- Location
- United Kingdom
Agreed lets move forward, only discuss Lucan if we plan to work with or talk with Lucan in game.
A Song Of Peace: Imperial Regent Quest [40k]
- Thread starter Swordomatic
- Start date
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- Tags
- hololive warhammer 40k (warhammer) science fiction crossover female protagonist beta-chan quest church of hope dokia breaks the world e10 forever 18 in the grim dark future there is only dokahorse little brother collection quest panda quest sui-chan wa kyou mou kawaii unangries your angron you must construct additional siblings
Its been a while since I read this - Am I remembering it wrong?
I thought Lucan was fermenting a big rebellion (aka making it much harder to prevent all those apocalypse events) and the general was sent with the fleet to stop that which had a lot of implied nastiness of Imperials "restoring order" which is terrible but seems like it should be smaller scale.
I mean - I can see that as the consequence for crushing a success revolution but I thought the general was sent in before that? Still horrible and big numbers due to the scale involved, but preventing the more large scale grimdark stuff by prempting it.
Well if discussion about Lucan is done, I suppose it has been a minute or two...
Ahem, LET'S GO FOR AN ECCLESIARCH AGENT! Or if every Agent is a straight up Stratigos, which don't know if Emperor just tosses them out whenever, then get that other Saint that we past up on. Saint Sabbat, found it.
Toss her at Pacificus to quickly solve the Wars of Faith with the golden boys and then have her shake hands at Terra.
Ahem, LET'S GO FOR AN ECCLESIARCH AGENT! Or if every Agent is a straight up Stratigos, which don't know if Emperor just tosses them out whenever, then get that other Saint that we past up on. Saint Sabbat, found it.
Toss her at Pacificus to quickly solve the Wars of Faith with the golden boys and then have her shake hands at Terra.
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- Location
- Singapore
Haugard was dispatched to deal with the 13th Black Crusade's remnants in Segmentum Obscurus, which he dealt with easily. He then went on to deal with Pacificus on his own initiative, revealing the Nova Terra Interregnum ahead of time (they're meant to only appear on Turn 6 if not later) and forcing Lucan to show his hand or let the Nova Terra Interregnum die before it could properly form as a Segmentum-sized entity. Prior to the arrival of Battlefleet Solar in force to Nova Terra, Haugard was already fighting across the Segmentum quashing rebellions everywhere, before he realised what was going on and that he was about to be witness to a major secession, hence why he went straight to Nova Terra in order to neutralise it before it could get off the ground.
Here's an insane idea, what if we declare the Nova Tera Lucan personal fief and give him the seat that just opened up in the council.
I'm not sure what exactly is known about him in the imperium but as a child of the emperor this should netlly solve the legitmacyy problems of the nova tera (how can they be in rebellion when led by a child of the emperor) get lucan to interact with more and see how were trying to make things better.
And hes obviously going to be using this posetion to infiltrate the imperium we could later utilize his infaltretion to help in our possible civil wars.
I'm not sure what exactly is known about him in the imperium but as a child of the emperor this should netlly solve the legitmacyy problems of the nova tera (how can they be in rebellion when led by a child of the emperor) get lucan to interact with more and see how were trying to make things better.
And hes obviously going to be using this posetion to infiltrate the imperium we could later utilize his infaltretion to help in our possible civil wars.
ReaperofInterest
Herald of Disaster
SO HOW ABOUT THAT CIAPHAS CAIN HUH?! He's been through a lot, so I kind of want to leave him to his retirement, but at the same time, having a dedicated politics man would be very helpful for getting things done.
I am just passing by, but IIRC you actually had to send Custodes to prevent alien-mutant pogroms?
If you want to subvert the Ecclesiarchy, we already have the best agent we're gonna get for it. Her name is Pandora Cadmus.
- Location
- in between
While I pray this is just me being cynical, I have long had the impression that this opinion is a minority one on this forum.
Pandora is so shady though. People complaining about how politicians don't blindly follow her because she's the Emperor's daughter really take them for granted.
Pandora is throwing out so many radical reforms left and right, bringing in xenos, uplifting mutants, teaching and hoarding suspicious psyker tomfoolery. I wouldn't trust her all the way either!
And the funniest thing is, she is kinda doing things against the Emperor's will sometimes, she literally lied to him in the last chapter alone.
It would be good to have a familiar face, straight from the Big Man himself, someone who knows how to actually talk with and negotiate with politicians, and win the hearts and minds of the people. Also an Agent that could actually stay on Terra. Clearly, Pandora doesn't stick around often enough as her support base in Solar is still less than desirable.
