I'm going to be honest, given the scale of the horrorshows that are routinely inflicted in 40k all the time, I can't say that I consider Lucan's mind-controlling a bunch of Imperium sailors so that Battlefleet Solar would fight among itself to be morally worse than the routine "background radiation" of the setting. I suspect we'd hardly blink if someone did the same thing to a massive fleet of orks, and from the point of view of Nova Terra it would have made very little practical diffference whether it was orks or the Imperial Navy because they'd be dead either way.

Honestly, the only part I'm at all inclined to hold a grudge over is Lucan's attempt to frame Pandora, which I understand that he did based on his assessment of Pandora at the time but still.

To be extra fair him dying is only a problem for him and the rest of the galaxy only in so much as his plans work. Lucan's actions can only be interpreted as moral from a consequentialist perspective... but we the players know he is wrong. Out of character we know that if Pandora gives up that's it GG, the galaxy is fucked which means that by the very metric Lucan is using to justify his monstrous actions he does not get over the line.
I may be a bit confused by your analysis.

My own observation was specifically limited to the question of Lucan's inaction up to and through the recent crises of the past few centuries when he started quietly laying groundwork for Nova Terra. And that Lucan does have excellent reason to "play it cagey" in terms of avoiding an open clash between himself (and whatever forces he can raise up) and his father (and the Imperium as a whole).

"Because I'll get killed trying to do that" is in fact a sufficient motivation for Lucan to not do whatever 'that' is.
 
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I may be a bit confused by your analysis.

My own observation was specifically limited to the question of Lucan's inaction up to and through the recent crises of the past few centuries when he started quietly laying groundwork for Nova Terra. And that Lucan does have excellent reason to "play it cagey" in terms of avoiding an open clash between himself (and whatever forces he can raise up) and his father (and the Imperium as a whole).

"Because I'll get killed trying to do that" is in fact a sufficient motivation for Lucan to not do whatever 'that' is.

You cannot really build a moral system in 40K that is based on demonology. That is where you get 'don't eat the strawberries because they are grown by slaves' or 'don't kill the fanatical inquisitors who are causing mega-deaths because killing is wrong', not workable with the context and conceit of the setting. Which leaves both Pandora and Lucan with consequentialism, do bad things to obtain good ends. But the thing about that moral framework is it only works if you succeed, there are no participation trophies in the game of 'more suffering now in specific ways later so we can get to less suffering later'. We the players know Lucan can't succeed. The only way for him not to be a monster is if we help him... while every third word out of his mouth is about how much he dislikes gods in general and Pandora in particular. That does not a likable character make.

Moving on to his own survival if he had not chosen to act on a galactic stage to decide to lives and who dies according to his design then there is nothing wrong with him thinking of his own survival first second and always, but having decided to play the game his life cannot be worth more than the lives of trillions, his own survival has to be subordinate to his plans or he's a hypocrite of unimaginable proportions. It would be like if Pandora placed her own survival for its own sake above the lives of imperial citizens she is spending like water by virtue of being the Regent.
 
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Moving on to his own survival if he had not chosen to act on a galactic stage to decide to lives and who dies according to his design then there is nothing wrong with him thinking of his own survival first second and always, but having decided to play the game his life cannot be worth more than the lives of trillions, his own survival has to be subordinate to his plans or he's a hypocrite of unimaginable proportions. It would be like if Pandora placed her own survival for its own sake above the lives of imperial citizens she is spending like water by virtue of being the Regent.
Well, I'm talking about decisions Lucan made BEFORE the Nova Terran uprising- all that time he spent not confronting or engaging with the Imperium.

I don't think that even the stern consequentialism you seem to favor can justify taking a person who's spent millennia keeping their head down because while they hate the system they don't think they can fix it and would die in the attempt, and then calling them a hypocrite because after that they change their minds, think they see a way to fix it, and make the attempt.

We cannot say that Lucan is in the wrong for intervening now in a way that we are convinced will fail, while also condemning the past decision to not intervene in the past because at that time he expected to fail too.

...

Of course, I also tend to favor hybridized systems that blend rule-based ethics and consequential ethics in ways you might find illogical. I find pure consequentialism where you're a hero if you succeed and definitionally a monster if you fail to carry its own internal contradictions, personally.
 
