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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Do we have a plan for the PR problems we talked about last time this came up? Not that the optics are a reason to avoid ever making them, but if that worshipful fixation on dragons comes through in our version it could be trouble.

Viserys has a lot of social credit, but he's still emperor of a nation with a huge population of first generation freed slaves. They'll get twitchy about it, and the less we do to remove that feature or otherwise reassure them the more credit we'll burn just having them around.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Do we have a plan for the PR problems we talked about last time this came up? Not that the optics are a reason to avoid ever making them, but if that worshipful fixation on dragons comes through in our version it could be trouble.

Viserys has a lot of social credit, but he's still emperor of a nation with a huge population of first generation freed slaves. They'll get twitchy about it, and the less we do to remove that feature or otherwise reassure them the more credit we'll burn just having them around.
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We could use some minor Clerics of Viserys though, from our next Mythic tier onwards.
That came up too.
 
@DragonParadox, can you make my Forge Mechanics page into an information post? I've included all the information we have on the Forges, how they operate, and the various orders we placed last month.

I keep a link in my signature, but it might be easier for folks to find as an information post.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Do we have a plan for the PR problems we talked about last time this came up? Not that the optics are a reason to avoid ever making them, but if that worshipful fixation on dragons comes through in our version it could be trouble.

Viserys has a lot of social credit, but he's still emperor of a nation with a huge population of first generation freed slaves. They'll get twitchy about it, and the less we do to remove that feature or otherwise reassure them the more credit we'll burn just having them around.
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I'm not particularly eager to recreate Kobolds, but if we do, there shouldn't be any issue with them being overly worshipful of Dragons. IIRC, that's a cultural trait rather than an inborn instinct.
 
Kobolds are versatile, make good minions, grow and reproduce rather fast, have a hand for engineering, mining and industry in general, can be extremely loyal if treated well...

Also, why not? Nobody seems to mind the creation of full on True Dragons, so I'm not seeing the issue with creating some Kobolds as settlers and general purpose minions.
 
Artemis1992 said:
We could use some minor Clerics of Viserys though, from our next Mythic tier onwards.
That came up too.
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It's not about the utility, it's about how we want to reassure people we aren't going to create an underclass of purpose built slave creatures. This is an issue that will deeply touch one of the foundational cultural values and shared experiences of most imperial citizens.

If it's worth the trouble we should do it, but it'd be foolish to not pay attention to the risks and costs of doing so. If we proceed we need a solid plan on how we'll influence the politics of it if we can't remove the feature.

It's one of those basic precepts of dnd parties writ large; no loot is worth losing party cohesion. Just letting critters loose who openly worship us as a god will create religious schismatics internally, increase resistance and unrest in Westeros, and shake the trust we've built with the legions and the Imperium as a whole.

Ideally we never want to create a situation where the average person even needs to think on the idea that we make good decisions, and have their best interests in mind. I'm not saying we should write them off completely, but we need to have a game plan and be on top of the whole proceeding.


Goldfish said:
I'm not particularly eager to recreate Kobolds, but if we do, there shouldn't be any issue with them being overly worshipful of Dragons. IIRC, that's a cultural trait rather than an inborn instinct.
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I can't find anything specifying it as a racial trait, but I'm pretty sure it was brought up as one last time we talked about it. Maybe something to do with the creation process? If it doesn't then all of this is moot, but I thought not knowing how to deal with this problem was part of why we haven't made them yet.
 
Kobold are infamously the most OP race in all of D&D 3.5 (arguably).

Creating kobolds will immediately require a bunch of WOG relating to True Dragon cheese that was meant for boss monster but can now be applied to PC minions.

Edit : to be clear, I don't really want to create Kobolds. Although it would be cool to use them as handlers for our island of Valyrian Dragons... But now we have a Legion order for that!
 
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BronzeTongue said:
It's not about the utility, it's about how we want to reassure people we aren't going to create an underclass of purpose built slave creatures. This is an issue that will deeply touch one of the foundational cultural values and shared experiences of most imperial citizens.

If it's worth the trouble we should do it, but it'd be foolish to not pay attention to the risks and costs of doing so. If we proceed we need a solid plan on how we'll influence the politics of it if we can't remove the feature.

It's one of those basic precepts of dnd parties writ large; no loot is worth losing party cohesion. Just letting critters loose who openly worship us as a god will create religious schismatics internally, increase resistance and unrest in Westeros, and shake the trust we've built with the legions and the Imperium as a whole.

Ideally we never want to create a situation where the average person even needs to think on the idea that we make good decisions, and have their best interests in mind. I'm not saying we should write them off completely, but we need to have a game plan and be on top of the whole proceeding.



