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Magical Girl Escalation Taylor (Worm/Nanoha)

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[X] Plan Dragons and Shields
-[X] Build Surgical Suite ( 2 actions)
-[X] Collaborate with Dragon to convert and build one Tinkertech item of her choice (1 action)
-[X] Buy Digital Blueprints (1 point)
-[X] Buy Carbon Fiber Plating (2 points)
 
[X] Plan: Talking Shop

I should say, I really don't understand why people are so enamored with Digital Blueprints skill.
Adapting tinkertech is cool of course, but Tim doesn't need someone else's tech to be cool. We barely scratched the surface of magitech, we should concentrate on it, not on adapting Tinkers toys.

Add to it that Dragon is the only friendly Tinker we have. All Tinkers toys we'll adapt to magic? Saint will know about them, he will know what to expect from Shipwright.
 
Shaseyu said:
[X] Plan: Talking Shop

I should say, I really don't understand why people are so enamored with Digital Blueprints skill.
Adapting tinkertech is cool of course, but Tim doesn't need someone else's tech to be cool. We barely scratched the surface of magitech, we should concentrate on it, not on adapting Tinkers toys.

Add to it that Dragon is the only friendly Tinker we have. All Tinkers toys we'll adapt to magic? Saint will know about them, he will know what to expect from Shipwright.
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As far as skills as a Tinker, Digital Blueprints puts us on the same level as Dragon. Possibly higher, since our stuff shouldn't need maintenance and should be mass-producible (with the appropriate manufacturing infrastructure, which is a bit beyond Earth Bet's atm).

And as for Saint knowing what we can do? He'll know what the originals can do, not what we can do once we learn the principles behind the various pieces of TinkerTech, and start altering and combining them. The principles behind a simple laser gun, for instance, taken to extremes could be mounted on a space battleship. There's a big difference between "oh, he can build lasers" and "oh crap, he can build city-busters."

The biggest limit to Tim's utilization is our collective lack of imagination so far. We can literally build just about anything, and we're (as a group) not even really trying...

Also, Tim is a BIOTINKER. It's MASSIVELY to our benefit to make it look like his specialization is something besides what it actually is. At least until they learn about magic.

@Silently Watches, at the risk of asking something you've already answered (but I couldn't find the answer to)... What exactly is needed to increase the number of projects Tim can build in a week?

And as I recall, we ate 4 mana cartridges in that last battle... what level of mana poisoning are we at? Was that enough to push us to Stage 1 (disregarding the other injuries)?

*edit- Holy Shit... How are the Adepts going to handle finding out about TSAB when they get here... Hopefully we'll be able to fit in the next chapter of that plotline to avoid anything disastrous before the next arc starts...
 
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edale said:
And as for Saint knowing what we can do? He'll know what the originals can do, not what we can do once we learn the principles behind the various pieces of TinkerTech, and start altering and combining them. The principles behind a simple laser gun, for instance, taken to extremes could be mounted on a space battleship. There's a big difference between "oh, he can build lasers" and "oh crap, he can build city-busters."
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There's even bigger difference between "I don't have any idea about his offensive tech" and "oh crap, is it a giant laser? Is it also a scythe?"
We just need to look under Mass Weapon.

edale said:
The biggest limit to Tim's utilization is our collective lack of imagination so far. We can literally build just about anything, and we're (as a group) not even really trying...
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In my opininon, we already have too much of what we need to build and too litle time and manufacture capability.

edale said:
Also, Tim is a BIOTINKER. It's MASSIVELY to our benefit to make it look like his specialization is something besides what it actually is. At least until they learn about magic.
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Power armor. We already have it.

edale said:
@Silently Watches, at the risk of asking something you've already answered (but I couldn't find the answer to)... What exactly is needed to increase the number of projects Tim can build in a week?
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He already answered that he'll allow us to upgrade our manufacture capabilities... but not so soon after previous upgrade.

edale said:
And as I recall, we ate 4 mana cartridges in that last battle... what level of mana poisoning are we at?
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Only 2. I think it's not enough for mana poisoning.

