Trying to get the stuff we actually want through the straightforward exercise of Imperium stuff gets us this:

So you are just taking her word for it because....?

No seriously we know this is not the case because hen the Imperium built hives in the Crusade era they were not this shit, they were not even close to this shit. Hell there are not shit hives in the Imperium presently, they are all in Ultramar. That is not a bastion of democracy and free will, they are just less terrible at organization

The argument you are making is Lucan without the final step of wanting to burn it all down, even though if you are right and it takes deep systemic reform up to and eliminating the corruption of the patronage system to get rid of servitors and other monstrous actions, the place should be burned down.

To put this another way there are plenty of places which are a lot more authoritarian and corrupt than the ideal in our world, none of them practice the wanton idiotic cruelty of the Imperium of Man. There is an actual scale there and there should be priorities.
 
No seriously we know this is not the case because hen the Imperium built hives in the Crusade era they were not this shit, they were not even close to this shit. Hell there are not shit hives in the Imperium presently, they are all in Ultramar. That is not a bastion of democracy and free will, they are just less terrible at organization

You make my point for me. Yes, the problem isn't technology, it is social organisation and power, and we literally had a sojourn in Ultramar that hammered this home. But the *point* of the IoM's overall organisational structure is that the Administratum has a strong preference for planets to be ruled by what amounts to an extremely hierarchical absolute leader, because from their point of view those kinds of polities are easy to 'deal' with - only a single person to manage and generally if you just let them have their pleasures and so on then they will keep the tithes and bribes flowing to the Administratum, and if the Administratum wants to do something extremely unacceptable to the world you only have to buy off/threaten one person, and if they ever get annoying or 'forget their place' then you can easily replace them with another interchangeable despot - whereas any other form of government requires actual attention and care and compromise and consultation and democratic consensus building and institutional maintenance and legitimation and so on from the Administratum to manage; so it acts accordingly. Ultramar only gets off as lightly as it does because of the combination of Guilliman spending a bunch of time and effort sculpting the overall social organisation and also being able to fend off Malcaladar and also having the Ultramarines and also a bunch of legal maneuvering early in the IoM to carve out space and warrant and also the fact that the 500 worlds will 100% act together to cause huge problems if the Administratum decides to intervene.

Anyway, I'm not saying 'Lucan was right, except for some reason don't burn it down', I'm saying that the chances that we have to do good and actually fix things will tend to be less like 'mind control/kill Antegymax-Ovum and put a puppet in place' or 'establish a patronage network in the AdMech with the goal of elevating radicals by doling out favours' and more like what happened with Justicar Alberich Fletcher, the Arbitrator and the trials and Viceroyship, or Grand Provost Marshal Theromestes Xempyre Kleng and the legal reforms.
 
You make my point for me. Yes, the problem isn't technology, it is social organisation and power, and we literally had a sojourn in Ultramar that hammered this home. But the *point* of the IoM's overall organisational structure is that the Administratum has a strong preference for planets to be ruled by what amounts to an extremely hierarchical absolute leader, because from their point of view those kinds of polities are easy to 'deal' with - only a single person to manage and generally if you just let them have their pleasures and so on then they will keep the tithes and bribes flowing to the Administratum, and if the Administratum wants to do something extremely unacceptable to the world you only have to buy off/threaten one person, and if they ever get annoying or 'forget their place' then you can easily replace them with another interchangeable despot - whereas any other form of government requires actual attention and care and compromise and consultation and democratic consensus building and institutional maintenance and legitimation and so on from the Administratum to manage; so it acts accordingly. Ultramar only gets off as lightly as it does because of the combination of Guilliman spending a bunch of time and effort sculpting the overall social organisation and also being able to fend off Malcaladar and also having the Ultramarines and also a bunch of legal maneuvering early in the IoM to carve out space and warrant and also the fact that the 500 worlds will 100% act together to cause huge problems if the Administratum decides to intervene.

