I don't think @Crake was implying that not killing one's abductor implies consent, more that she could have grown into an unhealthy dependency and rationalization which is sadly very posibile, certainly something Viserys would consider IC.
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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I don't think @Crake was implying that not killing one's abductor implies consent, more that she could have grown into an unhealthy dependency and rationalization which is sadly very posibile, certainly something Viserys would consider IC.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Although I am a trained Anthropologist, I have never subscribed to the ridiculous notion of cultural relativity.
We didn't pardon slavers because it was their cultural heritage, we did so out of sheer pragmatism. At the time, we could not afford to kill every slavery for a variety of reasons.
Things have changed, however, and we have little reason for leniency now, especially when such soft-hearted actions will alienate Mors, a man we would like to enter our service.
- Location
- Japan, The Big Town
I agree that there may be these kinds of issues. But I really don't think
"So either she already killed the guy, or they have a relatively amicable relationship."
Is referencing that kind of thing.
"amicable relationship" in an unhealthy dependency is anything from generally feeling that you deserve your circumstances, which is reinforced by the nature of your surroundings, to daily beatings, that keep someone in line, with the implicit or explicit threat to get worse of they attempt to do anything that upsets there captor.
In situations of polygamy, there is also the possibility of the captor fostering competitiveness between his captees. Which would result in them attempting to gain the favor of the abuser, in the face of otherwise potentially being able to band together and overthrow him.
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Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
@TalonofAnathrax This is essentially what I meant, did not intend to cause offense. I greatly anticipated that things would not be so straight forward, nor did I expect the initial interaction nor any further interactions implied consent if it didn't end in murder, only that it is likely he was behaving in a way that made her grow attached (perhaps unhealthily).
- Location
- Germany
The solution to this whole thing is pretty simple. Wife-kidnapping doesn't mean the family of the woman has to accept the whole thing. Let Mors simply challenge the abductor to a duel and beat him into a red smear on the ground. Preferably with his daughters approval.
Done.
No need to set every Thenn within ten miles on fire. We can have perfectly normal diplomatic relations with them after this.
Done.
No need to set every Thenn within ten miles on fire. We can have perfectly normal diplomatic relations with them after this.
tarrangar
Fat arctic chicken
It's because Mors want revenge, that I was trying to find a compromise instead of just pardoning him, because we rather do need to pardon wife-stealers, as we don't want to slaughter the Wildlings, and most adult male Wildlings are wife-stealers, unless you want to argue that it's a bigger crime, to abduct women from the North as opposed to Wildling women, I certainly don't, I don't want to effectively say, that Wildling women have less rights than other women.
- Location
- Japan, The Big Town
The only way it gets better is for the abused to be removed from the situation. In the modern day world, we consider things such as personal responsibility and autonomy. Which unfortunately allow people to choose to continue to place themselves in that situation.
Whether you consider it fortunate, or unfortunate. We are not bound by those particular rules.
- Location
- United States
@DragonParadox, were any of the Thenn's bronze gear enchanted?
I have high hopes for upgrading Waymar's armor with lore from them.
I have high hopes for upgrading Waymar's armor with lore from them.
No way to see though the scrying spell.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
Point of order on this. It's a lot more complicated than that. When people build up dependency, in the way that these relationships create, they have to want to escape it to change. Just taking someone away from that situation doesn't help. Oh, in the short term, maybe it might. But in the long term, all you're doing is subjecting a person to a more elaborate form of psychological torture by removing the anchor stones that they've built themselves around out of necessity. That sort of mental construction isn't healthy, no, but you can't just rip them down and force someone to build new ones without being literally just as bad as the person who made them do it in the first place.
Whilst it's undeniable that on some level every person dependent like this wants to escape, humans are exceptionally good at deception when it comes to our own feelings. We force those feelings down, lock them away, and throw away the key. Once that's done, the only way for someone to healthily free themselves is to deliberately seek out those parts of themselves. Abuse survivors never survive as the people they once were. They're never whole again, the mental and emotional trauma leaves its mark as firmly as any physical scar. But the difference is that in the field of mental and emotional wounds, a person has to want to heal to get better.
It's why breaking someone on the inside will always be so much more lasting and effective than doing so on the outside. And yes, that's not nice. But it's also human.
- Location
- Germany
- Location
- United States
At CL 19 that's a 95% chance.
From now on we shall scout for loot.
They shall be added to the collection one way or another. That is authentic First Men craftsmanship.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
I mean yeah, technically speaking whatever harm we cause, we could think about it in rather medieval terms. "It's Mors' daughter, a Lord who's loyalty I want to secure. I don't technically have to give two shits about what she desires," it just seems rather out of character for Viserys not to seriously consider all potential obstacles towards getting her consent.
He's pretty big on actually making sure interpersonal problems are solved in the longterm, if only so he doesn't have to deal with them later when he wants to do something with those people but it is getting in the way.
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- Location
- Germany
I personally have very deep issues with the habit of people to assign labels like "abused" and "unhealthy" on situations they have literally no idea about. You are a priori asserting that her opinion on things doesn't matter, because she is "abused" and thus incapable of making her own choices until you "fixed" her.
- Location
- United States
More or less this. We need to gather intel and actually get her take on things before deciding on anything. The most we can promise Mors is taking him to see his daughter, but beyond that we need to be free to adapt. Mors would be nice, but the Thenns are more valuable to us than Mors. They're the last bastion of First Men lore that we haven't yet gotten.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
[X] Azel
To be honest, my personal dislike of Wildlings (too Chaotic for my taste) and consideration of burning them all so that Others don't get to raise any aside, I have about zero fucks to give about this whole situation and "abusive" relationships present here.
To be honest, my personal dislike of Wildlings (too Chaotic for my taste) and consideration of burning them all so that Others don't get to raise any aside, I have about zero fucks to give about this whole situation and "abusive" relationships present here.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
As I stated originally, we don't know her situation. She could have been rescued or taken in by the Thenns after escaping her captors. The assumption that they are her captors is not necessarily incorrect, but chances are that they are not. The Thenns don't do much raiding, IIRC.
If she has made a life for herself and is happy where she's at, I'm perfectly happy leaving her be.
- Location
- Germany
Unless her husband is a total asshole, his daughter and grandson will likely resent Mors for killing him.
I personally don't care about that, but it would be rather hilarious if the whole "fixing" thing ends with a greater mess then before.
And that's basically what I want. If she is happy as things are, we need to calm Mors tits, not go reverse-kidnapping with a side-order of murder.
- Location
- Brazil
That something I wanted to touch upon. Where does Stockholm Syndrome changes to the real deal, so to speak?
Or is Stockholm's defined by it being virtually always the source of it, @Snowfire ? As in, you can never build legitimate bonds with those who hold such power over you? It's all rooted in this particular phenomenon?
Because yeah, she might be horribly abused and grasping at straws. But it's been thirteen years, she has a young boy and seems to be content. Could it be a legitimate case of loving the father, by now?
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- Location
- United States
Taking Mors to see his daughter is where our promise to him ends. I am all for talking him down, or if we're forced to, making him stand down.
As I said before, the Thenns are more important to us than Mors.
That said I'm reasonably confident that we can convince him not to murder everything in sight.