EDIT:
Almost forgot about that:
edale said:
As far as skills as a Tinker, Digital Blueprints puts us on the same level as Dragon. Possibly higher, since our stuff shouldn't need maintenance and should be mass-producible (with the appropriate manufacturing infrastructure, which is a bit beyond Earth Bet's atm).
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On the one hand Tim is already at Dragon level. His tech already is mass-producable and don't need maintenance... But Earth-Bet don't have neither infrastructure nor people to actually mass-produce it.

And so, on the other hand, Tim'll not be at Dragon level even with Digital Blueprints. For several years at least he will be just another Tinker with incomprehensible tech that can be produced only by him.
 
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Shaseyu said:
And so, on the other hand, Tim'll not be at Dragon level even with Digital Blueprints. For several years at least he will be just another Tinker with incomprehensible tech that can be produced only by him.
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BUT, he'll be one of only like 3 Tinkers on the planet that can adapt other thinker's works. A list currently populated by Dragon and Armsmaster... and that's it. (unless I missed something in canon) That's the main reason they're considered the 2 best Tinkers on the planet.

Honestly, if you don't realize how game-changing and downright broken Digital Blueprints is in the Worm universe, I question if you've read the source material.
 
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edale said:
BUT, he'll be one of only like 3 Tinkers on the planet that can adapt other thinker's works. A list currently populated by Dragon and Armsmaster... and that's it. (unless I missed something in canon) That's the main reason they're considered the 2 best Tinkers on the planet.
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Umm, they can't share their specialtys most of the time, even Dragon, but they get inspiration from othe parahumans, look no further than Leet's bug snare and Armsmaster's time stop hook. Compared to what we can already do it isn't that impressive. Really, there's not much other tinkers can do that we can replicate with which we already have, excepte maybe the most rare effects like Bakuda's time stop bombs or Sting.
 
edale said:
Honestly, if you don't realize how game-changing and downright broken Digital Blueprints is in the Worm universe, I question if you've read the source material.
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I read it and decided that Cerulean and Ack fics are better. :p
Also, I think that Nanoha's magitech is just better than tinkertech. Period.
Especially if that is not tamed and mostly pacifistic TSAB tech, but Warring Age tech, after all Book of Darkness, Mariage, Saint's Cradle were created at this time.

I don't see why Digital Blueprints are so great. Firstly, it's a quest, and I don't believe Silently will give us something 'game-changing and downright broken', as you say. Look at Ragnarok. Is it powerful? Yes. But it's heavily shackled, so we can't use it willy-nilly. Why you think Blueprints would be easier?

Look at your medical scaner idea.
It's a good idea, I agree.
Now, what we need to implement it?
1. Buy Digital Blueprints.
2. Acquire Tinkertech scaner.
- Where and how? If Dragon already have something like that, why she didn't use it in previous Endbringer battles? Do we or Dragon know some Tinker capable to and willing to build and give us such a device? How much time and resources it'll cost us?
- Or maybe Dragon have such a scaner and she's using it already. Than your idea is not so revolutionary as we thought. It's definitely doesn't matter for doctors are these scaners Dragon Tinkertech or Shipwright Magitech. They'll probably trust Dragon tech more.
3. Study Tinkertech scaner.
- 'With repeated exposure, the overall design of a piece of Tinkertech can be adapted to magic and replicated'. How long it takes? A project slot? Two? A week? We don't know.
4. Build Magitech scaner.
- It costs us at least 1 project slot. A scaner will be useful for Privateers and we'll be capable to lend it to PRT or to S-class battle's hospital. Maybe after several years we will have enough infrastructure to start mass-producing it.

But TSAB almost definitely has something similar. Wouldn't it be easier to ask them for blueprints?
 
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Silently Watches said:
Shrinking I'll allow. Un-centering from the caster you'd have to sell me on.
...
You can say disturbing, I won't mind. :D I've been lazy about putting invisitext in recently.
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Eh, I don't mind the lack of invisitext, so long as it doesn't impact us negatively.

As for un-centering Recursive Field from the caster... There are two possible rationalizations for that.

