A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
tarrangar
Fat arctic chicken
Yss is a god of death, which mean he's an Aspect of the many faced god, considering how much he likes us, such problems can probably be solved, by him telling the Faceless men that it's cool, and I don't think Yss has any objection to people living unnaturally long.
Not sub-human so much as the morality they are made with start false, just like a young AI's mind right after creation, is whatever it's creator want it to be, only with time to learn do it's mind truly become it's own, in that same vein an Outsider start out being just an automaton, and you can only judge it on it's acts, after it has gotten the opportunity to be something different.
It's only once they get to truly interact with people of all kinds of morals, that they begin to be able to be judged for their acts, because it's only at that point that their morality is truly their own, and not just an extension of their home plane.
For all Outsiders are created fully grown and with a full mind, morally they are still children, just parroting the morals of their parents, it's only when they have been exposed to other morals and the reasons behind them, that their moral stance can be said to be their own.
As I said it's like with AI's, they are created with a lot of knowledge and rules, yet it's only once they get the opportunity to make their own observations, that their choices begin to become their own.
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- Location
- Germany
I would be more interested in their policy on non-undead death-avoidance.
- Location
- florida
Hopefully. Think he'd pay well for the lich? He's probably great at messing with souls.
"I'm planning on becoming immortal. Will that be a problem sir?"
- Location
- florida
That's a very human metric to judge them by.
dpara
slightly confused ascendant
..mmh. Though it might actually be a sensible, nobody is as fanatic as a <=10 year old before christmas, lot's of untapped belief to farm there.
We'd need a lot more Erinyes for the distribution network though.
I also find interpreting them as manifestations of an moral system pretty problematic, but they are all extremely mentally resistant and seemingly immune to getting bored of their shtick. *shrug
Maybe they are working on "mortals are to outsiders what chickens are to us*" and just comprehend reality on a higher level or something.
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tarrangar
Fat arctic chicken
I'm human I don't have any other metric to judge them by.
- Location
- Germany
The question is explicitly about "the undying" in general. I don't want to tip our hand right now by a too specific question.
This line of questioning is touching on a very, very delicate matter, so it might still come to a nice bout of murdering each other.
- Location
- United States
Is he really?
Just because they claim that the Many-Faced God represents all death gods doesn't mean it's true. There is nothing to go off of other than their word on the matter. It reeks of R'hllor claiming that he is the one true god, and that all that is good springs from him and all that is evil is from the Great Other.
Just because a god (much less their servants) says something does not make it fact.
tarrangar
Fat arctic chicken
I meant more that they will believe he's an aspect of their god, which should mean if his Avatar say it's okay, unless another death god descend to say it's not, then that's it, they acknowledge it's okay.
- Location
- Germany
This line of reasoning is extremely flawed, as you are assuming that each human reaches a stage where they can make a informed decision about their personal morals. As it happens though, most people never reach this stage, in part because it is considered an unacceptable topic to talk about faith, morality and politics in most settings. The other issue is the good old nature vs. nuture debate and modern science has found strong evidence that the tendency of a persons morals is very much dictated by nature.
Furthermore, as you keep bringing up hypothetically sapient AIs, in my professional experience, any kind of thinking apparatus is very much constrained by it's underlying infrastructure, but a human-like intelligence would automatically imply the ability to reason and make judgments autonomously. Without this ability, you have no true sapience, just a clever Construct that is bound solely by it's premade, mental structure.
Therefore, you either assume that Outsiders start as sub-sapient, or they start on the same level as a human. The existence or lack of prior experience certainly has an impact on the complexity and nature of a beings thoughts, but the fundamental part is if it is capable of having them in the first place.
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- Location
- United States
I'm pretty sure the Faceless Men will be taking their cues from the Many-Faced God rather than Yss.
I am more interested in the Many-Faced God's attitude to ressurrection and reincarnation than general "undying". Draconic lifespans and spell of youth might increase longevity but they hardly break death, they're just really good heathcare. Even if he disagrees it isn't going to come up for decades. OTOH returning the dead to life is something he must have an opinion on and we've done that a lot over the last year or two and plan to continue.
- Location
- ?????????
[X] Azel
- Location
- Germany
TL;DR
The default Outsider is no more or less capable of being held accountable for his choices then a random Planetosi peasant.
Vote Closed.
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- Location
- Chicago
[X] Azel
tarrangar
Fat arctic chicken
They start like humans, which mean they start on the child level morally, sure they are exponentially more clever and knowledgeable children, but that's still what they are children, they start out parrotting their parents, it takes time and challenges for them to grow up.