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Moving on to his own survival if he had not chosen to act on a galactic stage to decide to lives and who dies according to his design then there is nothing wrong with him thinking of his own survival first second and always, but having decided to play the game his life cannot be worth more than the lives of trillions, his own survival has to be subordinate to his plans or he's a hypocrite of unimaginable proportions. It would be like if Pandora placed her own survival for its own sake above the lives of imperial citizens she is spending like water by virtue of being the Regent.
We are talking about the man who was prepared to die just to spite the Chaos Gods during his second attempt at raiding the Realms of Chaos, considering he said he didn't expect to live through that. I don't think he places much value on his own life outside of his plan requiring him to be alive. And if he could come up with a plan that required his death but saved the galaxy from the Imperium and the Emperor, but at the same time didn't make things worse in the long run in other ways like the Chaos running rampant? He would have already taken it.

Hell, I wouldn't surprised if his current plan culminates with him sacrificing himself to reach whatever end-goal he has in mind. After all that is said and done, he and Pandora are pretty similar in quite many ways based on what we've observed.
 
Well, I'm talking about decisions Lucan made BEFORE the Nova Terran uprising- all that time he spent not confronting or engaging with the Imperium.

I don't think that even the stern consequentialism you seem to favor can justify taking a person who's spent millennia keeping their head down because while they hate the system they don't think they can fix it and would die in the attempt, and then calling them a hypocrite because after that they change their minds, think they see a way to fix it, and make the attempt.

We cannot say that Lucan is in the wrong for intervening now in a way that we are convinced will fail, while also condemning the past decision to not intervene in the past because at that time he expected to fail too.

...

Of course, I also tend to favor hybridized systems that blend rule-based ethics and consequential ethics in ways you might find illogical. I find pure consequentialism where you're a hero if you succeed and definitionally a monster if you fail to carry its own internal contradictions, personally.

IRL I also think pure consequentialism at best very suspect (way too easy to fall into the Hard Man trap), but 40K, especially if one is considering positions of leadership asks the kinds of questions you can only answer that way.
 
IRL I also think pure consequentialism at best very suspect (way too easy to fall into the Hard Man trap), but 40K, especially if one is considering positions of leadership asks the kinds of questions you can only answer that way.
Maybe, but that still leaves us with seemingly contradictory results if we adopt the specific position of "if you act and turn out to be wrong, that makes you a monster in and of itself."

[shrug]

Right now I'm on decaffeinated brain mode, and I'm not really able to express myself quite as well as I'd like. But I see that as the big issue.
 
Maybe, but that still leaves us with seemingly contradictory results if we adopt the specific position of "if you act and turn out to be wrong, that makes you a monster in and of itself."

[shrug]

Right now I'm on decaffeinated brain mode, and I'm not really able to express myself quite as well as I'd like. But I see that as the big issue.

I don't think there is a contradiction. To put it another way: 'For a leader bearing enough responsibility and taking upon themselves deeds that would otherwise be beyond the pale the last refuge, the final virtue is competence in preventing worse harm.'
 
Suffice to say that I consider it... not really viable... to have a definition of "good" and "bad" where factors of blind luck outside a person's control can determine whether their actions are retroactively considered "bad" or "good."
 
Suffice to say that I consider it... not really viable... to have a definition of "good" and "bad" where factors of blind luck outside a person's control can determine whether their actions are retroactively considered "bad" or "good."

I mean it's not like being a leader is a matter of blind luck, one could at any moment set down the responsibility. As long as one is a leader and is willing to take the decisions one also takes the risks.
 
@Swordomatic; as an author, I just wanted to say that I think the background work you do figuring out why NPCs act the way they do in this universe is incredible. The world feels real and deep. You're doing an amazing job, and I love the quest despite not really liking 40K generally. Bringing in Pandora's theme of Hope as a contrast to all the 40K grimdark and telling the story of how she fixes a galaxy that desperately needs someone to save it, that was brilliant. And it makes for a story I love reading.
 
Quick question (and attempt to draw the conversation away from Lucan) for you @Swordomatic does the goddess T'au'va exist in this quest?
 
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So, we know that retrieving Primarchs will grant us Emperor Favors, but does anyone think eliminating Chaos Primarchs will do so? Honestly, I could see argument for yes and no on this one.
 