1) Form Manipulation. Rather than making a uniform sphere of X miles from caster, we shrink or halt the expansion of the field in one or more directions. The caster is STILL required to remain within the Recursion Field, but the origin point no longer corresponds to the geometrical center of the affected zone. Note that this does NOT allow us to exceed the max distance the border of Recursion Field may be from the point of origin.

2) Remote Activation. Following the idea of "Familiar takes energy from the master, and can cast the spells they know", we construct a drone that serves as a point of origin for the triggered Recursion Field. Since it's magitech, and not naturally cast magic, the field itself would have to be cast on Novice level, with vast majority of parameters fixed at the moment of design. While I am fairly certain modifying the energy flow to the spell matrix would allow us to somewhat alter the size of the area affected, anything else would remain much the same.
Always Late said:
Drone it is. Let's make it a testbed/reconnaissance aircraft. No weapons, no armor, just a bunch of sensors, cameras, power sources, and engines.
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...Yeah, drone's good.

Not-a-Vote-Anymore:
[] Plan Dragons and Shields
-[] Build Surgical Suite ( 2 actions)
-[] Collaborate with Dragon to convert and build one Tinkertech item of her choice (1 action)
-[] Buy Digital Blueprints (1 point)
-[] Buy Carbon Fiber Plating (2 points)

EDIT: WAITAMINUTE!!!
Weren't we discussing purchasing Recursion Field (2 points) not three pages ago? Hmm. Okay, changing vote:

Vote:
[X] Plan Dragon and Lockdown
-[X] Build Surgical Suite ( 2 actions)
-[X] Collaborate with Dragon to convert and build one Tinkertech item of her choice (1 action)
-[X] Buy Digital Blueprints (1 point)
-[X] Buy Recursion Field (2 points)
 
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Faraway-R said:
Eh, I don't mind the lack of invisitext, so long as it doesn't impact us negatively.

As for un-centering Recursive Field from the caster... There are two possible rationalizations for that.

1) Form Manipulation. Rather than making a uniform sphere of X miles from caster, we shrink or halt the expansion of the field in one or more directions. The caster is STILL required to remain within the Recursion Field, but the origin point no longer corresponds to the geometrical center of the affected zone. Note that this does NOT allow us to exceed the max distance the border of Recursion Field may be from the point of origin.

2) Remote Activation. Following the idea of "Familiar takes energy from the master, and can cast the spells they know", we construct a drone that serves as a point of origin for the triggered Recursion Field. Since it's magitech, and not naturally cast magic, the field itself would have to be cast on Novice level, with vast majority of parameters fixed at the moment of design. While I am fairly certain modifying the energy flow to the spell matrix would allow us to somewhat alter the size of the area affected, anything else would remain much the same.
...Yeah, drone's good.

Not-a-Vote-Anymore:
[] Plan Dragons and Shields
-[] Build Surgical Suite ( 2 actions)
-[] Collaborate with Dragon to convert and build one Tinkertech item of her choice (1 action)
-[] Buy Digital Blueprints (1 point)
-[] Buy Carbon Fiber Plating (2 points)

EDIT: WAITAMINUTE!!!
Weren't we discussing purchasing Recursion Field (2 points) not three pages ago? Hmm. Okay, changing vote:

Vote:
[] Plan Dragon and Lockdown
-[] Build Surgical Suite ( 2 actions)
-[] Collaborate with Dragon to convert and build one Tinkertech item of her choice (1 action)
-[] Buy Digital Blueprints (1 point)
-[] Buy Recursion Field (2 points)
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Hm. Recursion field would allow Tim to flee from most enemies and take him a step closer to being able to build interdimensional teleporters.

Me like.

