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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Azel said:
Frankly, since I do most of the bookkeeping here these days, I feel perfectly justified in handwaving away people wanting to track 50 people and 200 IM every month.

My issue is that there is ambiguity on pretty high-level stuff that a good bunch of people care about and which would actually help to make votes clearer. I for one would gladly make a map for such a Disputed Lands vote, so that everyone can just see it right beneath the vote and we can have a sensible vote and discussion about it.

Because you are here stating the assumption that we seized territory from Lys and Myr, which was never officially done. That is an issue. Not 200 IM a month to pay some NPC
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And amusingly you focused on an example of handwaving an aspect of your pet focus.
 
Deliste said:
Yet Dragons are top dog on every plane for a reason, so these armies really shouldn't be able to take down one in it's prime with a handful of regulars for that to remain true should they?

Maybe it doesn't make sense to anyone else but I'd actually be more comfortable with this if they weren't so normal, make them freakish at least a little.
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The dragon was a really bad comparison. Take one of the CR10 animals that cannot fly. Because the dragon would have to be on the earth, not notice the Praetorians approaching, ceding initiative and not using magic/fly/breath.
 
Azel said:
What do you mean?
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Economics.

A personal recent example so as not to speak for anyone else incorrectly, I cared that you tried to use scholars touch to get an in depth understanding of detailed written work when it explicitly does not give that, I supplied the tools to effectively do what you were trying to and you felt that it was arbitrary.

Not Economics, handwaved by you.
 
Deliste said:
Economics.

A personal recent example so as not to speak for anyone else incorrectly, I cared that you tried to use scholars touch to get an in depth understanding of detailed written work when it explicitly does not give that, I supplied the tools to effectively do what you were trying to and you felt that it was arbitrary.

Not Economics, handwaved by you.
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That was commune with texts, not scholar's touch I think.
 
To add onto the territory issue, I'm honestly unsure as to if most of the thread gives a damn about the exact lines on a map. Full definition for me certainly lies far, far deeper down the granularity tree than I care for. I don't think that saying people don't care about the borders is fair. I think it's more that there's no great desire to draw precise lines on the map.

Lys is Lys, Myr is Myr, the Undisputed Lands will be themselves. We should be fully capable of just saying this and allowing for our fledgling Imperial government to handle the rest. It's below the level of abstraction that we really need to act on.
 
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Yeah, I really don't care and would like to keep it abstracted please.

EDIT: Knowing how many governors we need would be nice, as would a list of their names. But exact borders? Whatever.
 
Deliste said:
Economics.

A personal recent example so as not to speak for anyone else incorrectly, I cared that you tried to use scholars touch to get an in depth understanding of detailed written work when it explicitly does not give that, I supplied the tools to effectively do what you were trying to and you felt that it was arbitrary.

Not Economics, handwaved by you.
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Fair enough, though that's less handwaving and more me not caring about casting sequences and buff schemes when it's not time-critical.

These discussions tend to meander on for pages and I have no particular desire to constantly change and amend 500 words of social plan because of a particular spell that won't even be mentioned in the update.

Compromise offer:
Next time, give me a full bullet point I just need to copy.
 
Deliste said:
And amusingly you focused on an example of handwaving an aspect of your pet focus.
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I really don't understand the point of this argument. Actually, looking over the last six pages of thread posts I missed while sleeping, you seem to be have a problem with basically every topic that has been discussed, in some form or other. I apologize if that isn't quite the case, and I've only been awake and caffeinated for a few minutes, but it really does seem that you are being deliberately contrary.

On this particular topic, it is not "handwaving" anything when we no longer focus on tiny currency transfers such as paying small amounts to NPCs, or any other random expenditure. It's a coping mechanism to prevent our bookkeeping from being bogged down in pointless minutia and adding a ridiculous amount of work for no good reason. At our current level of wealth, and compared to our regular monthly expenses, anything less than a thousand IM barely amounts to a rounding error.
 
Look, @Azel would you be willing to work with the suggestion from @TalonofAnathrax perhaps? It at least gets the job done, and the frenchy is (I feel) correct. Exact borders are something that can be abstracted, because at the end of the day, the exact placement of the lines don't matter.
 
Azel said:
Frankly, since I do most of the bookkeeping here these days, I feel perfectly justified in handwaving away people wanting to track 50 people and 200 IM every month.

My issue is that there is ambiguity on pretty high-level stuff that a good bunch of people care about and which would actually help to make votes clearer. I for one would gladly make a map for such a Disputed Lands vote, so that everyone can just see it right beneath the vote and we can have a sensible vote and discussion about it.

Because you are here stating the assumption that we seized territory from Lys and Myr, which was never officially done. That is an issue. Not 200 IM a month to pay some NPC
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I don't know how many other people care about this particular issue, but I do.

If it isn't too much trouble, a vote to firm up our understanding of what exactly constitutes an Imperial Province, state, territory, or whatever else we call it, would be appreciated. We don't have to get ridiculously detailed, but halfway decent borders and a standardized title of the appointed overseer (governor, overlord, minister, whatever, etc.) doesn't seem excessive to me.
 