Pandora is throwing out so many radical reforms left and right, bringing in xenos, uplifting mutants, teaching and hoarding suspicious psyker tomfoolery. I wouldn't trust her all the way either!
"Oh you want me to do a Damocles Crusade? Nah, we have a xenos domicile now. Also here's another never before seen child of your god. Ignore how she seems to despise his work."
"Oh we lost a massive portion of one of the Segmentums? Yeah don't worry about it, just another sibling, don't fight them."
"What? No I didn't get rid of the Inquisition because they were a possible threat to sniffing out my secrets, they really were corrupt and needed to go!"
"What do you mean that the Psyker Council positions I suborned after secret training and oddly pink cult shenanigans are suspect?"
"I know my reforms are being met with pushback because they really are radical and perhaps I rushed into them without considering them all the way through...but we'll talk about it in a decade! I'm gonna go with this xenos cabal to initiate a massive Warp ritual, we can talk about this later, byyyye."
"Oh we lost a massive portion of one of the Segmentums? Yeah don't worry about it, just another sibling, don't fight them."
"What? No I didn't get rid of the Inquisition because they were a possible threat to sniffing out my secrets, they really were corrupt and needed to go!"
"What do you mean that the Psyker Council positions I suborned after secret training and oddly pink cult shenanigans are suspect?"
"I know my reforms are being met with pushback because they really are radical and perhaps I rushed into them without considering them all the way through...but we'll talk about it in a decade! I'm gonna go with this xenos cabal to initiate a massive Warp ritual, we can talk about this later, byyyye."
And the funniest thing is, she is kinda doing things against the Emperor's will sometimes, she literally lied to him in the last chapter alone.
It would be good to have a familiar face, straight from the Big Man himself, someone who knows how to actually talk with and negotiate with politicians, and win the hearts and minds of the people. Also an Agent that could actually stay on Terra. Clearly, Pandora doesn't stick around often enough as her support base in Solar is still less than desirable.
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Ciaphas cain is a weird one.
The guy is competent and a skilled swordsman.
But on the level we are operating at he isn't that competent, he's not some super administrator or anything. (Frankly he is depicted as pretty lazy, it's just nice that the guy whose job it is to shoot people is lazy.) and everyone at this level that fights is a good fighter.
What he is that makes him worth looking at is that he is a fucking cockroach. He just won't die no matter how much the universe tries to kill him.
He's not the guy you put somewhere to fix things, he's the guy you put somewhere that you need someone to last longer then a year while you fix something else.
Edit: like, I like Cain and want to see him in the quest because he's a fun character, but he's not, like, that useful as a retainer or agent.
He seems he would be a low T1 or a T0 with a gimmick that lets him survive problems without actually solving them. Just slow them down.
E.g he's Bob the hydra agent from marvel.
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I kinda hope that we can get him as teacher for the schola
- Location
- SEAsia
- Pronouns
- Thou
It's maybe not a good idea to bring Lucan in a room filled with some of the people whose necks he most wants to throttle.
Swordo mentioned he was quietly enjoying his retirement (teaching on Perlia most likely) while Amberley's been recruited as one of the least murdery Inquisitors.
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ReaperofInterest
Herald of Disaster
To clarify, we have WOG that Caiphas Cain IS a potential T1 Agent, it's just that he's specced into politics like how Kaldor Draigo is specced into combat and anti-demon capabilities. He's not that useful in fights, at least at our level, but he's very good at dealing with others diplomatically, even the ones who know his public reputation is a load of crap.
But then we get into the problem of 'is a T1 agent really worth chasing with the limited actions we have?'
Again, I like Cain, and if he fell into our lap I'm all for it. But he's not that useful over others.
ReaperofInterest
Herald of Disaster
A fair enough point of view. I have to admit, considering how many plates we have to keep juggling, I'm not 100% on board with spending AP to get T1 Agents myself. Now if he was a T2 Agent, I might consider a few AP a decent investment, but since he's just a T1, you do have a good point.
Have Guilliman pick Cain up on the way from Ultramar to Terra. Perlia is apparently near the Damocles Gulf. After we help the Administratum bodily shove Guilliman under several metric tons of paperwork, we can toss the Hero of the Imperium the illustrious position of Schola leader.
With any luck, which Ciaphas has ALL of (good and bad), Cain might even be near Macragge when Ynnead revives Papa Smurf, crucially interrupting a Necron assault on the Eldar Goddess.
We just need an Omake of Cain going to meet some colleagues in Macragge for a simple guest lecturing that definitely won't go wrong...