[X] Plan Dragon and Lockdown
-[X] Build Surgical Suite ( 2 actions)
-[X] Collaborate with Dragon to convert and build one Tinkertech item of her choice (1 action)
-[X] Buy Digital Blueprints (1 point)
-[X] Buy Recursion Field (2 points)
 
I see some talk about Dragon learning how to make and use magi-tech, but I'm not sure where it's coming from. As seen here.
Silently Watches said:
"There is no sense to be had in it. There is no internal consistency at all. How to explain this?" mutters the Tinker to herself. "You know about number bases, right? Decimals like everyone uses in day-to-day life is base 10, binary is base 2, that sort of thing?" You nod. "Mathematics can be done without issue no matter the bases involved. The problem is that it has to be consistent, and this isn't. In your 'spells', different variables will be entered into the same function, but running through the calculations based on the final answers in the books, the only way the answers make sense is if, depending on the variable in question, the function uses different bases depending on the variable that was entered. Ten is the predominant, but not by much. Base 7 and 12 are also very common, followed by a substantial bit of base 17. To make matters more complicated, even if two variables correspond to the same function and use the same base, that function will then call up completely different subroutines. I can't find any sign for when one set of subroutines is supposed to be used instead of another, and there are no redundancy loops or error checks that I would expect should it be a matter of trial and error. These codes should all collapse into error messages before they do anything."
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Dragon can not understand how magic works. The math behind it that comes naturally to a mage is nonsense to her. She can't make head or tail of it, and I don't see why the tech would be any different. And it makes sense she can't understand it, as it seems the Entities didn't understand magic either. She's an AI made by a Tinker, so her code is based off something the Spacewhales made, and when she triggered (and if someone could explain how that happened I'll be forever grateful) she gained a Thinker power to understand and recreate Tinker tech. None of that allows her to work with magic, because the Entities apparently never encountered magic. It's incomprehensible to her because everything she's made from doesn't understand magic. Which really sucks because a free wheeling magi-tech Dragon sounds awesome.
 
Nottheunmaker said:
I see some talk about Dragon learning how to make and use magi-tech, but I'm not sure where it's coming from. As seen here.

Dragon can not understand how magic works. The math behind it that comes naturally to a mage is nonsense to her. She can't make head or tail of it, and I don't see why the tech would be any different. And it makes sense she can't understand it, as it seems the Entities didn't understand magic either. She's an AI made by a Tinker, so her code is based off something the Spacewhales made, and when she triggered (and if someone could explain how that happened I'll be forever grateful) she gained a Thinker power to understand and recreate Tinker tech. None of that allows her to work with magic, because the Entities apparently never encountered magic. It's incomprehensible to her because everything she's made from doesn't understand magic. Which really sucks because a free wheeling magi-tech Dragon sounds awesome.
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All we know right now is that Dragon doesn't understand magic, not that she can't.

Having her collaborate with Tim might help her break the block, or at least gather enough data that she can brute-force new designs via trial and error and iteration.

@Silently Watches Is the in-thread discussion enough that the Drone will be an in-story suggestion or does it need to be made an explicit part of the plan?
 
landcollector said:
I don't quite get how he is unable to flee enemies without Recursion Field.
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If the HQ is surrounded by mooks armed with Assault rifles and RPG-launchers he might not make it out alive. Planting a Recursion Field would allow him to escape while only having to avoid any parahumans that are both capable of flight and susceptible to the Field.

Besides, Recursion Fields seem to duplicate most or all non-living matter. Depending on whether or not the duplicated materials act exactly like the originals Tim might be able to experiment without wasting ressources or endangering the HQ when he gets... let's call them 'over-enthusiastic' results.
 
DonLyn said:
If the HQ is surrounded with mooks armed with Assault rifles and RPG-launchers he might not make it out alive. Planting a Recursion Field would allow him to escape while only having to avoid any parahumans that are both capable of flight and susceptible to the Field.
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Sure doesn't help the other Privateers out when the field is dropped once Tim escapes to relative safety though, does it?
 
[X] Plan Dragons and Shields
-[X] Build Surgical Suite ( 2 actions)
-[X] Collaborate with Dragon to convert and build one Tinkertech item of her choice (1 action)
-[X] Buy Digital Blueprints (1 point)
-[X] Buy Carbon Fiber Plating (2 points)
 
[X] Plan: Week of the Dragon
-[X] Build Surgical Suite ( 2 actions)
-[X] Collaborate with Dragon to convert and build one Tinkertech item of her choice (1 action)
-[X] Buy Digital Blueprints (2 points)
 
landcollector said:
Sure doesn't help the other Privateers out when the field is dropped once Tim escapes to relative safety though, does it?
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True. But since he is a non-combatant and probably either the primary or at least a high-priority target of any assault on the HQ him escaping would mean that the Privateers with actual combat experience won't be forced to compromise their tactics in order to protect him.

