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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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How about the same arguments we had for Melissandre? Religion is not the whole truth but A Truth. Whatever they believe in and reaction to the truth is subject to the rules of the empire. That's why we're aiming to make a god out of the highways.
 
DragonParadox said:
That is not precisely her concern. It's wider. To articulate better:

There are many truly faithful people in the world, that faith is based on a lie, taking that away may be deeply personally damaging to then.
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How is it a lie though? The faithful are promised salvation and entry into Heaven, which is actually true. It just turns up that all those other promises of salvation and paradises from other gods happen to be just as valid.

I get that it would cause a negative, visceral gut feeling to hear their faith clinically dissected and explained like that, but at the end it doesn't contradict anything they believe. Quite the opposite, it validates it.

Your god(s) is/are real, your promised paradise is too and so is hell. All that is factually true, so sayeth the unbelievers. Now, the part about yours being the only true god(s) is false, but who cares? You have factual evidence that god exists, that your payers are heard and that there is an afterlife waiting for you.

Edit: Okay, maybe some people will be upset about losing their bragging rights - HA! I was right! My god exists and yours is false! - but if you joined religion just to brag about it, then you probably never really cared about it anyway.
 
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Algalon said:
How is it a lie though? The faithful are promised salvation and entry into Heaven, which is actually true. It just turns up that all those other promises of salvation and paradises from other gods happen to be just as valid.

I get that it would cause a negative, visceral gut feeling to hear their faith clinically dissected and explained like that, but at the end it doesn't contradict anything they believe. Quite the opposite, it validates it.

Your god(s) is/are real, your promised paradise is too and so is hell. All that is factually true, so sayeth the unbelievers. Now, the part about yours being the only true god(s) is false, but who cares? You have factual evidence that god exists, that your payers are heard and that there is an afterlife waiting for you.
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Well for one thing the Seven are not the only true gods and they did not create man and the world (both things the Seven Pointed Star teaches)
 
Well, my iPad are the dozen or so edits I'd suggest, but you need to add something to signal the septa woke up, DP. Look:
DragonParadox said:
Awaken sister and be not afraid." Her voice is starlight on still waters. "Know that the Seven-Who-Are-One watch over their faithful and I am but their messenger."

"How am I to know the messenger from that which I wish to hear, or worse yet from false counsel sweetest of all upon the tongue?" The woman asks, undaunted.
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Not even a second of blinking around.
 
Algalon said:
How is it a lie though? The faithful are promised salvation and entry into Heaven, which is actually true. It just turns up that all those other promises of salvation and paradises from other gods happen to be just as valid.

I get that it would cause a negative, visceral gut feeling to hear their faith clinically dissected and explained like that, but at the end it doesn't contradict anything they believe. Quite the opposite, it validates it.

Your god(s) is/are real, your promised paradise is too and so is hell. All that is factually true, so sayeth the unbelievers. Now, the part about yours being the only true god(s) is false, but who cares? You have factual evidence that god exists, that your payers are heard and that there is an afterlife waiting for you.

Edit: Okay, maybe some people will be upset about losing their bragging rights - HA! I was right! My god exists and yours is false! - but if you joined religion just to brag about it, then you probably never really cared about it anyway.
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Because when your Religion is full of assholes, and what you're doing isn't pious enough for them, that you can just 'sell out' to another religion and get the same reward, probably with equity because you're a new convert, it cheapens the whole thing.

Rather having to deal with other people's doctrinal arguments or persecution, the state says "you can have any religion you want? And there's no risk to you if you decide 'I'm tired of these rules, let's see what other Gods are selling?'

Granted pact breaking doesn't guarantee safety, but you could be a faithful adherent until one rule grows burdensome and then just convert, probably spending decades directing faithful worship, and still not have broken pact since you wouldn't be breaking that 'rule' until after becoming a follower of a God who deems it acceptable.

If you have that kind of agency in faith and the afterlife, it also causes people to question their lack of agency in other quarters as well. Why are they treated like shit by nobles? Why do they have this power? If one God is no different from another, divine mandate of heaven is bullshit, too.

It just makes people angry because it's more thinking than most of the "liar liar pants on fire" religions require of their followers.
 
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Why am I surprised by some of these replies? I know I shouldn't be.