My argument is that for all Outsiders spring fully formed with a mind, a new young Outsider is still a child at heart, for all that they are much more adultlike than human children.
Sure if the Many-Faced God cares to personally weight in on the matter, but Yss word as an aspect of the Many-Faced God, supercedes anything short of the Many-Faced God personally letting their judgment be known.
Meaning if the Many-Faced God don't care one way or the other, then Yss word will supercede the Faceless mens judgment, it wont supercede the Many-Faced Gods judgment, but if he don't weight in on it, then Yss words will be final.
Sure they can be held accountable just as much, but there's less point in hating them than there's in hating mortals, at least in my opinion.
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Update in beta.
This argument is pointless, because the outsiders who get to go on the missions to the prime material plane (the ones we meet) are all likely to be several thousand years old.
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Part MMCDXCVII: Of the Last Gift
Of the Last Gift
Eleventh Day of the Seventh Month 293 AC
"Interesting," you half whisper, for truly it is. You have been given a rare chance by circumstance to learn more of the Faceless Men, and you have no intention of squandering it. "Your order is not known for how talkative its members are, so I will consider this high flattery of my person. One question above all others I would like to know the answer to, both for what I heard about the servants of the Many-Faced God and for the circumstances of our meeting."
The assassin nods, having obviously expected questions following his revelation. It would be too much to say he is at ease, but something of the coiled wariness flows smoothly from his posture. "Ask and I shall give you what answers I can. It is no small deed you managed this day, maegi."
"'Valar morghulis' they say, yet there are those who seek and sometimes succeed in escaping these words. I have heard that your order hunts such sorcerers, not for the sake of clients, but in the name of your god."
"All our deeds are dedicated to Him of Many Faces, for we are as fingers upon his hand," he interrupts "To those who had chosen to torment themselves by casting away the great gift we come unbidden by aught save their own madness. So too do the priests offer a sip from the pool to those who manage to crawl to the edge but by reason of their ailments cannot drink themselves."
"So then you count it kindness?" It has the virtue of consistency if nothing else you must admit. "Why were you sent now, when the creature that you wanted to slay was haunting this house for generations? By what measure does your god or order decree that one undying is left to his own device, but another slain by your hand?"
"I fear my first answer will be most disappointing in its simplicity." There is something that might be amusement in the soft unnaturally steady voice. "I was sent here now for only now was the truth of this place unveiled to my order. With the rising tides of magic acts that would have seemed like a candle in the night before now flare like bonfires. As to your second question we weigh the breadth and depth of corruption that is and that which may yet be from any single tainted being. I cannot give you precise measures as one may weigh a sack of grain to market in part because the paths to such a wretched existence are many and the abominations they breed just as varied..."
"And partly because that is not the sort of thing one shares with outsiders," you guess. "If I may speculate further..." One elegantly hand waves you on and so you continue: "A mage who merely raises a single corpse to prove he can and then moves on to other things is beneath notice, one who prologues his life but spends all of it locked in his studies not caring for the world is worth barely more, but a plague of unlife you are honor-bound to end... which carries some rather unpleasant implications for the plans of this estate's erstwhile lord. Perhaps his workings threatened to stain the world in some indelible manner. Perhaps he was on the path to worldly power that would see his servants grow too numerous and too mighty."
"You are truly worthy of the courtesy given to you in the tongue of Valyria." The masked man hesitates a moment then adds, "If it became known precisely where the line is then far too many would crowd against it."
"Yet you do not object to me learning as much as I have of your order," you say, the words not quite a question.
"It seems a worthy exchange from all I have seen of your deeds," he replies. "Some say experience is the whetstone of the spirit, but I have found that knowledge can serve just as well and often less painfully."
You hear the words spoken and those yet unspoken also. The assassin wishes to cultivate you, or rather Master Lieu, as a resource for his order.
What do you reply?
[] Agree that such a connection would be useful to you also
[] Refuse the unspoken offer
[] Write in
OOC: Some very solid social combat this update.
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- Location
- Argentina
*Keikaku doori intensifies*
[X] Agree that such a connection would be useful to you also
He has no idea what he is dealing with here. So long as we can keep it that way, having an in with them is useful for keeping tabs on them, learning about things we would find concerning, and being able to arrange deniable action against some types of enemies, potentially without risking any of our assets whatsoever.
He has no idea what he is dealing with here. So long as we can keep it that way, having an in with them is useful for keeping tabs on them, learning about things we would find concerning, and being able to arrange deniable action against some types of enemies, potentially without risking any of our assets whatsoever.