I can't find anything specifying it as a racial trait, but I'm pretty sure it was brought up as one last time we talked about it. Maybe something to do with the creation process? If it doesn't then all of this is moot, but I thought not knowing how to deal with this problem was part of why we haven't made them yet.
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The purpose build slave race that works tirelessly without complaint or payment would be the Leshies.

I would simply pay the kobolds for whatever jobs they do.
 
Azel said:
Kobolds are versatile, make good minions, grow and reproduce rather fast, have a hand for engineering, mining and industry in general, can be extremely loyal if treated well...

Also, why not? Nobody seems to mind the creation of full on True Dragons, so I'm not seeing the issue with creating some Kobolds as settlers and general purpose minions.
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I'm not opposed to creating them, but if we do it, we need to do it right. Kobolds can be really obnoxious, so indoctrinating them into the Imperial culture is important.
 
Azel said:
The purpose build slave race that works tirelessly without complaint or payment would be the Leshies.

I would simply pay the kobolds for whatever jobs they do.
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Lethy are not really a slave underclass, they get paid, at least the ones that cared about such things do, and if any of them get bored of material existence they can just walk into a forge and recycle their body into a new leshy while they join the Greendream again.
 
Goldfish said:
I'm not opposed to creating them, but if we do it, we need to do it right. Kobolds can be really obnoxious, so indoctrinating them into the Imperial culture is important.
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Well, obviously. Dumping your children wrought by SCIENCE into the wilderness to fend for themselves is how you get killed by them.
DragonParadox said:
Lethy are not really a slave underclass, they get paid, at least the ones that cared about such things do, and if any of them get bored of material existence they can just walk into a forge and recycle their body into a new leshy while they join the Greendream again.
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Which makes the argument about Kobolds becoming a slave underclass for no reason hold even less water.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Jan 11, 2020 at 11:52 AM, finished with 51 posts and 8 votes.
  • [X] Reinforcing the Reader
    -[X] Assign to Rodrik:
    --[X] 10 Rings of Protection from Evil, 10 Healing Belts, 10 Launchers, and 2 Crystal Masks of Detect Psionics to be distributed among his forces at his discretion, as well as a Sending Stone and Teleport Charm for emergencies. We can further provide him the services of our Mage-Smiths to produce minor enchanted arms and armor, as he needs.
    --[X] Supplement his Alchemical supplies with 200 flasks of Alchemist's Fire, 100 flasks of Liquid Ice, 100 Fungal Stun Vials, 100 doses of Sleep-Smoke, 400 doses of Healing Salve, 100 doses of Antiplague, 100 doses of Antitoxin, and 100 Auran Masks.
    --[X] Loan him the services of 1 Grand Dragon Turtle (CR 15), 2 Shadebreacher Sperm Whales (CR 12), 5 Advanced Druid Creature Lotus Leshy (CR 8), 5 Advanced Plant-Imbued Sea Drake (CR 10), 10 Advanced Druid Creature Seaweed Leshy (CR 6), and 10 Advanced Plant-Imbued Orca (CR 8).
    ---[X] We will also assign to him 1 Warden Bio-Construct (CR 6, Information Gathering Variant Seeker), 1 Caretaker Bio-Construct (CR 4, Guardian Variant Seeker), and 1 Slayer Bio-Construct (CR 7, Assassin Variant Seeker) to serve as his personal guards. The Slayer can remain hidden from sight by always nearby, ready to strike against any creature that moves against Rodrik, the Warden can act as his eyes and ears, and the Caretaker as both his shield and escape route, should it prove necessary.
    --[X] Ask Maester Qyburn to make Rodrik aware of the Undead creatures he has assembled, explain their potential usefulness against the Deep Ones, especially their immunity to mental tampering, and inquire into whether he would be willing to employ any of them in defense of the Iron Isles. There are a great variety available, some of which can pass for human with little trouble (the Black Knights) or as less worrisome Constructs (Helmeted Spitters), and even those which cannot be easily disguised can be kept tucked away in caves or even hidden beneath the waves when they are not needed.
    --[X] We will transport those Undead he decides upon, if any, along with the other servitors we are assigning to his service, using the Imperial Demiplane and a pair of temporary portal Gates.
    -[X] Once the defenses of the Iron Isles are seen to properly, return to Sorcerer's Deep and continue investigating as previously voted on, restoring the corpses of the various Deep Ones involved in the Volmark incident so that we may extract what information we can from them via Speak with the Dead.
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Azel said:
Well, obviously. Dumping your children wrought by SCIENCE into the wilderness to fend for themselves is how you get killed by them.