This needs a delicate touch. Fortunately I need lunch and have a few hours to burn once that's done. I'll have a vote up in a bit.
 
DragonParadox said:
That is not precisely her concern. It's wider. To articulate better:

There are many truly faithful people in the world, that faith is based on a lie, taking that away may be deeply personally damaging to then.
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Bohoo

It's been confirmed that in ASWAH the higher-ups in the Church play political games and allow for massive corruption in their ranks. Even worse: we know that they are opposed to efforts to actually help the poor, as the Chosen of the Maiden discovered! Charity to the destitute may encourage immorality, after all. Especially if they're unmarried women or were once prostitutes : those people just deserve to die, helping them would be a slippery slope towards anarchy and the breakdown of the social order (in which I'm at the top and all these dumbasses are at the bottom, knowing that they'll starve and suffer if they don't obey and conform).

The Church is also a very negative influence on society, from our PoV. The positive influences of the Church are unnecessary in an Empire with proper education, propaganda, rule of law and judicial institutions, while the negative aspect of having a powerful organised religion oppressing your noncomforming citizens (like spellcasters!!!) will remain.

And then of course there's the fact that a short-term loss (some of our more zealous subjects will have a crisis of faith) is absolutely worth the long-term advantage of having an educated population and not having the Church as a major political power.

No, here's the plan: we splinter, we educate, and if needed we crush any terrorists or rebels.
 
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Snowfire said:
Why am I surprised by some of these replies? I know I shouldn't be.

This needs a delicate touch. Fortunately I need lunch and have a few hours to burn once that's done. I'll have a vote up in a bit.
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I was just thinking 'this sounds like a Snowfire' issue to solve.

[X] Snowfire
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Bohoo

It's been confirmed that in ASWAH the higher-ups in the Church play political games and allow for massive corruption in their ranks. Even worse: we know that they are opposed to efforts to actually help the poor, as the Chosen of the Maiden discovered! Charity to the destitute may encourage immorality, after all. Especially if they're unmarried women or were once prostitutes : those people just deserve to die, helping them would be a slippery slope towards anarchy and the breakdown of the social order (in which I'm at the top and all these dumbasses are at the bottom, knowing that they'll starve and suffer if they don't obey and conform).

The Church is also a very negative influence on society, from our PoV. The positive influences of the Church are unnecessary in an Empire with proper education, propaganda, rule of law and judicial institutions, while the negative aspect of having a powerful organised religion oppressing your noncomforming citizens (like spellcasters!!!) will remain.

And then of course there's the fact that a short-term loss (some of our more zealous subjects will have a crisis of faith) is absolutely worth the long-term advantage of having an educated population and not having the Church as a major political power.

No, here's the plan: we splinter, we educate, and if needed we crush any terrorists or rebels.
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MaekarTargaryenSmashingRebels.jpg

All of this.

Smashing rebellions is a Targaryen tradition. We need to make our uncle proud!!
 
Goldfish said:
I was just thinking 'this sounds like a Snowfire' issue to solve.

[X] Snowfire
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I've got nothing against Snowfire writing a pretty vote to make Daenerys feel better or to minimse internal strife by couching things as tactfully as possible to our citizens, but I'm against any efforts to preserve this corrupt, incompetent and hostile institution.

EDIT: Killing the Seven would be nice. Their followers would just go to some other heaven or hell, and meanwhile they wouldn't be empowering evil oppressive assholes and upholding a shitty socioeconomic system. And think of the Mythic Ranks we could loot!
 
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While we will splinter the faith and while we will teach them about the afterlife(s) the way we teach certainly shouldn't effect too much of their beliefs. Although the only god and the creator of the world stick won't really stick because Yss was old when their religion was barely a twinkle in the eyes of their followers.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Bohoo

It's been confirmed that in ASWAH the higher-ups in the Church play political games and allow for massive corruption in their ranks. Even worse: we know that they are opposed to efforts to actually help the poor, as the Chosen of the Maiden discovered!

The Church is also a very negative influence on society, from our PoV. The positive influences of the Church are unnecessary in an Empire with proper education, propaganda, rule of law and judicial institutions, while the negative aspect of having a powerful organised religion oppressing your noncomforming citizens (like spellcasters!!!) will remain.

