Paradosi
Myrddin
- Location
- VV Cephei
Since when do we care about the Iron Throne though? We're not planning to follow in Aegon's footsteps, are we? We're doing our own thang.
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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Since when do we care about the Iron Throne though? We're not planning to follow in Aegon's footsteps, are we? We're doing our own thang.
- Location
- United States
That doesn't change the fact that tolerating crowns outside our control is a bad idea. You don't leave potential symbols of rebellion alone.
- Location
- ?????????
We are but a lot of the basis of our rule does come from Aegon's actions. Also crowns for people who aren't kings generally aren't a good idea. Like even the heir apparent of the British crown in our world wears a coronet and not an actual crown. So it is a bad idea.
- Location
- France
Oh yes!!!
Paradosi
Myrddin
- Location
- VV Cephei
There's been plenty of historical emperors who had kings as their vassals. I mean, that's why emperors are a grade above king and why empires are a grade above kingdoms.
Heck, what happens when we take over Yi Ti? What's above an emperor?
Does it? We plan to conquer the Prime Material. The Seven Kingdoms are kind of a backwater in that regard, truth be told.
Honestly, the significance of a crown is irrelevant when compared to the significance of magic. Viserys' legitimacy stems from sheer magical power/ability, not a hunk of metal.
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Sure, but this is one of those 'people are dumb and do not understand tremendous cosmic power' things, like Dragons. The hunk of metal is mostly important because people think it's important.
Of course, this particular hunk of metal is probably also a powerful artifact, so there's that.
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Paradosi
Myrddin
- Location
- VV Cephei
Unless we plan to keep the populace perpetually ignorant, I don't think that'll be much of a problem for long.
- Location
- ?????????
If you are referring to the holy Roman Empire that is not remotely true. At best they were given titles of Arch-duke. As for China well regional lords but kings. The Mongol Empire is a shit example because they collapsed rather quickly and they did have kings. The Persian empire had kings but this was so far before Feudal era politics that frankly it didn't matter. Kings are a danger to centralizing power and crowns are symbols especially crowns that were worn by the last true king of the Reach. It is a bad idea to let them keep it
- Location
- Brazil
I love the little recaps I'm getting from you commenting on stuff.
Keep going.
Also, the Good Shit is just barely begun
We've had this discussion a while ago while trying to settle titles, and King is no bueno. There are all sorts of connotations with King, that aren't there for Prince.
- Location
- United States
Sure, and we don't have to follow their example. There won't even be kings and queens after we're done, at most there'll be governors.
At the end of the day crowns will always be a powerful symbol, and letting other people have them is stupid. Why on earth would we allow symbols that could be powerful agents of legitimacy for rebellions go unchecked?
Paradosi
Myrddin
- Location
- VV Cephei
I'm more referring to the fact that any threat to Viserys will be based on magic(as in who can match him), not crowns. There is no IRL equivalent in that regard, given that we do not possess magic(as far as I know, that is).
Also, I'm not saying we just hand it over to the Tyrells. Heck, half the Reach probably has a claim on it. Have we even decided who we'll want in charge of the Reach?
That said, I don't think the Tyrells are quite as bad as people are making them out to be. Willas and Garlan Tyrell aren't unintelligent or fools. On the contrary, really.
- Location
- United States
Just because we're powerful magically is no reason to start making dumb political moves. We are powerful, not invincible, and we can still fuck ourselves over.
Paradosi
Myrddin
- Location
- VV Cephei
Who is going to rebel against an undying sorcerer with phenomenal cosmic power just cause they've got a crown? Are we planning on having any vassals that criminally stupid?
Seriously, we're looking at the realm we're trying to build like Viserys is going to be just another king or emperor or whatever.
Whatever threat to Viserys will be magical, not political. Our flavor of D&D isn't suited to political threats, not unless you conspire against yourself.
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- Location
- ?????????
Magic means jack shit compared to the power of symbols. It is a symbol of a time where the Reach was free. Sure we can flyby and end an insurrection anytime. But that is time wasted. It would frankly be easier to take the damm crown and lock it away in the deepest vault than to deal with the symbol then to come back and deal with any insurrection. Because all it will take is some desperate lord losing power, because our institutions are making it so, to take up the crown and rebel.
Paradosi
Myrddin
- Location
- VV Cephei
Eh?
Magic is a symbol, and more.
Seriously, are we not planning to educate the masses(and propagandize it so rebellion isn't even something to think about)? Are we not planning to shape a realm that stretches across the Prime Material?
- Location
- United States
Your argument amounts to "we'll be so powerful that we don't have to worry about this."
That is not a good reason to start making dumb political decisions.
Not to mention that we're not the only PCs in the world, our gods aren't the only gods in the world, etc. Not every potential rebellion is doomed to failure, and even if we might not be personally threatened we could still suffer quite a bit of loss in citizens and infrastructure.
- Location
- France
D&D absolutely is suited to political threats. I don't understand the "political vs magical" split you have going on. Political groups will gather power (notably magical power) to themselves. It's so easy that even the fucking Tyroshi managed to get high-CR monsters!
And this is a symbol that will help a rebellion to gather allies. It's a problem.
It's also another shiny for the hoard. Those are always good.
And this is a symbol that will help a rebellion to gather allies. It's a problem.
It's also another shiny for the hoard. Those are always good.
- Location
- United States
Not to mention you're all assuming the Flower Crown isn't magical. Seeing as it's a relic of the pre-Seven Gardners, I'm inclined to believe it has very real power besides as a major symbol.
- Location
- United States
Also this. Just look at the latest run of intrigue we've been doing. Who was behind it all? Demons commanded by a lich. The heavy hitters are definitely going to get involved where they can.
- Location
- ?????????
All that means jack shit if there isn't an institution that people can put their faith in. Yes we are educating them but we cannot force people to learn without convincing them of the benefits. We cannot go to every house and cast grow plants to show that this spell is good for plant growth. But an institution is different. People can put their faith in them. Magic is a tool with powerful political effects but it is not a symbol. If the Imperium says that educating children is a good idea, then people will listen. But if it is just magic superstition will reign.
Update in beta.
Paradosi
Myrddin
- Location
- VV Cephei
That's only part of my argument. The other part is we're unlikely to make a habit of having vassals that are that dumb, else we've already failed.
I'm not arguing against that? I'm talking about what we're striving for, not the present reality.
I kind of feel like people aren't getting my point here. My point is that we're looking at our goals like they're nothing out of the ordinary. They are. You don't make a vassal out of the whole of the Prime Material and pretend it's like nothing's changed and whatever politics don't change one bit. You'd have an easier time of finding things that'll stay the same.
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- Location
- ?????????
And we are telling you that even when the politics remain the same. Handing over symbols from a time before House Targaryen ruled gives any would-be rebel or desperate man another tool upon which he can gather those who are unsatisfied to fight alongside them. Yes the politics will remain much the same but lets not throw around symbols of power older than our Imperium and our house.
Paradosi
Myrddin
- Location
- VV Cephei
My whole point is that the politics won't remain the same, so I'm kinda confused here?
I don't think we should look at it like Viserys is just another king or emperor or whatever, as I'd just said and quoted.
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