Anyway, I'm not saying 'Lucan was right, except for some reason don't burn it down', I'm saying that the chances that we have to do good and actually fix things will tend to be less like 'mind control/kill Antegymax-Ovum and put a puppet in place' or 'establish a patronage network in the AdMech with the goal of elevating radicals by doling out favours' and more like what happened with Justicar Alberich Fletcher, the Arbitrator and the trials and Viceroyship, or Grand Provost Marshal Theromestes Xempyre Kleng and the legal reforms.

No the problem is also technology, the Imperium has much better tech during the Great Crusade and it was much more wide spread and standardized, the decay of the Imperium of man from fascist machine that could conquer a galaxy though war and diplomacy to rotting husk of a theocratic fascist mess was a constant and holistic process.

Also I at no point suggested mind control, I pointed out it was something the Emperor might do but which would most likely beyond the pale for Pandora so I am not sure why you even brought it up. Otherwise I agree with your actually fix things message I do think we should have some priorities, namely get rid of the stuff that is both evil and inefficient before working on the deep issues. This is turn three, it has been thirty years since we showed up.
 
Anyway, should we ever actually need to 'assassinate' someone or do another political purge. We don't really need to kill them, just put them far away from the levers of power, whether it's through forceful retirement or imprisonment or just dropping them into Pandora's realm or a number of other viable ideas doesn't really matter. There are plenty of ways to work around Pandora's compassion shit to do basic political stuff to deal with entrenched opponents.
 
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[X] Plan: Independent Demon Fighting
-[X] Pandora's Eyes (+2 Favour/Divination)
-[X] Teach Sanctic Sorcery's Wards (+3 Favour, 1 AP by Turn 6)
-[X] Acknowledgement of the Void Order (-3 Favour)
-[X] Telepathica Campus Support (-2 Favour)

Give the Martians as little as possible for exactly what we need and no more. A Gloriama is not needed, and is not worth the pricenof helping our enemies.
 
[X] Plan Visionary

I like this Plan the best. If the Admech uses Pan Pan's Divinations to find STC's, Pandora can weigh the dice to ensure that they wouldn't get anything too bad for us. Plus, it only requires that Pandora "narrow down" the search, no more and no less. If she were particularly spiteful, she could point them at an STC, only for the AdMech to arrive just a little too late to prevent its destruction and then Pandora can be a like "*shrugs* oh well, thats too bad"

Fuck giving the Admech anything more after this. Screw them.
 
I like this Plan the best. If the Admech uses Pan Pan's Divinations to find STC's, Pandora can weigh the dice to ensure that they wouldn't get anything too bad for us. Plus, it only requires that Pandora "narrow down" the search, no more and no less. If she were particularly spiteful, she could point them at an STC, only for the AdMech to arrive just a little too late to prevent its destruction and then Pandora can be a like "*shrugs* oh well, thats too bad"

Fuck giving the Admech anything more after this. Screw them.
Your assumption that Antegymax wouldn't realize this with her shown level competence and recorded observations about Pandora's skill at divination is a bit questionable in my mind. If we did that, if Swordo even will give us that option in the first place, we might end up sabotaging ourselves. In that scenario, Antegymax might very well pull away her support because of what she rightfully sees as a breach of their deal. And it would compromise our ability to make future deals with others too if revealed, because reputation for keeping your word kinda matters when making deals, treaties and so on.

Basically, I'd suggest that we don't let spite cloud our decision-making. However, your idea of directing her towards STCs and such that wouldn't be too harmful for us is sound. We could even direct her towards something that could be useful for us.
 
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Your assumption that Antegymax wouldn't realize this with her shown level competence and recorded observations about Pandora's skill at divination is a bit questionable in my mind. If we did that, if Swordo even will give us that option in the first place, we might end up sabotaging ourselves. In that scenario, Antegymax might very well pull away her support because of what she rightfully sees as a breach of their deal. And it would compromise our ability to make future deals with others too if revealed, because reputation for keeping your word kinda matters when making deals, treaties and so on.

