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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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[X] spiritualathiest

Paxter should be embarrassed, he is the host and she has acted terribly.

No to Discord, also no to 1v1 debates for the reasons already mentioned.
 
Hmm to be honest this entire time she has pissed me off so much that all my thoughts say to do is "Shadow of the Doom". It is quite astonishing that three characters in a row have managed to cause this kind of reaction from me. In fact I will fucking say it. I would rather deal with Aedon and Syrax then her ever again.
 
Uhm... people... do we need to shit on the table before we leave and prove the harebrained shit she tried to smear us with as truth?
 
Azel said:
Uhm... people... do we need to shit on the table before we leave and prove the harebrained shit she tried to smear us with as truth?
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I am not saying that we have to go with the above vote, but I am saying that she has proven she cannot engage in open discourse with us in good faith--this is basically confirmed via authorial fiat--which was a bad idea in hindsight, I almost regret bitching about recent update earlier because of it.

Talking to Paxter instead is a good idea.
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
Hmm to be honest this entire time she has pissed me off so much that all my thoughts say to do is "Shadow of the Doom". It is quite astonishing that three characters in a row have managed to cause this kind of reaction from me. In fact I will fucking say it. I would rather deal with Aedon and Syrax then her ever again.
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Holy crap, that's a low bar. o_O
Azel said:
Uhm... people... do we need to shit on the table before we leave and prove the harebrained shit she tried to smear us with as truth?
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Yeah. While satisfying to a certain degree, the second proposal doesn't do a lot to achieve our main objectives. I want to leave when the Reachmen fully know that they've been played, and not before.
 
To clarify, I think we should make it clear that as of now Viserys regards her completely beneath notice, like a gnat snapping at an eagle, or a dim-witted child sticking its head in a dragon's mouth.
 
Azel said:
Uhm... people... do we need to shit on the table before we leave and prove the harebrained shit she tried to smear us with as truth?
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Goldfish said:
@spiritualatheist We don't need to resort to threats of violence here. We can be the bigger Dragon and shit all over her verbally.
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Thing is, I have no confidence at this point that the Redwynes won't just buy however she spins it after we leave. She has been utterly egregiously arguing in bad faith, and they are just eating this up. Moreover, I see this entire exercise as pretty pointless--we aren't going to give them anything at all at this point.

I am open to being more conciliatory, but reminding everyone present of our relative positions is something I really want to see.
 
spiritualatheist said:
Thing is, I have no confidence at this point that the Redwynes won't just buy however she spins it after we leave. She has been utterly egregiously arguing in bad faith, and they are just eating this up. Moreover, I see this entire exercise as pretty pointless--we aren't going to give them anything at all at this point.

I am open to being more conciliatory, but reminding everyone present of our relative positions is something I really want to see.
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I completely understand your point and it is kinda annoying how she uses the damsel card to gather NPC support, but I feel we don't really have to remind them of our position. I mean they know they're not getting the crown, and once we just turn them down (since I don't see them fulfilling our price for said crown) and just leave with the crown they're not going to be able to do anything. The fact that they had to try and convince us to give them the crown, rather than try to either fight or argue that we don't have the right to keep the crown from them, implies they acknowledge our superiority, if albeit grudgingly.
 
I think the reason she beat us despite the piss poor arguments is the dice result. Kind of like those times when you get burned and after the whole thing is done five minutes later you get the perfect reply but the opportunity is lost.
 
Dracikral said:
I completely understand your point and it is kinda annoying how she uses the damsel card to gather NPC support, but I feel we don't really have to remind them of our position. I mean they know they're not getting the crown, and once we just turn them down (since I don't see them fulfilling our price for said crown) and just leave with the crown they're not going to be able to do anything. The fact that they had to try and convince us to give them the crown, rather than try to either fight or argue that we don't have the right to keep the crown from them, implies they acknowledge our superiority, if albeit grudgingly.
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The thing is, she hasn't, not really. If she did, shewould be asking permission of us and making us offers, rather that showing off to her own side.