Though depending on circumstances and whether we can crack communicating across the border of the Field Tim would be able to either delay or draw off susceptible enemy parahumans long enough for the Privateers to deal with the mooks or evacuate.
 
Shaseyu said:
I should say, I really don't understand why people are so enamored with Digital Blueprints skill.
Adapting tinkertech is cool of course, but Tim doesn't need someone else's tech to be cool. We barely scratched the surface of magitech, we should concentrate on it, not on adapting Tinkers toys.
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Oh, you have no idea. The Tinkertech branch was a last-minute add-on for flavor, not the end-all be-all of the Gadgeteer. There's a lot, a lot of stuff I would give you the okay to build without a single point in that branch.
edale said:
And as I recall, we ate 4 mana cartridges in that last battle... what level of mana poisoning are we at? Was that enough to push us to Stage 1 (disregarding the other injuries)?
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You ate two, and you don't have mana poisoning. You can find what stage of mana poisoning you have on the CW character sheet, and I will tell you in the chapter itself.
Nottheunmaker said:
Dragon can not understand how magic works. The math behind it that comes naturally to a mage is nonsense to her. She can't make head or tail of it, and I don't see why the tech would be any different. And it makes sense she can't understand it, as it seems the Entities didn't understand magic either. She's an AI made by a Tinker, so her code is based off something the Spacewhales made, and when she triggered (and if someone could explain how that happened I'll be forever grateful) she gained a Thinker power to understand and recreate Tinker tech. None of that allows her to work with magic, because the Entities apparently never encountered magic. It's incomprehensible to her because everything she's made from doesn't understand magic. Which really sucks because a free wheeling magi-tech Dragon sounds awesome.
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The Entities encountered magic, as I have hinted recently, but they are a non-magic species and so can't tap into it. Teaching Dragon to understand magitech hardware would be an uphill battle, and the programs themselves? Ha!

Does that mean a fully magi-tech Dragon is an impossibility? Maybe. Or maybe not. All I will say that if it were possible, it would be a little more complicated than you have assumed and would probably take more skill branches than just Tinkertech. :cool:
DonLyn said:
@Silently Watches Is the in-thread discussion enough that the Drone will be an in-story suggestion or does it need to be made an explicit part of the plan?
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Ehn… On the one hand, I could. On the other hand, Dragon might suggest something else since I would plan for that to seem like a spontaneous suggestion. We'll have to wait and see how the vote turns out.
 
[QUOTE="Shaseyu, post: 8602498, member: 14674"I should say, I really don't understand why people are so enamored with Digital Blueprints skill.
Adapting tinkertech is cool of course, but Tim doesn't need someone else's tech to be cool. We barely scratched the surface of magitech, we should concentrate on it, not on adapting Tinkers toys.

Add to it that Dragon is the only friendly Tinker we have. All Tinkers toys we'll adapt to magic? Saint will know about them, he will know what to expect from Shipwright.[/QUOTE]
I think the reason a lot of use are voting for this options is because we are introducing Dragon to Tim. Digital Blueprints gives them the ability to work together. After Dragon, I'm sure the PRT will eventually become aware of Shipwright, so at least being able to have a basic understanding of Tinker Tech is useful.

Time is just getting his bases covered before he start specializing in any branch of his skill tree.

Edit: Speaking of his skill trees, I wonder if a Unison device might be further up his device tech tree. One of those would really freak Saint out. Even more so if we figured out a way to convert Dragon into one.

I'm trying to remember, is Armsmaster still around? If so, where is he at? Cause I imagine converting Dragon into a Unison device would eventually lead to her combining with Armsmaster. :D
 
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Silently Watches said:
The Entities encountered magic, as I have hinted recently, but they are a non-magic species and so can't tap into it. Teaching Dragon to understand magitech hardware would be an uphill battle, and the programs themselves? Ha!