Basically, I'd suggest that we don't let spite cloud our decision-making. However, your idea of directing her towards STCs and such that wouldn't be too harmful for us is sound. We could even direct her towards something that could be useful for us.

Yeah. My post would have been longer more in-depth, but unfortunately, trying to type on a phone is pain.

Basically, my thought process was that, since the only concession was that Pandora point them in the right direction and nothing more then she could just point them at STC's that would, at best, benefit her agenda or at worst not benefit the Admech all that much.

Plus, again, Pandora only needs to "narrow down" their search through her Divinations, nothing more and nothing less. If they fail then thats on them.
 
Anything that gives the Mechanicus a counter to Deva or Psykers is a very bad idea, those are our advantages and in the case of the Deva that could also be political legitimacy one day. There must be Mechanicus Deva in the Emperor and Pandora's collections who would support the reforms she'd want and they might be able to play the Messenger Angel role building up support within the Mechanicus.

If the Fabricator General can just flip a switch and get rid of them they seem a lot less like holy messengers all of a sudden.
 
Yeah. My post would have been longer more in-depth, but unfortunately, trying to type on a phone is pain.

Basically, my thought process was that, since the only concession was that Pandora point them in the right direction and nothing more then she could just point them at STC's that would, at best, benefit her agenda or at worst not benefit the Admech all that much.

Plus, again, Pandora only needs to "narrow down" their search through her Divinations, nothing more and nothing less. If they fail then thats on them.
On further thought, Antegymax will probably demand that she gets results to avoid exactly these kind of shenanigans. Which also means asking how viable and with what kind of forces she can assume that the Mechanicus can seize their prize with near-certainty. What kind of opposition they are going to face most probably, etc. Exactly the kind of details that will make trying to be clever and screwing her over harder. Because nothing in the option says that Pandora only has to narrow down the location to "roughly here".

And if they do not get their prize in the end, well then, either Pandora's boon of divination to them turned out to be worth less than promised in the deal so the deal is off, or alternatively she was actively sabotaging the Quest for Knowledge and the deal is off and relations with the Adeptus Mechanicus become even more strained. Basically, I'm pretty sure that Swordo won't allow us to wiggle out of this without Pandora giving her honest and full effort.
Anything that gives the Mechanicus a counter to Deva or Psykers is a very bad idea, those are our advantages and in the case of the Deva that could also be political legitimacy one day. There must be Mechanicus Deva in the Emperor and Pandora's collections who would support the reforms she'd want and they might be able to play the Messenger Angel role building up support within the Mechanicus.

If the Fabricator General can just flip a switch and get rid of them they seem a lot less like holy messengers all of a sudden.
They do not stop Pandora, so I assume they also don't block her Deva because the Wayfarer Discipline is one hell of a drug. Here, a quote from Swordo on the topic:
The better-than-normal ones. The can-block-even-her-own ones need outright Divine Lore, which she can't share willy-nilly. Part of the problem that the really good Black Ships have, actually.
Also, you are making a lot of assumptions about those kind of "Mechanicus Deva" fitting into the AdMech's beliefs if they started preaching something opposing the core doctrines of the Machine Cult that Antegymax believes in.
 
[X] Plan: Martian Problem Alchemy
-[X] Pandora's Eyes (+1 Favour/AP and +2x2 Favour/Divination; total of +5 Favour)
-[X] Teach Sanctic Sorcery's Wards (+3 Favour, 1 AP by Turn 6)
-[X] Acknowledgement of the Void Order (-3 Favour)
-[X] Telepathica Campus Support (-2 Favour)
-[X] The Amphion and its Escorts (-3 to not have any Tech-Priests aboard)
 
Anything that gives the Mechanicus a counter to Deva or Psykers is a very bad idea, those are our advantages and in the case of the Deva that could also be political legitimacy one day. There must be Mechanicus Deva in the Emperor and Pandora's collections who would support the reforms she'd want and they might be able to play the Messenger Angel role building up support within the Mechanicus.