So, we know that retrieving Primarchs will grant us Emperor Favors, but does anyone think eliminating Chaos Primarchs will do so? Honestly, I could see argument for yes and no on this one.
Might depend on how we do it?

Did we get one for neutralizing Angron? Though....did we actually *destroy* the Chaos taint in him, or did we basically carve it off to go run on its own while purified Angron went back to the Realm of Sacrifice?


Also, I really want to help Roboute soon. Because maybe it will make Calgar less sad, and Calgar seems like a guy who deserves a break.
 
Given the guidelines in the Emperor Favors, I think Angron is actually a secret we need to direly keep, as the Emperor "will not tolerate" us claiming any of his creations.
 
Might depend on how we do it?

Did we get one for neutralizing Angron? Though....did we actually *destroy* the Chaos taint in him, or did we basically carve it off to go run on its own while purified Angron went back to the Realm of Sacrifice?


Also, I really want to help Roboute soon. Because maybe it will make Calgar less sad, and Calgar seems like a guy who deserves a break.
From what I remember, we did destroy the Chaos Taint and the Nails that made Angron such a psycho in the first place without getting a Favor, but that was back during the first turn, so maybe things have changed.

As for Roboute, we are planning on it, but due to Pandora's limitations and thread desire to avoid wasting an Emperor Favor, we have to go about it in a roundabout way. Basically, we ensure Ynnead is born, then in payment, Ynnead will use Eldar-cheating skills to heal Guilliman. That way Roboute is healed, we get a Favor and don't have to spend one of healing Guilliman, and we show the Emperor that having the Eldar help us is worth extending a bit of trust in them. We're planning on handling the Ynnead stuff this turn, but we're not sure how long it's going to take just yet.
 
Given the guidelines in the Emperor Favors, I think Angron is actually a secret we need to direly keep, as the Emperor "will not tolerate" us claiming any of his creations.
Pandora didn't Claim Angron as that was the entire point of setting him free, giving him the ability to choose for himself. Plus the Emperor knows that Angron is hanging out in the Realm of Sacrifice.
[Now. The matter of Angron.]

At once, your blood turned to ice and your eyes narrowed. Your arms lowered, remaining open yet tense as you got ready for any number of possibilities that might yet happen. "He is free. He's not going back to Khorne. Everything else is up to him, that is the point of what I offered him."

[So he is with you. As I surmised.] Ineffably, imperceptibly, you felt the Emperor's gaze shift onto you. [Know that he was once marked by Chaos. He is free now, but he remains a potential threat. Nothing remains certain.]

Your eyes narrowed further. So this is where that damn paranoia and retributive tendency towards Chaos comes from. "I'll keep it under advisement. My house, my rules, my mess, my responsibility."

[You are my Regent. The integrity of your Realm directly affects your own ability to Rule. Your responsibility. My concern.] Your irritation spikes, but the Emperor sighs. [But you are not wrong. Your matters are well enough in hand. Next: The matter of your Amaranthine Astronomican.]
 
And Commoragh is in the Webway, not the EoT. Slaanesh would have eaten all the Drukhari if it was the case.

Well, yeah, but what about Khaine's Gate? Pop in and pop back out. 15 minute summoning. It'll be easy. And isn't geographically commoragh located within the Eye of Terror if you placed it over real space? However much that matters in terms of the warp and the web way. Although I guess it depends on where the portals there all lead to... Eh I don't know.
 
Well, yeah, but what about Khaine's Gate? Pop in and pop back out. 15 minute summoning. It'll be easy. And isn't geographically commoragh located within the Eye of Terror if you placed it over real space? However much that matters in terms of the warp and the web way. Although I guess it depends on where the portals there all lead to... Eh I don't know.
Khaine Gate is likely heavily fortified, and if summoning demons through it was so easy Commoragh would have fallen long ago.

And given that the Fall destroyed a lot of Webway paths, Commoragh couldn't have survived if it was where the Eye is given it was the epicentre of the destruction. Not that I think there's a real-space correspondence with the Webway.
 
You know, I just realized something. You know how we sent the Solar Reserve to.help Maccrage? Well, once Guilliman shows up, he'll be able to help out that situation even more. He is supposed to be an excellent general after all.
 
