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A Song Of Peace: Imperial Regent Quest [40k]

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Sightsear said:
Alright, so Cain is almost definitely up and kicking SOMEWHERE in the galaxy (probably treated as a Commisar Lord, whether he is one or not), buuuut, what about Jurgen?

I don't know about you guys, but it always felt like Jurgen was written about past-tense, with fond reminiscing about him. Or, to be more frank, it seemed as if Jurgen was dead by the time Cain started writing his memoirs.

...Actually, that's another thing! Pandora could get a hold of Cain's uncensored autobiography! In theory, anyway, she has more then enough clearance to stroll through that juicy piece of gossip-fodder.

3265 In practice though, who would slip it to her?
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Jurgen supposedly died at the tail end of Cain's life shoving a vortex gernade into a chaos space marines IIRC.

honestly he probably should still be alive as round about this time he was around to help cain deal with that Super mind control Psyker that attacked Perlia.

as for that Amberly. She gives the Cain archive (gathered when Caiaphas was assumed dead for the fitysixth time) to her as a We're not all horrible thing.

or maybe she was considering abolishing the Commissary and Amberly gives her the Cain archive to show that she probably shouldn't. And that it should be reformed rather then destroyed
 
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Ciaphaps Cain
Hero of the Imperium
Class: Saber

Parameters
Strength: CAgility: B
Endurance: BMana: C
Luck: EXNoble Phantasm:B


Class Skills
Riding: C
Most vehicles can be handled with above average skill, even vehicles that did not exist in the time period one was alive in, for they are no exception. No story has depicted Cain on a living mount as such his only skill is operating mechanical steeds

Magic Resistance: B
Cancel spells with a chant below three verses. Even if targeted by High-Thaumaturgy and Greater Rituals, it is difficult for them to be affected. The legends around Cain often depict him as resistant to the touch of magic and even in truth his will to resist such powers was formidable.

Personal Skills

Pioneer of the Stars:EX
The stories around the Hero of the Imperium triumphing against impossible odds are many indeed and in such victory he shares them with those he fights beside and leads. Even the impossible is made possible by luck, skill and hidden courage.

Innocent Monster: D
Ciaphas Cain is shaped by his heroic reputation and the views of the masses to be more in line with his reputation overriding his own self doubts and self loathing to an extent. Much of his personality is still saved due to his true story being preserved by the Cain archive and the wide distribution of it among secret circles.

Minds eye (True): EX
by virtue of vast experience and constant danger from unexpected avenues and a great deal of luck Cain has honed his ability to read his foes and battle conditions to a mythical level and has improved to such that it rivals clairvoyance

Saint : E

Cain is acknowledged as a holy saint by some sections of the imperial faith. This ability is sealed and reduced by Cain's own feelings on the matter and lack of personal faith or " Emperor bothering" as he puts it.

Charisma: A

almost all whom have met the Hero of the Imperium are touched by his charisma moving crowds and regiments with a few words and inspiring entire planets with merely his presence. Driving foes to desperation just from the knowledge he is there and potentially looking for them. It is his most powerful tool and his curse for it is what draws him into his many adventures.

Noble Phantasm
Jurgan: My aid, my friend , my right hand
Type: Anti-Unit
Rank: B

Activated when summoned into the world. Jurgan is created alongside Cain to serve as his aid and companion. Not a true heroic spirit due to the fact that most stories gloss over him. Neither the less his fateful aid is always by his side. He also possess the blank abilities he had in life rendering him an absolute nightmare for those whom would use mage craft regardless of power and can with time even dissolve the magic that animates enemy servants. Cain himself is immune to this effect as is his master




Eh why not I had time and Cain is my favorite 40k character.
 
Wouldn't most of the novels still work if the Commissar was a staff officer under the regimental command?
 
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Swordomatic said:
All your life, you never wanted

Alright, gimmie one reason why a political officer role should stick around when it is actively proven to be detrimental.
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*Looks at Cain, Gaunt, Yarrick and other notable examples*

just like IG commanders and goveners there's a range. The "shoot people for not saluting correctly" group is a thing yeah but those tend to suffer from being a friendly fire statistic.

they have a role in enforcing discipline which is a very important thing considering the shit they're fighting.

it should be reformed to resemble more of Cain's style of command but it is needed.

I want to stress that the shoot people for the slightest infraction is not how they should be .
 
