoo]

So, alright, one of the quest's aspects is irreparably fucked.
What can we do about it, really?

Cutting down on MAs, RAs, and assignments that have little to do with Viserys (no infrastructure-interludes, shortening adventures from minions to reports) is easy-ish on our side.
Done, even.

Nothing can be done about the combat-balance without also fucking up the setting's established rules and believability.
Select few exemptions include the elite illithid, devil, and possibly Other's forces.

Tiamat may or may not act stupid as fuck. She may or may not fail lots of saves and get murdered quickly.
We can't just up her existing game out of nowhere.

Her going all-rage mode and summoning lots of Outsiders at her own expense is still a very big possibility, I guess.
And whatever's the ritual there.


Largely, I agree with you, @Azel, but I can't even begin express how depressing that whole topic is for me.
I don't see a way for us to turn this power disparity around in any reasonable manner.

Imma nap now, may the DP be sommoneth.

 

[BronzeTongue]

What kind of powerful Dragon assumes that a group of well-equipped spellcasters won't have a way to beat simple illusions?
There's "not knowing our exact capabilities", and then there's "dumb".

Click to shrink...

I was referring to things like our fights with Mammon and the mythic wight.

Not making perfect decisions all the time isn't the same as being dumb, especially if they're made based on habit. If you're used to being the biggest monster around your combat reflexes would be drastically different than if you were habitually fighting people stronger than you.

If no one ever makes their saves against you then you'd be surprised if someone did, even when you should know better, supposing that it happens fast enough that you don't have time to think.

 

[Shador]

[X] Goldfish

 

[BronzeTongue]

So, alright, one of the quest's aspects is irreparably fucked.
What can we do about it, really?

Cutting down on MAs, RAs, and assignments that have little to do with Viserys (no infrastructure-interludes, shortening adventures from minions to reports) is easy-ish on our side.
Done, even.

Nothing can be done about the combat-balance without also fucking up the setting's established rules and believability.
Select few exemptions include the elite illithid, devil, and possibly Other's forces.

Tiamat may or may not act stupid as fuck. She may or may not fail lots of saves and get murdered quickly.
We can't just up her existing game out of nowhere.

Her going all-rage mode and summoning lots of Outsiders at her own expense is still a very big possibility, I guess.
And whatever's the ritual there.


Largely, I agree with you, @Azel, but I can't even begin express how depressing that whole topic is for me.
I don't see a way for us to turn this power disparity around in any reasonable manner.

Imma nap now, may the DP be sommoneth.

Click to shrink...

I don't think it's as bad as you guys are suggesting. Most of the time there is an acceptable reason for why one enemy or another is limited, and those aren't universal constants. Viserys has now become a more well known factor, his opponents have additional time to prepare, and the resources they have available locally to do so are increasing.

Tiamat should have oodles of shit we aren't aware of since we didn't completely pierce her defenses for example.

The Deep Ones have everywhere between the edge of the imperium and the start of Yi-Ti to play in completely unobserved even if we don't count whatever shit they're doing at the bottom of the ocean.

The Efreeti are a planar empire that has largely been unaware of Viserys, and had better shit to do regardless. This will change with our next big operation there.


There are plenty of entirely rational places for more difficult enemies to emerge from without breaking any of the established rules or faction behaviors.

 

[MTB]

If the Other's are able to change their behavior, their track record in interacting with Targaryen's should mean they polish the Long Night strategies.

 

[Azel]

@BronzeTongue, your arguments are centered around the idea that Viserys is some kind of nigh-invulnerable Mary-Sue that everyone keeps underestimating. You are completely ignoring the question "should he be this much more powerful then everyone else in the first place?". Furthermore, my argument is that this hurts the story as a story. Internal logic isn't the point here. A story can be 100% internally consistent and still have glaring flaws.

Also, my argument isn't that enemies should be stronger. I have given up on that front long, long ago, since the thread has gotten so used to being invulnerable that it's far too late to change anything.
But that doesn't mean the story shouldn't at least acknowledge this state of affairs.