Pretty sure taht applies to more or less all of the Primarchs
To a degree yeah. All the Primarchs are superb warriors and generals but they all also have things they're good at as well, above and beyond the Primarch baseline. Like Sanguinius who is one of if not the greatest duelist among his brothers.
 
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Actually, I have a question: What would the Power Stone from Space Marine 1 be in the context of this fic? Random Chaos relic? Or actually a thing of importance?
 
Interlude - The Song of Ulthanash New
040.M42

Chamber of the Stars
Craftworld Ulthanash Shelwe


There was something awfully off-putting about the Craftworld Ulthwe. Perhaps it was the vast expanses of wraithbone constantly keening with the sleeping songs of the dead, inducted along each spire and strut from the Infinity Circuit ensconced within the heart of the world ship. Or maybe it was the songs of the living, Bonesingers bringing about new creations, Aspect Warriors singing of war and battle to focus themselves, Warlocks honing the craft of the Warp or Farseers seeking out the future.

More than likely, it was the way each and every last one of them, young and old, dead and alive, looked at her with fear and derision as they passed her by, like a mongrel dog that had grown plasma cannons and sepsis. Ten thousand years since the Fall ended, fifteen thousand years since the Dominion broke, and the one thing the Asuryani kept from their roots was an overbearing superiority complex.

It would be so, so easy to hide herself, wear the skin of an Eldar in their eyes, or simply disappear. Part of her even considered wearing the guise of a Daemon, just to see how quickly before the swords and shuriken guns came out. But alas, she came here with a job to do. Because her big sister asked her nicely.

"If it helps," the raven-haired Archangel next to her mused, "They aren't thrilled with me, either."

Mona shrugged in part-commiseration, part-instinct, before she frowned as the implication processed. "Wait, but Ulthwe actually likes Pandora."

"They respect her, I don't know about like. But I ate a Lord of Change, so."

"Ah, right. I always forget that part about you."

Lily Archaman, the Thief of Time, smiled angelically. "Some say I'm quite a charmer."

"You're Pan's girlfriend-wife. That's probably religious canon."

"It is, actually!"

Footsteps approached. Mona's ghost of a smile vanished and she rose to her feet, meeting the Exarchs that followed behind Eldrad Ulthran. Nine Exarchs for nine Phoenix Lords, each of them looking warily at her as they stood clad in ancient armour and new flesh. She crossed her arms back at them, clad in armour of black carapace and yellow electric veins of a design older than their vaunted Exarch armour. None of them stood a chance against her, even together, and she knew that bothered them.

Unlike his escort, however, Eldrad had the temerity to smile, though it was only the slightest curve in an otherwise terse line.

He glanced to the side and a Bonesinger choir belted an elegy. A table rose from the ground of the garden, as well as a trio of stools. He took his seat, as did Mona and Lily. For a time, the atmosphere of the gathering was tense and thick, too thick for even the peerless blades of the Howling Banshees.

"The Harlequins have proven helpful in the preparations," Eldrad said, his fingers tented for of course they were. "The five Croneswords of Morai-Heg have been located and we may be able to claim them. The last, whose name has been lost to the ages, lies within the Palace of Slaanesh, but with your aid, reclaiming it should be no trouble."

"That sounds like a lot of trouble," Lily retorted.

"So we have a better solution," Mona replied. She held her hand up and grasped at the air, turning her wrist as a sorcerous array twisted. From it she pulled and a cylinder followed, silver and grey. Popping the cap off, she removed the scroll carried within and laid it out for all to see, long enough that it draped over the edge by Eldrad. "This is the plan that we've drafted for Pandora. It will give you Ynnead, provided everything goes to plan."

Eldrad frowned and he read the scroll, his eyes widening with every passage he saw. With his fingers he traced each line, reading it over and over, before he looked up. "Can this work? Can this design even be drawn by mortal hands?"

"No. But the one drawing it is hardly mortal, is she?"

Lily smiled kindly. "I'm proof, if you're looking for credentials."

Eldrad read them again, but now he frowned. "But there's a flaw. Power alone is not enough to bring forth Ynnead. We will need a focus in order to draw her forth, and there is no place in the pattern for such a focus, much less one large enough to bring forth a God."