With any luck, which Ciaphas has ALL of (good and bad), Cain might even be near Macragge when Ynnead revives Papa Smurf, crucially interrupting a Necron assault on the Eldar Goddess.
We just need an Omake of Cain going to meet some colleagues in Macragge for a simple guest lecturing that definitely won't go wrong...
Thanks for that clarification
For the whole nova tera thing - is Lucan actually doing better than the imperials at changing things? Like without ethnically cleansing/genociding billions of fanatical loyalists?
If so, can we copy that?
- Location
- San Francisco
He is also our father's funniest clown.
Icipall
Don't worry, we can fanfix that!
- Location
- Cold snow fields of Finland
I'd love to see the Iconoclast RT appear. Especially if they managed to get the Iconoclast Golden Ending.
If you can lift the veil a bit more, what exactly glued Haugard to the fact that this wasn't just bunch of small rebellions, some smoldering embers from the original Interregnum, but an actual movement aiming for violent secession and where he could find its head?
Technically we just got one in Sanguinius.
Much as I would love to see what's essentially a T1 Agent who's managed to achieve impressively effective diplomatic rapprochement with the Asuryani and Harlequins...
...I think our odds of getting a friendly C'Tan shard for free are virtually nil.
Some people may say he ain't worth it given he's a T1. But in my opinion he worth just enough for us to nab.
Not only does him giving Panda the personal HERO OF THE IMPERIUM SEAL OF APPROVAL (TM) make our lives easier (I know he can't make the High Lords do squat, but the lower masses and elcheons of the Administratum would take his word) but he could also help us specifically with pushing some of our reforms (like on psykers and mutants).
Dude has first hand experience working with a blank (which is close enough to a mutie) and could provide examples of why people like Juergen are essential to the Imperium's survival.
Also, we need to get Cain in a position to meet Calgar, that way to the two of them can have their TTS "Mood Kindred" moment.
- Location
- Europe
Lucan was forced into the situation because of his own actions. No man is an island. Lucan knew that there was a risk that Imperium would discover the Nova Terra Interregnum before a time that was convenient to him. He took that risk and acted and his actions led to Haugard doing what he did. Now, I'm not saying that Lucan is responsible for Haugard attempting to commit genocide or saying that Lucan is morally worse than Haugard. I'm merely saying that Lucan didn't stumble across this situation at random. This to me makes him more morally culpable for the ethical conumdrum of garbage choices that he was forced into.
I didn't write anything about divination in my post. I merely pointed out that it should've occurred to Lucan many years ago that he might've needed to prepare some sort of distraction or deterrence in case the Imperium discovered his plans before he was truly ready to act. A huge-ass Imperial battlefleet seems like a fairly straightforward and obvious response from the Imperium and a guy with Lucan's ressources and intelligence could've presumably come up with a more clever response than "Use my psychic powers to mind-control all of them".
I'll also note that I didn't say anything about faking orders. He could've created a real crisis, though that might've admittedly caused more harm than him mind-controlling the members of the fleet, though that'd depend on the crisis in question. I guess it's hard for me to say because I'm not Lucan and I don't have his powers, his knowledge or his time to plan.
And I think this is basically the crux of the issue. Your argument regardly Lucan's mental state and decision-making is basically that the ends justify the means. He can mind control nazis because they're nazis who want to conduct a genocide. His only other options in that situation were worse. In isolation most people, myself included, would agree with that.
However, these things don't happen in isolation and Lucan was partially responsible for creating the circumstances that led to this situation. Since we're already talking about the nazis, I think I've come up with a terrible analogy to explain my position:
Imagine if Stalin had mind control powers and he used them a day after the Nazis started invading the Soviet Union in 1941. Now, we'd all say he was justified in doing so and him doing it was a good thing. However, Stalin was partially responsible for the rise of the nazis, both through his support for the KPD-SPD split/hostility in Weimar Germany during the 1920's-1930's and his non-aggression and cooperation with Nazi Germany with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in 1939-1941. In this context, Stalin is both more morally culpable for creating the circumstances that lead to the invasion of the Soviet Union and his decision to mind control the soldiers of the countries that invaded the Soviet Union.
Terrible analogy over.
I'm sorry if that's how I came across. I'm not sure how you'd get that from my post but I certainly don't think that's the case.
ReaperofInterest
Herald of Disaster
HEY I HAVE AN IDEA! LET'S TALK ABOUT LITERALLY ANYTHINHG OTHER THAN LUCAN! Like, for example, does anyone have any idea as to what the possible Ynnead Ritual sites are?
It would be absolutely hilarious to see Pandora's reaction to that.