My issue is the dissonance between what we see on screen and what the screen tells us about itself.
Battles that are over nigh immediately with next to zero danger are somehow treated as harrowing.
Viserys never suffered a meaningful defeat, always bouncing back from setbacks immediately and never loosing anything of personal value, yet he is portrayed as constantly imperiled. Sometimes. Sometimes the narrative completely forgets about anything out of the current scope.

There are more of these issues. But I'll cut it off here since I don't think this tangent is actually in any way useful. We had this talk often enough.

Corollary: There is a reason I'm no longer designing high-CR stuff for this thread.

 

[Azel]

And what is really glaring to me is that nobody contests the substance of what I said, that Viserys won many battles easily due to weight of numbers, "surprise" or plain idiocy.

People try to justify it or oracle about all the dangers of future battles, but nobody denies the core argument.

Yet one question for all who love to worry about new battles or their pet boogeymen, why, without IC justification, but by viewing the story as a story that is moving in certain paths and trajectories, do you assume this would change? All these battles I listed were hyped as super-difficult too. Mammon in particular went from "we will most likely all die" to "Haha! Look at that pathetic looser!" within a span of one update.

 

[T_of_A]

And what is really glaring to me is that nobody contests the substance of what I said, that Viserys won many battles easily due to weight of numbers, "surprise" or plain idiocy.

People try to justify it or oracle about all the dangers of future battles, but nobody denies the core argument.

Yet one question for all who love to worry about new battles or their pet boogeymen, why, without IC justification, but by viewing the story as a story that is moving in certain paths and trajectories, do you assume this would change? All these battles I listed were hyped as super-difficult too. Mammon in particular went from "we will most likely all die" to "Haha! Look at that pathetic looser!" within a span of one update.

Click to shrink...

I was expecting Mammon, the Prince of Greed, to have the sort of hear we have now (or better). Not having that made him a dumb chump, yes.

Honestly, the reason I fear new enemies will be stronger is because it would make sense, because it would make for a better story (IMO) and because I hope it will happen.
Therefore, I act as if it will. It's hope, it's a hint, and it's better than salt.

Does this make any sense?

A thought: if you want to make Viserys weaker, the obvious thing to do is to hit him with a Disjunction, or have Tiamat divinely grab a pile of his gear as soon as we step within her temple, or something.
A lot of our power (and of the power of our Companions) rests in preparation and numbers, yes. But it's also gear. Gear for our saves, stats, versatility, defenses... We are fighting a number of enemies capable of preparing and/or shitting out a pile of Dysjunctions. I regularly expect Efreet, Deep Ones or Tiamat to pull that shit.

It would be annoying from a player perspective, but it makes a lot of sense! And we could certainly make a lot of that back in a few months, of course, but time lost is time lost and money lost is money lost (and increased vulnerability during those months).
Oh, and of course DP can always invent a "too much enchanted stuff on one person is dangerous" houserule, and have us discover it simply by putting on one item too many.

 

[Azel]

I was expecting Mammon, the Prince of Greed, to have the sort of hear we have now (or better). Not having that made him a dumb chump, yes.

Honestly, the reason I fear new enemies will be stronger is because it would make sense, because it would make for a better story (IMO) and because I hope it will happen.
Therefore, I act as if it will. It's hope, it's a hint, and it's better than salt.

Does this make any sense?

Click to shrink...

Yes, but it's self-destructive. You are, by word and dead, reaffirming the current course by treating it as if it will get better on it's own, if we just soldier on.

I can list a ton of examples for this exact same thing happening in other circumstances, but it never ends well.

A thought: if you want to make Viserys weaker, the obvious thing to do is to hit him with a Disjunction, or have Tiamat divinely grab a pile of his gear as soon as we step within her temple, or something.
A lot of our power (and of the power of our Companions) rests in preparation and numbers, yes. But it's also gear. Gear for our saves, stats, versatility, defenses... We are fighting a number of enemies capable of preparing and/or shitting out a pile of Dysjunctions. I regularly expect Efreet, Deep Ones or Tiamat to pull that shit.