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Artemis1992 said:
Wouldn't most of the novels still work if the Commissar was a staff officer under the regimental command?
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Not really he needs to be somewhat separate from the chain of command to properly enforce discipline regardless of rank and move more freely then a command officer can. You can't have the person in charge of organizing a regiment runoff and deal with a potentially very dangerous situation even if that situation needs someone extremely competent with a great deal of authority to go on it.

further the position of Comassiar transcends the typical divides of the imperial guard. And they can typically bully those outside of their regiment into compliance without getting their regiment intotrouble as they represent the comasaiate.

for their they kind of act like almost diplomats between very different regiments. you put a Chem dogs regiment near a first born regiment and the only people able to communicate without trying to kill each other would be the Comassars
 
Staff Notice: Rule 3: Be Civil: That last sentence is a tad too aggressive.
Cjdavis103 said:
*Looks at Cain, Gaunt, Yarrick and other notable examples*

just like IG commanders and goveners there's a range. The "shoot people for not saluting correctly" group is a thing yeah but those tend to suffer from being a friendly fire statistic.

they have a role in enforcing discipline which is a very important thing considering the shit they're fighting.

it should be reformed to resemble more of Cain's style of command but it is needed.

I want to stress that the shoot people for the slightest infraction is not how they should be .
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As an NCO, whose job scope is about enforcing discipline, that's bullshit. You do not need to grant a separate political officer cadre the authority of unrestricted execution in order to inspire anybody.

And when your best argument for keeping a political officer cadre is three commissars who are explicitly exceptional for not executing anyone, and when the actual utility of the officer cadre is not in fact doing the thing they were trained to do, you're full of shit.

You don't need a separate officer cadre to have Cain-like figures. You have an existing officer cadre for that, whose job is to actually fucking lead. Commissars IRL have literally never gone well and every single time they've had any actual authority - which mind you is still less than what imperial Commissars have - the effectiveness of their units actively plummets through the crust and into hell.

So in summation, Commissars are full of shit, you're full of shit, get the fuck out of my thread.
 
Swordomatic said:
As an NCO, whose job scope is about enforcing discipline, that's bullshit. You do not need to grant a separate political officer cadre the authority of unrestricted execution in order to inspire anybody.

And when your best argument for keeping a political officer cadre is three commissars who are explicitly exceptional for not executing anyone, and when the actual utility of the officer cadre is not in fact doing the thing they were trained to do, you're full of shit.

You don't need a separate officer cadre to have Cain-like figures. You have an existing officer cadre for that, whose job is to actually fucking lead. Commissars IRL have literally never gone well and every single time they've had any actual authority - which mind you is still less than what imperial Commissars have - the effectiveness of their units actively plummets through the crust and into hell.

So in summation, Commissars are full of shit, you're full of shit, get the fuck out of my thread.
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woah okay sure just make them inter regimental diplomacy people then.

jesus dude I'm not condoning the execute everyone versions. Explicitly it's in need of reform and bring remade to do their jobs without killing people unessarly .
 
Swordomatic said:
Okay, maybe I wasn't clear the first time around. Lemme try again:

Get the fuck out of my thread.
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Okay sure was trying to discuss this politely and calmly with a story writer that I'd like but clearly you interpret me trying to be polite and discussing some thing as being a horrible person .

I would recommend that you take a look at your own thing at the bottom of your thread because being in tolerant of people is clearly what you are being right now.

Be better swordo
 
Cjdavis103 said:
for their they kind of act like almost diplomats between very different regiments. you put a Chem dogs regiment near a first born regiment and the only people able to communicate without trying to kill each other would be the Comassars
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I'd have to agree with like only this point. If the Commissars had to stick around this is the best possible thing for them to do. It's probably been mentioned before, but one of the biggest downsides of the Guard is how diverse they are and how difficult that makes organizing Regiments not based off the same planet (Cadia, Krieg, Catachan). An officer esc corps who's sole purpose is to try and navigate inter Regimental politics would be very much so useful.

Besides that most of a Commissar duties that are actually necessary, like actual disciplinary duties (not the murder a company for not having their shoes shined discipline) should just be taken up by actual Regiment officers and in case of higher ranking incompetence, Field Marshalls or Generals.

TL;DR Imperium need competent officers.
 
*sigh*

You know you would think having an institution explicitly modeled after the worst impulses of a totalitarian regime as applied to the military would be seen as bad. Yes you could have a position named 'commissar' whose job it is to give out hugs and kisses to depressed soldiers or something, but then it is kind of pointless to name it commissar, same for any other part of the job that is not threatening or enacting violence on your own troops on political grounds. That is where the political in political officer comes from.
 
Cjdavis103 said:
Okay sure was trying to discuss this politely and calmly with a story writer that I'd like but clearly you interpret me trying to be polite and discussing some thing as being a horrible person .

I would recommend that you take a look at your own thing at the bottom of your thread because being in tolerant of people is clearly what you are being right now.

Be better swordo
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I do not personally believe that glorifying the unilateral ability to take life as if it were two dollars off the parking lot floor should be in any way tolerated. You are explicitly glorifying the worst aspects of an inhuman regime that treated human life like so much toilet paper because it was 'necessary' during the Great Patriotic War, while completely neglecting that had Stalin not been a paranoid piece of shit he wouldn't NEED political officers!