This is the bit I have a problem with, by the way:
Azel said:
-[X] If she comes again with her 'threat of force' spiel: "You were offered parley not once, not twice, but trice and even then, I could only force you to this table. Do you truly think me daft enough to believe that you would not have attacked other ships who would have contested your attempts at salvaging this ship? No matter how deftly you dressed them up as requests, you have demanded time and time again what you could not claim by might alone. Let us 'negotiate' one last time then. What is it that you want in return for troubling my subjects no longer and letting them carry out their task to claim this crown in my name?"
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This particular phrasing gives her too much power. It puts us in the position of supplicant, of asking her what price she will accept for something that is going to happen anyway. If this was something like "make me an offer for the crown and I might consider entertaining it" then I would be much happier with the vote.
 
ryuan said:
I think the reason she beat us despite the piss poor arguments is the dice result. Kind of like those times when you get burned and after the whole thing is done five minutes later you get the perfect reply but the opportunity is lost.
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As I have said before, the issue isn't that we are losing, its that that loss isn't manifesting in the narrative. If we lose a social roll off, We should be genuinely out-argued, rather than a bunch of idiots just accepting whatever bs our opponent spews.
 
spiritualatheist said:
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This particular phrasing gives her too much power. It puts us in the position of supplicant, of asking her what price she will accept for something that is going to happen anyway. If this was something like "make me an offer for the crown and I might consider entertaining it" then I would be much happier with the vote.
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Ok yeah I see how that's a problem now. Hrmm at this point it's honestly better to just ignore her as @Crake stated. Discourse with Lord Paxter will probably be much easier along with growing the seeds of doubt in the fey he should have after our discussion with the lady.
 
spiritualatheist said:
This particular phrasing gives her too much power. It puts us in the position of supplicant, of asking her what price she will accept for something that is going to happen anyway. If this was something like "make me an offer for the crown and I might consider entertaining it" then I would be much happier with the vote.
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If I'm understanding correctly, that's not a genuine offer. That's us going, "You had your chance. Why the Hell should I listen to you?"

That's why 'negotiate' is in apostrophes. This isn't an actual negotiation.

@Azel, am I understanding that correctly or did I wildly misinterpret that part?
 
Duesal said:
If I'm understanding correctly, that's not a genuine offer. That's us going, "You had your chance. Why the Hell should I listen to you?"

That's why 'negotiate' is in apostrophes. This isn't an actual negotiation.

@Azel, am I understanding that correctly or did I wildly misinterpret that part?
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I get that that is the intention, I just don't like how it is phrased at all.

Would this be an acceptable compromise, @Azel?

[] Plan Measuring The Rope v2
-[] Look directly at Paxter and for a moment. "It is a dreadful day for a father to outlive his son. A pain that I had not to endure and hopefully never will, yet I know all too many who had to bury their kin. What they would give to turn back such a dreadful turn of fate... More then once I saw such grief exploited by those who care little for the fate of men. One has to hope that the lord of the Fey would take umbrage at such sinister dealings." // Shot in the dark. It seems exceedingly likely that Paxter is here as the result of honoring a bargain that he struck for the life of his son. This should either get a telling reaction from Paxter or a nice rise out of our Fey problem.
-[] Back to the Fey: "It seems we are at an impasse then. We speak a lot about bargains, yet no matter how often I ask you for an offer, you made none. Even worse, you imply that I would break such a deal. Considering how my subjects were treated by you and that you threw a spell at me while I asked for parley..." Shake your head her for emphasis, as if scolding a child. "I have offered plenty of trust and goodwill and in return I got rudeness and slander. Mayhaps Mace Tyrell will be more amenable to a fair deal, should I approach him with the crown in hand. Or some other member of you court might be inclined to speak to me about it. I'm sure there are those more well versed in negotiation who would be willing to try." // Either we are suggesting something she desperately does not want, like dealing with Mace directly or asking others of her court about this, or we piss her off something fierce. Win-Win.
-[] Back to Paxter: "Lord Redwyne, I would ask you to move your ships away from these waters while I will retrieve the crown." // Playtime is over.
-[] If she comes again with her 'threat of force' spiel: "You were offered parley not once, not twice, but trice and even then, I could only force you to this table. Do you truly think me daft enough to believe that you would not have attacked other ships who would have contested your attempts at salvaging this ship? No matter how deftly you dressed them up as requests, you have demanded time and time again what you could not claim by might alone. Let us 'negotiate' one last time then. What do you offer me, that I should forgive your rudeness and grant you the crown?"

Edit: my changes are the bolded bit at the end.
 
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spiritualatheist said:
As I have said before, the issue isn't that we are losing, its that that loss isn't manifesting in the narrative. If we lose a social roll off, We should be genuinely out-argued, rather than a bunch of idiots just accepting whatever bs our opponent spews.
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But that's limited to both @DragonParadox own ability to make arguments and the weight/validity/truth/delivery of the arguments itself. If her position is genuinely precarious, but she manages to roll incredibly well anyway then the DM have a problem on his hands.

He either manages to find a good way to turn around the tables, or he just tell the players that she somehow managed to do it thanks to the dice roll. For the sake of making things easier on him we can take the hit this time.

If we're really dissastisfied by how she beat us with dumb ass arguments, then maybe we can help the DM to craft better arguments for her in order for the loss to sound less embarrassing?
 
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