It would be annoying from a player perspective, but it makes a lot of sense! And we could certainly make a lot of that back in a few months, of course, but time lost is time lost and money lost is money lost (and increased vulnerability during those months).
Oh, and of course DP can always invent a "too much enchanted stuff on one person is dangerous" houserule, and have us discover it simply by putting on one item too many.

Click to shrink...

Either that or just copy the cheese to have equally broken defenses and then concentrate on AoE attacks to murder weaker Companions as fast as possible. That binds resources that are expended to try and save the weaker members and ultimately levels the playing field once they are gone.

Mega-Aerys was meant to get multiple attacks that would have hit 5+ enemies for exactly this reason.

 

[MTB]

Aren't we using Spellbane to protect versus Disjunction?

 

[BronzeTongue]

@BronzeTongue, your arguments are centered around the idea that Viserys is some kind of nigh-invulnerable Mary-Sue that everyone keeps underestimating. You are completely ignoring the question "should he be this much more powerful then everyone else in the first place?". Furthermore, my argument is that this hurts the story as a story. Internal logic isn't the point here. A story can be 100% internally consistent and still have glaring flaws.

Also, my argument isn't that enemies should be stronger. I have given up on that front long, long ago, since the thread has gotten so used to being invulnerable that it's far too late to change anything.
But that doesn't mean the story shouldn't at least acknowledge this state of affairs.

My issue is the dissonance between what we see on screen and what the screen tells us about itself.
Battles that are over nigh immediately with next to zero danger are somehow treated as harrowing.
Viserys never suffered a meaningful defeat, always bouncing back from setbacks immediately and never loosing anything of personal value, yet he is portrayed as constantly imperiled. Sometimes. Sometimes the narrative completely forgets about anything out of the current scope.

There are more of these issues. But I'll cut it off here since I don't think this tangent is actually in any way useful. We had this talk often enough.

Corollary: There is a reason I'm no longer designing high-CR stuff for this thread.

Click to shrink...

Fair enough on letting the tangent go, I was writing up a longer reply but it probably wouldn't be helpful at this point. However I would like to point out that my argument isn't that Viserys is some invincible Mary Sue, but that he hasn't been that important to the right people in the right positions yet - and that this fact has been changing. You can get away with a lot if the people who can stop you are either unaware or don't give a damn about what you're doing.

edit: extra words.

 

[Azel]

Fair enough on letting the tangent go, I was writing up a longer reply but it probably wouldn't be helpful at this point. However I would like to point out that my argument isn't that Viserys is some invincible Mary Sue, but that he hasn't been that important to the right people in the right positions yet - and that this fact has been changing. You can get away with a lot if none of the people who can stop you are either unaware or don't give a damn about what you're doing.

Click to shrink...

Mammon had the motive, the power and the attention to murder Viserys and the entire party on the spot.

He was instead buried under idiot balls and killed in 6 seconds.

Evidence is disproving your theory.

 

[T_of_A]

Either that or just copy the cheese to have equally broken defenses and then concentrate on AoE attacks to murder weaker Companions as fast as possible. That binds resources that are expended to try and save the weaker members and ultimately levels the playing field once they are gone.

Mega-Aerys was meant to get multiple attacks that would have hit 5+ enemies for exactly this reason.

Click to shrink...

Fucking damnit. Not gonna lie, this is frustrating. I'm getting hyped, and then I remember that once again this is something that won't ever actually happen.
Sort of like the Deep One attack on Braavos.

 

[Azel]

Fucking damnit. Not gonna lie, this is frustrating. I'm getting hyped, and then I remember that once again this is something that won't ever actually happen.
Sort of like the Deep One attack on Braavos.

Click to shrink...

Sorry? I guess?

Technically I could run this encounter as a non-canon omake series, but playing both sides in such a conflict would be definitely too much effort for me, especially since I don't really know all that much about non-core Companions abilities.

 

[T_of_A]

Technically I could run this encounter as a non-canon omake series

Click to shrink...

Yeah, no, don't bother.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Mammon had the motive, the power and the attention to murder Viserys and the entire party on the spot.