If the Fabricator General can just flip a switch and get rid of them they seem a lot less like holy messengers all of a sudden.

They're also not Pandora's only options.

If the Mechanicuus actually makes improvements on stuff because of the wards- well a problem for us but not just us.

It's .. the trade is for the ship which has a wide spread of uses for the wards which actually don't cover all Pandora's options. (Mona says hi. Telepathica becoming the backbone of the Imperium in communication and transportation and some construction with Void Order also says hi).

My understanding is that Pandora is ultimately a support build. More honor guard is very much in her wheel house.

And as I recall we are in the build up to Eldar God Midwifing with 19 years of tier 3 Ageng helping set that up. More if any parts of it fits either Lily or more likely Mona's specialities.

More honor guard for getting best bird brother back and for a possible god raising next turn? When the Marine expansion is going to drop on Turn 6, too late if we're ready to go next turn?

Especially as getting Ynnead operational opens up options for other long term goals such as new options to check for Guiliman, Eldar Alliance foundation building and the other big nut that is Commoragh.

That ship isn't merely shiny, it's a major advantage just when we probably do need a big stick..

The option feels most unpalatable because it's the one that most threatens Pandora's future power. Everything else is favors eventually paid off. Or our most hated bit of contract.

I'm not saying that the wards are a "no that's good actually" problem. But that it's a headache shared with Chaos forces as opposed to only aimed at reform efforts or the sheer terrifyingly open box of lending her Mona...

We don't want to strengthen the Fabricator General's position. That isn't one to one with weakening the Mechanicus. Hitting Chaos at the same time options are better choices for when we have to appease..

[X] Plan: Martian Problem Alchemy
 
[X] Plan: Martian Problem Alchemy

Thought the ship was neat but there have been quite a few arguments for why it's not merely neat, but also really useful to have so I'll support bringing it under Pandora's authority.
 
Btw, I talked to Swordo on discord about the possibility for us to just throw in questions for Antegymax in the thread (EDIT: clarification, without voting for them), from which Swordo could then pick and choose if he felt they were relevant, which he said okay to. So big, High Lord -level questions and less on nitty-gritty details.

...Though I've had personally a hard time coming up with anything to ask that would be relevant. Talking about the Navigators and the Wayfarer Discipline would be relevant, but we cannot allow such ammunition fall into the hands of a political opponent before we have defused the situation with the Navilis Nobilite.

Hmmm. Nope. Cannot come up with anything currently that would fit no matter how much I think. Even things like the current industrial output of the Mechanicus and the Imperium and the ways we might be able to increase it (without innovation) would fall under the sphere of the High Lord of the Adeptus Administratum. Does anybody else have ideas for questions to throw in?
 
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Hmmm. Nope. Cannot come up with anything currently that would fit no matter how much I think. Even things like the current industrial output of the Mechanicus and the Imperium and the ways we might be able to increase it (without innovation) would fall under the sphere of the High Lord of the Adeptus Administratum. Does anybody else have ideas for questions to throw in?
I had few, though I don't think they count as "High Lord level":
[X] Questions for Antegymax
-[X] Is the Mechanicus truly the pinnacle of human science and development to her, even with there being alien civilizations there that have more advanced technology than even DAoT humanity had in its prime?
-[X] As she put it, we're not fond of Mechanicus as it is. Does she actually understand why?
 
I had few, though I don't think they count as "High Lord level":
Yeah, I don't think those work either. Besides, the answer to the first is pretty obvious one which can be found in the Informationals about the Machine Spirits, so Panda should know the answer to it already:
The Machine Cult also teaches of the evils of alien technology, the grave heresy of the Xeno that perverts the noble Machine Spirit and denies it of its rightful observance and care. It teaches that alien technologies do not possess Machine Spirits, or that their Machine Spirits are broken and tortured things, not rightfully ordained in the order of Deus Machina. Only Deus Machina can bestow the Soul, and so only Deus Machina can provide the divine ignition that births the Machine Spirit; all alien works are, then, soulless by definition, and if stolen from the works of the Ancients it is a perversion of the True Path.
So in their eyes, alien technology can be powerful, but it is evil, unholy, perverted, etc. and should be destroyed. But as it is pointed later in the same topic:
The Machine Cult, ultimately, teaches that the Machine Spirit is wholly human, that Deus Machina is wholly human.