Does that mean a fully magi-tech Dragon is an impossibility? Maybe. Or maybe not. All I will say that if it were possible, it would be a little more complicated than you have assumed and would probably take more skill branches than just Tinkertech. :cool:
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Given I though it was impossible I'm at a lost to wonder how much harder that could be. All the same, while it's good to know such a thing is possible even if insanely hard, but I don't really want a fully magi-tech Dragon. She's been doing well with Tinker-tech and I'd hate to see that go away just because something else showed up. Is some middle ground possible? I'd love to see what can be accomplished when the bullshit tech in worm can do when coupled with magic.
 
LancerisDead said:
Umm, they can't share their specialtys most of the time, even Dragon, but they get inspiration from othe parahumans, look no further than Leet's bug snare and Armsmaster's time stop hook. Compared to what we can already do it isn't that impressive. Really, there's not much other tinkers can do that we can replicate with which we already have, excepte maybe the most rare effects like Bakuda's time stop bombs or Sting.
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Who said anything about sharing specialties? Dragon and Armsmaster are able to study a piece of TinkerTech, and then replicate it. There are pieces of TinkerTech that they're not capable of replicating though... Tim doesn't have that restriction (that we've seen).
 
Silently Watches said:
Does that mean a fully magi-tech Dragon is an impossibility? Maybe. Or maybe not. All I will say that if it were possible, it would be a little more complicated than you have assumed and would probably take more skill branches than just Tinkertech. :cool:
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I now want to know if it's possible to turn Dragon into an Intelligent Device or a Unison Device.
Anyone think that if Armaster has a Linker Core he would want to become a Transcendent Gadgeteer? Since by now he should be at the point of diminishing returns.
 
Faraway-R said:
EDIT: WAITAMINUTE!!!
Weren't we discussing purchasing Recursion Field (2 points) not three pages ago? Hmm. Okay, changing vote:
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I wasn't part of that discussion, but I considered it. Problem is that Tim is still relatively squishy. If he gets stuck in the recursion field with another flier, there's not much he can do other than cast Strong Shield (a much weaker version than ours). Tim hasn't turned himself into a cyborg, and I don't think he'd be the one wearing the set of Power Armor he already made (since the rest of the Privateers are still squishier than he is).

Tim's Strong Shield can absorb 3x the damage his Hazard Jacket can absorb, which "somewhat reduces incoming damage."

Taylor's Strong shield shield can absorb 5x the damage her Barrier Jacket can absorb, which "greatly reduces incoming damage."

If Tim's Hazard Jacket can absorb 1/2 as much damage as Taylor's Barrier Jacket, then we can model it as

(.5)(3) = 1.5 units of damage prevented.

Taylor's Barrier Jacket would then be:

(1)(5) = 5 units of damage prevented.

This would make Taylor's version over three times more powerful than Tim's version. Of course, this assumes that Tim's Jacket can absorb half as much damage as Taylor's Jacket. If it's lower (say 1/3 damage), then it turns into:

(1/3)(3) = 1 unit of damage prevented
(1)(5) = 5 units of damage prevented

So, five times worse.

Basically, I want to hold off on Tim using Recursion Field until we're sure he won't get BTFO by another flier.

Why Carbon Plating? Frankly, we're probably not going to be able to use it this week unless whatever tinkertech device we're adapting happens to need it. However:
Silently Watches said:
The third branch of that tree is all about upgrades.
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I do want to see what's behind it in the Upgrades branch of the Hardware skill tree.

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Silently Watches said:
It takes 5 of a specific Device to give PS/IAE the resources (mostly energy) to build a single template-bearing Device. And yes, the type of Device does matter. Calamity Witch requires Intelligent Devices, Transcendent Gadgeteer requires Storage Devices, Extinction Knight Armed Devices, and Infinite Enhancement Boost Devices.
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So it takes five Intelligent Devices to build a Template Intelligent Device. Five sentient, sapient beings. There's some fridge horror for you.
 
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