I refuse to tolerate such intolerance in my thread, and I think it's high time you analysed why you like Commissars and whether they are at all a moral institution.

Go be better somewhere else. I'm done dealing with you.
 
Commissars as they are are dumb, and anything they do that has actual purpose could be done by normal officers (for an obvious example, see colonel-commissar Gaunt). You could argue that having a second set of people to watch out for Chaos cult stuff could be useful, but just getting regimental officers proper training for that would solve that issue. The only useful thing is that with how diverse imperial guard regiments are, having a set of people from the outside to mediate between them might be useful, but that alone isn't enough to make an extra officer type for and any existing trigger-happy commissars wouldn't be suited anyway. Tldr: commissars are dumb.
 
Swordomatic said:
I do not personally believe that glorifying the unilateral ability to take life as if it were two dollars off the parking lot floor should be in any way tolerated. You are explicitly glorifying the worst aspects of an inhuman regime that treated human life like so much toilet paper because it was 'necessary' during the Great Patriotic War, while completely neglecting that had Stalin not been a paranoid piece of shit he wouldn't NEED political officers!

I refuse to tolerate such intolerance in my thread, and I think it's high time you analysed why you like Commissars and whether they are at all a moral institution.

Go be better somewhere else. I'm done dealing with you.
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Says the person with a quest that for the longest time has a protagonist that was a child soldier trained from the age of 10.

should we get rid of space Marines as well?
 
Cjdavis103 said:
Says the person with a quest that for the longest time has a protagonist that was a child soldier trained from the age of 10.

should we get rid of space Marines as well?
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In an an ideal world yes, unfortunately the fucking warp magic (technical term) can only be applied starting at a young age. There is an external reason that has to do with the metaphysics of the setting that justifies Space Marines. There is none for commissars, they exist as a pure instrument of terror. Yes is is possible for individuals to choose to use that power differently, but that is not what it is for
 
Cjdavis103 said:
Says the person with a quest that for the longest time has a protagonist that was a child soldier trained from the age of 10.

should we get rid of space Marines as well?
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Having a protagonist who is a child soldier is absolutely not a endorsement for child soldiers? Like, that's nonsense. Do you think that having traumatized characters in stories is taking a moral stance in favor of inflicting trauma??

Edit: also space marine bad
 
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It's like the Spartans from Halo, were they ultimately necessary for humanities survival, yes. Was their creation a morally or legally right, not slightly. Dr. Halsey was still arrested for her work in creating the Spartan 2's because it was the wrong thing to do.

If possible, I'd imagine that we'd not use Astartes and the people who made them would be held accountable. Unfortunately, they are currently preventing humanity from killing itself under it's own stupidity and the obvious death via aliens and FTL monsters.

Also unfortunately, the only person still alive?Who played a part in the Astartes creation is the Emperor who is the only thing allowing humanity to FTL travel without getting soul raped by Daemons. (And even then it doesn't work 100% of the time)
 
Cjdavis103 said:
Says the person with a quest that for the longest time has a protagonist that was a child soldier trained from the age of 10.

should we get rid of space Marines as well?
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I mean, ideally, fuck yeah. They're pretty horrific by our moral standards - Astartes are a bunch of often traumatized children inducted through brutal, frequently deadly trials, that are then brainwashed and irreversibly turned into inhuman weapons of war, nearly unable to comprehend the idea of not fighting, and so mentally and genetically twisted that basic human qualities such as love and fear are beyond them. And that's not even getting into their actions and inactions.

Ideally, I'd abolish them entirely. I doubt that's even slightly feasible in the foreseeable future (and we can foresee a lot), though. The best we can get, probably, is yelling at the chapters to treat normal humans better and to stop leaving their recruiting planets as hellholes because they think it "builds character" (despite Ultramar showing it really isn't necessary).
 
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Pale King said:
It's like the Spartans from Halo, were they ultimately necessary for humanities survival, yes. Was their creation a morally or legally right, not slightly. Dr. Halsey was still arrested for her work in creating the Spartan 2's because it was the wrong thing to do.

If possible, I'd imagine that we'd not use Astartes and the people who made them would be held accountable. Unfortunately, they are currently preventing humanity from killing itself under it's own stupidity and the obvious death via aliens and FTL monsters.

Also unfortunately, the only person still alive?Who played a part in the Astartes creation is the Emperor who is the only thing allowing humanity to FTL travel without getting soul raped by Daemons. (And even then it doesn't work 100% of the time)
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The last part is not technically true. Most of the Dark Imperium cannot see the light of the Astronomicon but they can still function in terms of FTL. Not that this obviates the other issues in calling the emperor to some kind of reckoning for his crimes.

Edit: Just noticed the post above, stopping the thread of conversation.
 
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