They are wrong, but only partially.

The origins of the Machine Spirit are shrouded in myth and mystery, but can be considered a relatively recent phenomenon in the histories carved into the Sea of Souls, later the Warp. First appearing almost forty thousand years ago, tools and machines carefully tended to and maintained over years, decades, often centuries of good service would be imbued with almost a mind of their own, one that yearned to perform their purpose and which, well tended, would do it well. This was a commonality amongst all cultures, across all corners of the Galaxy, with the notable exception of the Eldar, whose perculiarities precluded the appearance of these animisms in their technology.
Yet this does not matter in this context, because millenia of doctrine and tradition says otherwise. And we are not going to be changing their minds about it.

And the second question is irrelevant in getting anything more than getting a couple of more spiteful words in. Compassion and basic human decency are seen as a weakness in the majority of the Machine Cult. And innovation and spreading of knowledge are something they are vehemently opposed in their doctrine, so we would be talking to a stone wall.

Basically, changing the core beliefs of someone's worldview is a near-impossible task on the best of days, and this case we are not only endangering that. We are also threatening the pillars of their industrial and technological near-monopoly, which is probably almost as worse.

So even if we somehow managed to convince whole Adeptus Mechanicus that many of the core tenets of their belief system are wrong... Would even the majority still be willing to relax their monopoly? Or would vast amounts of them fall into even worse state, into the lure of the Chaos and the Dark Mechanicum, or some genuinely dangerous and/or subversive alien technologies made out of nightmare fuel?

Because most of the members of the Adeptus Mechanicus are not anywhere near good people due to the Machine Cult shaping them like that. And taking away their beliefs is unlikely to suddenly change that.

Anyway, rant over about that. I'm still trying to think topics that would work. Preferably on potential topics for future collaboration where our interests do align even partially. But somehow I'm hitting empty, if not counting the topics that we currently cannot touch upon, like the Wayfarers.
 
Vote closed
Scheduled vote count started by Swordomatic on Jul 27, 2023 at 1:16 PM, finished with 128 posts and 70 votes.

