Well said.

BTW, I don't recall seeing your name around. Welcome aboard, if you're new.

And apologies if I've just forgotten about you. :oops:
Thanks. I am pretty new, my first post was around 10 days ago or so. I've posted here a few times since then, but for some reason they were locked for review by moderator for hours after I made them.


@Artemis1992 it's not just about legitimacy for Viserys, its about how the Emperor chooses to respond to defend his. He is useful for the same reason he is a potential problem; he is a political operative who has to be good at wielding soft power to stay alive. With his support a lot of doors are opened, with his opposition people could start boarding up windows; if we go with force we'll need to really lean in to it. Given the extra planar threats in we're facing playing patty cake with the Emperor instead of invading is a better call in terms of resource allocation.
 
"Likely not on a first meeting," Garin replies. "The court and the emperor both will need time to get our measure before any gifts can be exchanged, the Son of Heaven, of course, not engaging in anything as lowly as trade," he laughs.

If it is good enough for the Dragon Reborn, it is good enough for the Son of Heaven. :V
 
Wait so the face-saving gift giving ritual that exists...we have a trade fleet coming with some pretty interesting goods. Would they try to one-up that?
 
"Likely not on a first meeting," Garin replies. "The court and the emperor both will need time to get our measure before any gifts can be exchanged, the Son of Heaven, of course, not engaging in anything as lowly as trade," he laughs.

If it is good enough for the Dragon Reborn, it is good enough for the Son of Heaven. :V

There's a reason we planned to pay "bribes/tribute" as a matter of course with our trade fleet. Something so pedestrian as purchasing something from anyone even a little important in the Far East is laughable. They are more than happy to call you friend so long as you aren't embarrassing to deal with, and as it happens receiving gifts = not embarrassing. Counting coppers together and 'doing business' = embarrassing.

The actual merchant families would likely be more than happy to go over ledgers with us, though.
 
Wait so the face-saving gift giving ritual that exists...we have a trade fleet coming with some pretty interesting goods. Would they try to one-up that?
Probably, depending on how much we boost his own prestige during incoming talks. Generally seeming sophisticate and important, which is old hat for us, even if we aren't really much for it on a personal level.
 
Probably, depending on how much we boost his own prestige during incoming talks. Generally seeming sophisticate and important, which is old hat for us, even if we aren't really much for it on a personal level.
I'm very interested to see how they try to one-up a gift of Valyrian Steel weapons...
 
How do you guys want to play the official presentation to the imperial court, when it comes around? History is a big deal around here, even more so than it is in the west, right? Should we consider leaning on something deeper Valyria to establish Viserys? He does have the blood of a red dragon, and the scales to prove it. We could play that up and claim our right to rule from being one of the sole remaining inheritors of the red dragon flight. Amy is the only other contender, but his side lost in the revolution and he swore to us, so that puts Viserys at the top of the heap for free living reds. Sure, the old wyrms might object but they're dead and our ancestors took all their stuff, which is close enough to agreement for dragon purposes. Lord of the Red Flight is head and shoulders above any human claim of seniority; it'd be kind of fun to see them try to process being the younger polity for once.
 
I hope they don't try to throw any daughters at us.
We're adept enough to politely decline.
How do you guys want to play the official presentation to the imperial court, when it comes around? History is a big deal around here, even more so than it is in the west, right? Should we consider leaning on something deeper Valyria to establish Viserys? He does have the blood of a red dragon, and the scales to prove it. We could play that up and claim our right to rule from being one of the sole remaining inheritors of the red dragon flight. Amy is the only other contender, but his side lost in the revolution and he swore to us, so that puts Viserys at the top of the heap for free living reds. Sure, the old wyrms might object but they're dead and our ancestors took all their stuff, which is close enough to agreement for dragon purposes. Lord of the Red Flight is head and shoulders above any human claim of seniority; it'd be kind of fun to see them try to process being the younger polity for once.
The Red Dragon Flight lost its legitimacy when they fell to the Valyrians, and more to the point they were assholes so connecting ourselves to that empire won't do us any favors.
 