He was instead buried under idiot balls and killed in 6 seconds.

Evidence is disproving your theory.

Click to shrink...

He rolled up to a specially prepared position to fight people planning to go after him because he thought he could handle anything mortals could throw at him. He still would have won (or caused serious harm) if it wasn't for a few good rolls early on that stopped him from dragging a companion or two back to hell with him.

If we tried to summon him again we'd end up mounted over his mantle, or as a particularly shiny centerpiece for his banquet hall. His follow ups have been weak because he has a hard time acting on this plane and the ridicule of his peers probably comes in the form of high stakes shadow wars. Plus, we got kicked upstairs to the boss because management didn't want him embarrassing the company any more.

Asmodeus is active on the plane, and his casual opener was to set up a minion to throw armies horrific monsters at us. I don't expect to see his next attempt until it's burned down half of SD.

This is what I'm talking about when I say becoming more important. On the time scales these guys act on, we're a low roll on the encounter table their minions are rolling against. Most of our enemies who care are stealthy or are only just now getting the local logistics to hit back without losing more than they gain to follow up attacks by other factions.

 

[T_of_A]

I'll always be bitter about Mammon not rolling up with a mountain of buffs and gear. There's no rationalising our way around "Mammon the ancient evil turned out to be a rash dumbass, a prince of Greed who isn't constantly blinged-out".

EDIT: The actual updates were cool and I liked them. It's the encounter design I have issues with, not the writing.

 

[BronzeTongue]

I'll always be bitter about Mammon not rolling up with a mountain of buffs and gear. There's no rationalising our way around "Mammon the ancient evil turned out to be a rash dumbass, a prince of Greed who isn't constantly blinged-out".

EDIT: The actual updates were cool and I liked them. It's the encounter design I have issues with, not the writing.

Click to shrink...

He was blinged out though, relative to the task. That whole avatar was basically a pimping RC car he drove around because he thought he'd be running over ants. We don't put on full buffs to talk to Westerosi lords, and we likely wouldn't bother with full combat buffs to kill a mundane knight either.

 

[Azel]

Asmodeus is active on the plane, and his casual opener was to set up a minion to throw armies horrific monsters at us. I don't expect to see his next attempt until it's burned down half of SD.

Click to shrink...

Please don't remind me. That whole shebang was my design and I shudder to imagine what will become of it.

Given that the main twist of the plot has been thrown out long before anything got even going there and that evidence points to the whole thing being now run in easy-mode again by using dipshits as minions... bah...

@TalonofAnathrax, you know not the sting of true frustration.

 

[Azel]

He was blinged out though, relative to the task. That whole avatar was basically a pimping RC car he drove around because he thought he'd be running over ants. We don't put on full buffs to talk to Westerosi lords, and we likely wouldn't bother with full combat buffs to kill a mundane knight either.

Click to shrink...

Why are you both expecting more danger in the future, yet argue breathlessly why it was so sensible that Viserys could rofl-stomp major threats with impunity so far?

I would also like to point out that the moment when Archdukes of Hell personally interact with you, you are quite obviously not "unimportant chaff" anymore.

 

[T_of_A]

Winning is nice. Sometimes losing is nice too, of course, especially when we didn't prepare to hell and back.

 

[Goldfish]

I'll always be bitter about Mammon not rolling up with a mountain of buffs and gear. There's no rationalising our way around "Mammon the ancient evil turned out to be a rash dumbass, a prince of Greed who isn't constantly blinged-out".

EDIT: The actual updates were cool and I liked them. It's the encounter design I have issues with, not the writing.

Click to shrink...

Personally, I've always chalked that up to his Avatar being a hasty manifestation made on short notice. Avatars aren't normally left to their own devices, since they represent a not insignificant investment in power and also a method to more easily divest them of some of their power through violence. Mammon's Avatar showing up buffed to the gills would have made the fight more difficult, but also would not have fit the rushed nature of the encounter.

It would have made more sense if it had more gear, IMO, but that's just standard D&D monster MO. The Avatar was more geared than most high level monsters you'll ever see in a Monster Manual, Demon Lords included.