  • [X] Plan: Martian Problem Alchemy
    -[X] Pandora's Eyes (+1 Favour/AP and +2x2 Favour/Divination; total of +5 Favour)
    -[X] Teach Sanctic Sorcery's Wards (+3 Favour, 1 AP by Turn 6)
    -[X] Acknowledgement of the Void Order (-3 Favour)
    -[X] Telepathica Campus Support (-2 Favour)
    -[X] The Amphion and its Escorts ( -3 to not have any Tech-Priests aboard)
    [X] Plan Visionary
    -[X] Pandora's Eyes 1 AP, 2x Divinations (+1 Favor, +4 Favor)
    -[X] Acknowledgement of the Void Order (-3 Favour)
    -[X] Telepathica Campus Support (-2 Favour)
    [X] Plan: Independent Demon Fighting
    -[X] Pandora's Eyes (+2 Favour/Divination)
    -[X] Teach Sanctic Sorcery's Wards (+3 Favour, 1 AP by Turn 6)
    -[X] Acknowledgement of the Void Order (-3 Favour)
    -[X] Telepathica Campus Support (-2 Favour)
    [X]Plan choke on your own ideals and die
    -[X] Pandora's Eyes (+1 Favour/AP, or +2 Favour/Divination) x4 Divination
    -[X] Teach Sanctic Sorcery's Wards (+3 Favour, 1 AP by Turn 6)
    -[X] Acknowledgement of the Void Order (-3 Favour)
    -[X] Telepathica Campus Support (-2 Favour)
    -[X] The Amphion and its Escorts ( -3 to not have any Tech-Priests aboard)
    -[X] Antegymax's Political Support (-1 Favour/Vote)x3
    [X]Plan "You Get What You Earned"
    -[X] Pandora's Eyes (+2 Favour/Divination) X2
    -[X] Pandora's Political Support (+1 Favour/Influence)
    -[X] Lend Antegymax Mona's Ear (+3 Favour)
    --[X] And you use what she teaches
    -[X] Acknowledgement of the Void Order (-3 Favour)
    -[X] Telepathica Campus Support (-2 Favour)
    -[X] The Amphion and its Escorts ( -3 to not have any Tech-Priests aboard)
    [X] Questions for Antegymax
    -[X] Is the Mechanicus truly the pinnacle of human science and development to her, even with there being alien civilizations there that have more advanced technology than even DAoT humanity had in its prime?
    -[X] As she put it, we're not fond of Mechanicus as it is. Does she actually understand why?
    [X] Plan Panda can't Politic, but Mona can. Basic
    -[X] Lend Antegymax Mona's Ear (+3 Favour)
    -[X] Pandora's Eyes (divination) (+2 Favour)
    -[X] Acknowledgement of the Void Order (-3 Favour)
    -[X] Telepathica Campus Support (-2 Favour)
    [X] Plan 'Reject techbase, focus on the core problem, but not in anger'
    -[X] Give nothing and ask for nothing for the Telepathica, but not an 'out of hand' dismissal, just more like 'not being able to come to an agreement for now'
    -[X] Think about how to untangle the problem of the Mechanicus
    -[X] If an opportunity for organisational change or shoring Antegymax's position up so that she can risk being less foolish and evil comes up during the conversation, use it - for example, 'I can lead you to an STC fragment using Divination, but in return I'm not going to ask for Telepathica stuff, I'm going to help you with some kind of organisational reform that makes you less vulnerable to this right wing shit', or 'yes, I do in fact happen to know a Golden Age scientist (which would be volunteering Mona) who is also blessed by the Omnissiah, and I am willing to ask her to teach you, however the cost for that is that you would have to be willing to learn, which would be dangerous as actual science involves social changes in order to actually be able to understand it (eg getting Mona to teach them not just Science but also Mona's values / theory of political economy / etc)'
    [X] Plan No Deal
    -[X] Walk away.
    [X] Plan Panda can't Politic, but Mona can. Learning to Politic with Battleships.
    -[X] Lend Antegymax Mona's Ear (+3 Favour)
    -[X] Pandora's Eyes (X2 divination) (+4 Favour)
    -[X] Pandora's Political Support (+1 Favor, 1 Influence)
    -[X] Acknowledgement of the Void Order (-3 Favour)
    -[X] Telepathica Campus Support (-2 Favour)
    -[X] The Amphion and its Escorts (no techpriests) -3 Favour
 
Hmm...well, while I'm not the biggest fan of the winning plan, it's not bad. We don't give up anything too damaging, and we get what we need from the Mechanicus. I really hope that the Ward knowledge doesn't wind up causing any major issues, but hey, maybe we'll get lucky and the Fabricator General will wind up offing herself in a ward experiment by accident.
 
I wonder if offering a Divination for a Political Vote would've been worth it... but opportunity cost and all made it so we really couldn't afford to go that route.

Still, having a Gloriana Class Battleship will do wonders for Pandora's legitimacy; while her short stature unfortunately means she will never truly gain the respect of any right-thinking Imperial, having a large boat to flaunt should shore up her political standing. Size matters most, after all! :V
 
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So, 1 year for divining STCs, 1 more for the wards, 2 for Sanguinus, 1 more for finishing finding the Star Child, that'll leave 5 years free next turn. We'll probably want to spend 4 of those on supporting the Telepathica Reforms (possibly with Focus). The last one... can be anything really. More godhead powerups, actually doing a little relaxing, who knows?
 
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