The connotations of "leader of the Red Dragonflight" aren't even remotely similar to those in Warcraft, if you've been paying attention.

For example you could call both just fire breathing monsters, one was charged with being long-living tyrants by a capricious and beyond cruel Godling to revel in their natural state of supremacy over all things that "crawled in the muck", the latter was charged with literally protecting the world.

Though I guess you could call Red Chromatics a dark echo of the above, since they actually did do that... but it was for revenge and greed.

Also no one really knows shit about True Dragons generally speaking, and it's niche and rare enough lore that even old scholars around the world probably generally know very little or nothing at all. Valyria was believed to have "risen from sheepherders". Which is so laughably different from their true origin story that it proves that most people are severely ignorant about how history occurred due to a combination of fact distortion by Valyria itself and the powers that be even when magic was at its height/too much time passing.

So claiming to be "the leader of the Red Dragonflight" would actually likely not cause a negative reaction. More likely it would be like a made-up title to most.
 
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We're adept enough to politely decline.

The Red Dragon Flight lost its legitimacy when they fell to the Valyrians, and more to the point they were assholes so connecting ourselves to that empire won't do us any favors.
The connotations of "leader of the Red Dragonflight" aren't even remotely similar to those in Warcraft, if you've been paying attention.

For example you could call both just fire breathing monsters, one was charged with being long-living tyrants by a capricious and beyond cruel Godling to revel in their natural state of supremacy over all things that "crawled in the muck", the latter was charged with literally protecting the world.

Though I guess you could call Red Chromatics a dark echo of the above, since they actually did do that... but it was for revenge and greed.

Also no one really knows shit about True Dragons generally speaking, and it's niche and rare enough lore that even old scholars around the world probably generally know very little or nothing at all. Valyria was believed to have "risen from sheepherders". Which is so laughably different from their true origin story that it proves that most people are severely ignorant about how history occurred due to a combination of fact distortion by Valyria itself and the powers that be even when magic was at its height/too much time passing.

So claiming to be "the leader of the Red Dragonflight" would actually likely not cause a negative reaction. More likely it would be like a made-up title to most.
I was thinking more in terms of age, and how funny it would be if we could convince them we were the senior polity. I realize that DnD reds are horrible most of the time, especially in this setting, though I'm not sure it matters for how people would react. The Valyrians seemed more like a change in leadership than behavior considering the stuff they did to people (Seekers just to name one case) and we lean on them for this kind of thing all the time. Point on how convincing anyone would be an exercise in futility though. If we actually tried it the best case scenario would be looking like one of those dictators who wears enough medals to get an AC bonus, worst case they go along with it because they think we're crazy.
 
To be fair this is not 'any mortal realm', its the largest and most prosperous realm in the world.
Is it really? Sure it's probably more prosperous than Westeros, but is Yi Ti really bigger, than the continent spanning realm that's the Seven Kingdoms? From what maps I can find, while Yi Ti is big, I'm not even sure if it's bigger than the North, and I'm certain it's smaller than the Seven Kingdoms combined.
 
I was thinking more in terms of age, and how funny it would be if we could convince them we were the senior polity. I realize that DnD reds are horrible most of the time, especially in this setting, though I'm not sure it matters for how people would react. The Valyrians seemed more like a change in leadership than behavior considering the stuff they did to people (Seekers just to name one case) and we lean on them for this kind of thing all the time. Point on how convincing anyone would be an exercise in futility though. If we actually tried it the best case scenario would be looking like one of those dictators who wears enough medals to get an AC bonus, worst case they go along with it because they think we're crazy.
This would only work for a very short term deception, and against a nation with much fewer resources than are available to the Emperor of Yi-Ti, even one who has relatively little control. It's much too easy to get pertinent information from Westeros and Western Essos, plus there are certain to be scholars relatively up to date on current events, to know the true history of Viserys and his family
Is it really? Sure it's probably more prosperous than Westeros, but is Yi Ti really bigger, than the continent spanning realm that's the Seven Kingdoms? From what maps I can find, while Yi Ti is big, I'm not even sure if it's bigger than the North, and I'm certain it's smaller than the Seven Kingdoms combined.
Maybe not in a true geographical sense, but I'm pretty sure that Yi-Ti is much more densely populated and the available land mass is used to a far greater degree compared to Westeros or Western Essos. Sure, Westeros is larger all on its own, but most of the continent is untamed wilderness, uninhabitable desert, or frozen near wasteland, and western Essos is even less utilized, thanks in large part to the Dothraki.