Which makes the argument about Kobolds becoming a slave underclass for no reason hold even less water.
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My point was less about morality (though I do have issues with the idea of things that can think being produced with built in slave collars) and more about appearances.

The truth is only as important as it is believed in cases like this. If we make a species that openly worships Viserys as a god from the proverbial womb, and don't take some steps to mitigate the political fallout, their actual level of freedom or payment won't matter.

Viserys has enough good will with his own people that they wouldn't immediately flip out, but just dumping them out there would seriously lean on it.

Assuming that this applies at all anyway. If goldfish is right then this isn't an issue. I don't have any problems with Kobolds specifically, I just want to avoid creating a mess we'll need to waste time cleaning up later.

@DragonParadox would fleshforged Kobolds have any inherit servility towards dragons, or is that a cultural thing?

[X] goldfish
 
BronzeTongue said:
My point was less about morality (though I do have issues with the idea of things that can think being produced with built in slave collars) and more about appearances.

The truth is only as important as it is believed in cases like this. If we make a species that openly worships Viserys as a god from the proverbial womb, and don't take some steps to mitigate the political fallout, their actual level of freedom or payment won't matter.

Viserys has enough good will with his own people that they wouldn't immediately flip out, but just dumping them out there would seriously lean on it.

Assuming that this applies at all anyway. If goldfish is right then this isn't an issue. I don't have any problems with Kobolds specifically, I just want to avoid creating a mess we'll need to waste time cleaning up later.

@DragonParadox would fleshforged Kobolds have any inherit servility towards dragons, or is that a cultural thing?

[X] goldfish
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Okay... what?

Where are you getting the "inbuilt slave collar" from? I've mentioned no such thing at all.

Where are you getting the idea that they will be "just dumped out there"? I do have some plans, but they rely on larger populations and 10,000 units is a good trial run if you make screws, not expensive sentients.

Lastly, a lot of culture and attitude information is not transferable to ASWAH. Our kobolds wouldn't live as oppressed and ignored gutter rats for millennia and turn largely CE for it. They would grow up in imperial culture as respected citizens and likely tend slightly towards LN.
 
Azel said:
Okay... what?

Where are you getting the "inbuilt slave collar" from? I've mentioned no such thing at all.

Where are you getting the idea that they will be "just dumped out there"? I do have some plans, but they rely on larger populations and 10,000 units is a good trial run if you make screws, not expensive sentients.

Lastly, a lot of culture and attitude information is not transferable to ASWAH. Our kobolds wouldn't live as oppressed and ignored gutter rats for millennia and turn largely CE for it. They would grow up in imperial culture as respected citizens and likely tend slightly towards LN.
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Pretty sure @BronzeTongue was commenting on whether or not the Kobolds would instinctively see Dragons as their gods, and if they did, would basically obey them as if they were slaves by default. That shouldn't be a concern, though.

10,000 Kobolds is way too many, though. Even at just 1/4 CR each, meaning we could grow four of them for just 225 IM, that would be 525,500 IM. Not only is that a huge amount of money to spend on Kobolds of all things, but it would simply be too many to properly introduce to Planetos at any given time. There aren't sufficient facilities to care for them or things for them to do. They'd end up running wild with little supervision.

I would much rather grow a smaller number, something like 1,000, then properly educate and acculturate them. Those 1,000 could then serve as the nucleus for future Kobold society, teaching those who come later, either through natural hatchings or additional Forge-grown generations, how to be, well, Imperial Kobolds. They reproduce and mature extremely fast, after all.
 
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@Goldfish, thank you for illustrating why I should not speak about things without a 4-year plan ready to post. :facepalm:

The figure of 10,000 was explicitly given as "too large for a trial run".

I'm not going to say anything on this anymore before the 4-year plan is done.
 
DragonParadox said:
Lethy are not really a slave underclass, they get paid, at least the ones that cared about such things do, and if any of them get bored of material existence they can just walk into a forge and recycle their body into a new leshy while they join the Greendream again.
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Alien hive mind god things. Very relatable to mortals, very understandable.

I figured the leshy consisted mostly of green dreamers who wanted a break from the green dream, or just wanted some legs to stretch after however many millenia as formless spirits.

Edit:
Kobolds are cool, and super useful.
 
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I have good memories of Kobold's from what little D&D I played prior to this quest. So as per the QM's last post there is no risk of them worshipping us out of the box, I would like to make a few of them, provided a decent plan is written up for it.

[X] goldfish
 
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