So I'm seeing a lot of people who don't particularly care about the borders thing, but:
1. The issue Azel brought up isn't just the maps, it's things like not knowing what is the 'Governer of Lys' supposed to be doing, which DP mentioned is affecting the narrative.
2. If you don't care, and Azel does and it would help him keep things straight in the bookkeeping (and thus out of your way, ultimately), what's the issue with letting him work up something?
Alternatively you could offer to take over that part of the bookkeeping, but asking Azel to not do the thing which would make this task easier for himself without offering to help alleviate the issue some other way when you admittedly don't really care that much about it is... sort of shitty.
 
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egoo said:
Tldr: Praetorians got nerfed on all fronts, making them almost unviable in the long term, and picking names is a shitshow around here every single time.

Imma go and have some sleep.
Try not to saltsplode while I'm away, ya'll :/
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What are you talking about? o_O

The Praetorians didn't get nerfed at all.
 
Goldfish said:
I don't know how many other people care about this particular issue, but I do.

If it isn't too much trouble, a vote to firm up our understanding of what exactly constitutes an Imperial Province, state, territory, or whatever else we call it, would be appreciated. We don't have to get ridiculously detailed, but halfway decent borders and a standardized title of the appointed overseer (governor, overlord, minister, whatever, etc.) doesn't seem excessive to me.
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Agreed. I'd also like an actual order of precedence for our nobility that isn't just "Lord." Different ranks in the hierarchy should carry different responsibilities and be called different things because of that.
 
Sqweaktoy said:
So I'm seeing a lot of people who don't particularly care about the borders thing, but.
1. The issue Azel brought up isn't just the maps, it's things like not knowing what is the 'Governer of Lys' supposed to be doing, which DP mentioned is affecting the narrative.
2. If you don't care, and Azel does and it would help him keep things straight in the bookkeeping (and thus out of your way, ultimately), what's the issue with letting him work up something?
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Good summary. I don't care so much about particular lines on a map so much as about what various people are supposed to do, how they interact with the rest of the administration and how much power and responsibility they have.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
How much AC does Dragon barding give? I can't seem to find it anywhere. Is it a pathfinder thing?
I'm editing the sheet now. I'm leaving the mithral armor on the caster version, but putting the non-caster in reinforced segmented Valyrian steel full plate.
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Sorry if I missed someone else answering this. The answer is basically "not much".

According to the rules for barding, flying creatures can't fly in anything heavier than Light armor. If that is the case for Valyrian Dragons, then the best we can hope for them would be the equivalent to a Chain Shirt. A +4 AC bonus is better than nothing, though.
 
Snowfire said:
To add onto the territory issue, I'm honestly unsure as to if most of the thread gives a damn about the exact lines on a map. Full definition for me certainly lies far, far deeper down the granularity tree than I care for. I don't think that saying people don't care about the borders is fair. I think it's more that there's no great desire to draw precise lines on the map.

Lys is Lys, Myr is Myr, the Undisputed Lands will be themselves. We should be fully capable of just saying this and allowing for our fledgling Imperial government to handle the rest. It's below the scale that we really need to act on.
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Which is why I made that easily changeable map stack a while ago. To remove ambiguity and define large scale sections to talk about instead of expecting people to draw lines.

This is what such a vote would amount to:
[] Make a new governorship containing the Western, Southern and Northern Disputed Lands and give it to Uthero.

The borders of these areas a predefined and I just amend the maps afterwards to state that this is now Utheros turf.

Likewise defining noble ranks. It's a obe time agreement so that we later just need to say "Uthero is now Governor" and this automatically means he will be the non-hereditary ruler of an area with underlings called [Something] and that he is equal in social rank to, say, Hermetia, but below, say, the Sealord. Don't like the non-hereditary part? "Make Uthero Archon". Done.

And the thing is, I gladly did all the work for that so that these narratively important choices can be made easily and unambiguously, with the Office of Handwavium taking care of the rest. But, you know, can't say someone is a count.
 
Goldfish said:
Sorry if I missed someone else answering this. The answer is basically "not much".

According to the rules for barding, flying creatures can't fly in anything heavier than Light armor. If that is the case for Valyrian Dragons, then the best we can hope for them would be the equivalent to a Chain Shirt. A +4 AC bonus is better than nothing, though.
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Also: it looks swag.
 
Azel said:
Which is why I made that easily changeable map stack a while ago. To remove ambiguity and define large scale sections to talk about instead of expecting people to draw lines.

This is what such a vote would amount to:
[] Make a new governorship containing the Western, Southern and Northern Disputed Lands and give it to Uthero.

The borders of these areas a predefined and I just amend the maps afterwards to state that this is now Utheros turf.

Likewise defining noble ranks. It's a obe time agreement so that we later just need to say "Uthero is now Governor" and this automatically means he will be the non-hereditary ruler of an area with underlings called [Something] and that he is equal in social rank to, say, Hermetia, but below, say, the Sealord. Don't like the non-hereditary part? "Make Uthero Archon". Done.

And the thing is, I gladly did all the work for that so that these narratively important choices can be made easily and unambiguously, with the Office of Handwavium taking care of the rest. But, you know, can't say someone is a count.
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I've never gotten objections like this. I generally assume that nobody is actually speaking English, and what we are getting is always a translation. So I interpret this kind of thing as a translation of a word that indicates a title roughly equivalent to a count, like how we translate some ancient Chinese titles as Count or Marquis.
 
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