So for all practical purposes, Yi-Ti is "larger".
 
@Artemis1992, and everyone else who has trouble with summining Asmodeus' pawns...

I get it.
I'm kinda scared of turning his ire towards us too.

But Duesal has a good point there - we already had.
At this point, it doesn't matter what we do, he will reciprocate.

I'll have these Devils summoned.
But, pointedly, not questioned for yet more True Names, if y'all so scared.
Keeping in line with "only one step removed"-rule for summoning (which excepts Manmon).

Effectively, we'll be taking out these guys from the Ghiscari operations this way.
Which is only a good thing, no matter how one looks at it - we kinda have to slow them down in ever way we can.

Going further down the chain would, however, likely end up in us grabbing random devils of Asmodeus, and that would be kinda pointless.
 
DP said that what was 'generally known' was fairly complex, meaning there might be some people who only know dry old history of House Targaryen's rise (and subsequent fall if they were paying attention to recent events) and then rumors of some scion leftover causing a stir in the East.

Some might be paying close attention to recent events and know generally enough about who used to rule Westeros, as they are maritime families or merchant houses or some such, maybe some who have even seen our realm. But beyond general local hearsay, know little about Viserys.

And some might actually be mages and adventurers and spies and just generally people with access to local experts, having not only the best of the histories to peruse from, but also their thumb on the pulse of rumors and events occurring as they keep a close eye on things, in addition to the magical lore to make a guess of what "flight of fancy" might have several thousand tonnes of grains of truth to them, and which are patently false or don't adhere much to Viserys' character and clearly displayed MO.

With that in mind, assuming Bu Gai has the resources to keep abreast of things going on westward, and had his own available experts devote considerable resources even for our own institutions into researching what is actually accurate and what isn't, he might actually be fairly well briefed on what we're all about.

Thing is, what we're all about is kind of confusing and daunting. We've established diplomatic ties with two Genie Empires, fight asymmetric wars with fiendish cabals, and have conquered or annexed large regions in a matter of weeks at most.

So the closest metaphor that would make sense for most of the court if not Bu Gai would be Valyria Reborn, though paradoxically, the whole "free all the slaves" and "spread all the magic instead of concentrate it" might be making their heads spin a bit. The fact that it hasn't ended in chaos and death everywhere another source of confusion, since we just freed tens of millions of slaves over the course of a year and a bit. And they're A) staying freed and B) haven't caused the end of civilization. Oh and, trade is booming like never before. And out of every ten rumors about us, five of them are at least about how fuck-off rich we are.

"Rich as a Lannister" was a common saying even centuries prior when Valyria stood at its height.

We are pretty well at the point where tales of Lannister wealth are much less alluded to than the Dragon's Hoard.
 
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Don't forget to vote, y'all.
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Aug 27, 2019 at 7:06 PM, finished with 56 posts and 4 votes.

  • [X] Look for some of the elusive mages of Yin, if anyone can find them without being seen in turn it is you
    -[X] Also see what martial artists and monks there are that could be potentially hired
 
We could probably buy the entire area outright and turn it from merely the "Foreign Quarter" into the "Imperial Quarter" of the city.
That's probably going to happen by itself eventually, these mercants all come from the big trade cities near us if I understand correctly and, well, they all will be a part of the Empire even if they are against it.
 
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That's probably going to happen alone, these mercants all come from the big trade cities near us if I understand correctly and, well, they all will be a part of the Empire even if they are against it.
Yeah but right now those tradelinks are informal. Though we can leverage them individually by schmoozing/intimidating Magisters into manipulating the market as we wish through more official trade coalitions outside of Yin itself.
 
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