"Normally correct. And Pandora is not as great a Sorcerer as my brother, so she cannot compensate for that on the fly. But," and Mona raised a finger, "You misread the design, Ulthran. Expand your understanding. The circle can make use of such a locus, you just need to think bigger."

"The only such locus would have to be the ground it rests upon, and-"

Eldrad Ulthran held his breath suddenly. Then he released it and let out a laugh. "Ah, I see. I see! You will use a world for her! The death of a planet, fitting for the birth of a God of the Dead!"

The Exarchs felt a wave of wary, but were blown more away by a sweep of the Ninthborn's hand. "Don't worry, it's not going to be bloody Ulthanash Shelwe. A Craftworld won't be enough, anyways, and why spend a good thing when there are plenty of other candidates available? Lily and I have had this pattern ready for years, we were simply looking for a number of suitable worlds to plant it on."

"A number larger than none, I would hope?"

Mona scoffed openly before the oldest of the Farseers, which galled the Eldar greatly - save Eldrad himself. "Obviously. When I take a job I make sure it's done, even if it means I do it myself. And we have three candidates. I'm sure you can guess at the first."

Eldrad breathed and the name left his lips as a shallow whisper. "Virmosae, the Last Watchworld… Asuryan's fetters would be suitable for her birth. A rebirth."

Mona nodded. "And there are two more after that."

"Eidafaeron," a voice like a gentle shriek said, and suddenly Mona felt her skin tense, the hairs on her arms standing on end. It was a rare feeling for her. The knowledge that a proper peer was present. As she and Lily turned about, the Phoenix Lord Jain Zar, Storm of Silence, strode towards them with languid, yet purposeful footsteps. "A place I once called home, now fief of the Daemon Ali'Slath'Sleresh the Heartslayer. A Daemon World. It will be a suitable offering for the Bane of the Usurper."

"Can it truly be, my Lady?" The Howling Banshee that stood with Eldrad asked, all but speechless to see her Phoenix Lord present. Jain Zar simply glanced in Lily's direction, and when the Archdeva nodded did the same.

"One who has walked there recently will know better than I, who have not been home since the Dominion fell," Jain Zar spoke, each word carefully measured before it was spoken. "But as the birthplace of the Warrior Path and the homeworld of Asurmen and I, the myth that binds us makes it a suitable sacrifice indeed."

She turned then to Mona. "But there is one place left. Yes?"

"Yes," Mona replied. "En route to Eidafaeron, I found a path that my sister Valeria blazed a long time ago. On a whim I followed it while Lily visited the Crone World and braved many dangers as I delved deeper and deeper into the Warp. But I found it, in a place so deep that not even Gods enter carelessly."

"I hardly believed it when she told me of it," Lily said. "But it has the potential to be the most promising sacrifice of all."

"And it would cost very little, even compared to Eidafaeron," Mona said. "For it is a place that has been dead for eons and eons. The Homeworld of the Asur, Ulthuan."

If there was a gasp, Mona did not hear it, nor did she feel it. But the hollowness in the atmosphere she sensed was as good as could be expected.

"That is a name not even I have heard except in old stories from my childhood," Eldrad said. "But even I know that Ulthuan was destroyed when the Starborn invaded the Sea. How is it that anything survived?"

"A good question, and one I can't answer," Mona replied. "But the piece my sister found and walked a path towards is perhaps the best that could be hoped for. For is Ynnead not the embers of Asuryan, inheritor of the mantle of Phoenix King, yet a title she cannot claim while She Who Thirsts sits the throne?"

"Then what have you found?" Eldrad asked, almost desperate now to know. "Tell me! What else remains of Asuryan?!"

"Not only Asuryan, but the others who claimed the crown before him," Mona replied gracefully. "For I have found the Island of Flame and the Shrine of the Phoenix King upon it, from where the Phoenix Kings of old once ruled, where the Phoenix Kings of old once inherited their crowns and reignited their flames, and where the Incarna of old once bent the knee and paid homage to the King of the Firstborn. Now that flame is cinders and Ulthuan broken, but were Ynnead to be born from that brazier's embers by the efforts of an Incarna…"

Mona trailed off, her words unsaid yet deafening. And not one, not even Eldrad Ulthran or Jain Zar, dared speak, lest they undermine the gravity of those words.

For were Ynnead born in such a place… There may be a Phoenix King once again.
 
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