And then of course there's the fact that a short-term loss (some of our more zealous subjects will have a crisis of faith) is absolutely worth the long-term advantage of having an educated population and not having the Church as a major political power.

No, here's the plan: we splinter, we educate, and if needed we crush any terrorists or rebels.
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This is not really about the church any single church, the faithful of say The Great Shepard would be just as troubled as those of the Seven. If you take the certainties of tens of thousands, millions o people and shatter them in a world with dark things more than willing to take advantage of that betrayal and despair.
 
DragonParadox said:
This is not really about the church any single church, the faithful of say The Great Shepard would be just as troubled as those of the Seven. If you take the certainties of tens of thousands, millions o people and shatter them in a world with dark things more than willing to take advantage of that betrayal and despair.
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Does the Great Shepherd not have clerics to point out while part of their religion was a lie, the god and his afterlife stiff exist?
 
If you think the followers of the Seven are going to have an existential crisis, imagine all the Burny worshipers in Essos. His doctrine is even more poisonous than that of the Seven.

I think we just need to educate the muggles organically, from the ground up, so to speak. Don't try to cram knowledge down the adults' throats, but don't hide it either. Educate the younger generation consistently and correctly and let the unrelenting march of time wash away the ignorance.
 
DragonParadox said:
People do not really belong to religions solely out of an expectation of reward. It's part of how they define themselves and the world.
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Their religion can still continue. Just... A little different. Their priests can either deny the truth (bad idea when it means going up against us, but why not) or they can start editing their dogma.
If you can count on religious folk for one thing, it's that they're good at making things fit with their faith. That's about half of why people keep a priesthood around! They'll figure it out.

Worst case we can always promise that there's a Dragon Heaven (and build it) :D
Or strengthen the Inquisition! Spread positive messages about the existence of heaven and the horrors inflicted by devils upon their summoners!
 
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TalonofAnathrax said:
No, here's the plan: we splinter, we educate, and if needed we crush any terrorists or rebels.
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While my inner 14 year old feverently agrees, my shoulder Azel is recommending this be handled with the lightest possible touch, and it would much simpler for everyone if we are never seen (in the eyes of the general public anyway) to directly crush the faith. Madmen, lunatics, terrorists, absolutely; but it needs to appear as if we are attacking them for endangering the piece, not for their fundamentalism.

I am not down for letting the judeo-christian analogue play the part of the victim, that's proven far too much of an effective strategy for them IRal to allow here.
 
Ignorance can just as easily be exploited by Devils or Daemons or whatever as depression or bitterness.
 
DragonParadox said:
People do not really belong to religions solely out of an expectation of reward. It's part of how they define themselves and the world.
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The part about defining themselves and the world through religion might be true, but at the same time a big part of why people follow those religions is due to the promised rewards.

A better afterlife, favor with their deity, a better next life, etc.

If a religion just showed up without any of said promises, it would probably die off unnoticed within a few generations as what few followers there are drop dead one after another. Every single successful religion promises something. It's a vital component for indoctrination.

Granted, I know plenty of atheists who just don't give a damn and go to church with their families and go through all the motions. They wholeheartedly believe what they're hearing is false, so I guess the community aspect of it is important to them? That or they simply can't be bothered to fight their families over it.
 
Acolyte said:
Yo people are none of you deeply religious. Cause destroying someones faith sounds really really bad to me. Like seriously whats with the hate for faith.
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We don't hate faith, but the Faith. In this case, the Faith of the Seven, Burny, etc. It's a D&D cosmology thing...the way the universe works isn't what the big Planetosi religions have been telling people for thousands of years, so there is some concern that the truth will not agree with some folks' indoctrination.
 
Acolyte said:
Yo people are none of you deeply religious. Cause destroying someones faith sounds really really bad to me. Like seriously whats with the hate for faith.
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For all that I happen to not be religious in the slightest, I have no hate for faith.

However, in this setting, there is an objective truth of the universe and the nature of the afterlife and of gods. If major religions have lied about it, I'm not exactly in support of helping with the lie.

The Faith of the Seven and the Faith of R'hllor for example both say that their gods are the only gods. That's easily disprovable.
 
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