Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This assumes Daemon goes full scorched earth before she's 20... because if the sword is already hers I bet she'd just wear it any chance she got
The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest
UrbanAvena
Stair climber and vertical movement enthusiast
- Location
- In the stairwell and elevator shaft.
It put the alliance in the starker term and sharpen the material condition of the alliance. That marrying us may not be enough to protect Dorne from Daemon except if Dorne quickly swear fealty. Because Viserys may stop us from endangering ourselves in directly protecting Qoren and Dorne. That is the true reality on the ground.
I concede that current argument doesn't clearly put the weakness on Viserys feet. Unfortunately badmouthing Viserys directly is more showing weakness. I hope Qoren shrewdness will see the situation for what it is and see the Viserys and Daemon problem of it not Rhaenyra as the messenger. I am sure he have enough gossip about Daemon and Viserys relation.
I wonder who will be better welcomed back by Viserys? His Brother that killed his Daughter or his Daughter that killed his Brother?[][Defiant] Confront Daemon in Person
Agreed ye olden days was mess especially because they were limited by the speed of communication, especially for such a large piece of land that is Westeros.
- Location
- Germany
I don't think that you would get Qoren convinced that Viserys could actually restrain Rhaenyra if she puts her mind to something.
Also, y'all treat this as some sort of concession to Dorne. Thus is predominantly a means for both Qoren and us to win over reluctant vassals and smooth over the friction of unification. We are looking at 10 years or more as a conservative estimate that can be used to make progresses, host festivities and to make deals during those that reduce tensions.
I mean they have a whole desert and mountainous terrain to work with. People mostly living by the river and coast line so there plenty of room to roam and find a place.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
After some more thought and seeing the arguments here ultimately my anxieties on the deal have been eased, particularly the pointing out of more time being a means of smoothing over the friction of unification. I just also generally dislike the argument we're presenting which seems to be saying that our word and agreement to a binding alliance is less ironclad in the face of a rogue prince acting independently.
[X] Accept them as is
[X] Accept them as is
Well most of the agreement is pretty solid overall. I would extend those 18 months the usual 2 year average for winter. That will allow everyone to get their ducks in a row and hopefully not starve people during winter. The oath of fealty can be integrated into the wedding ceremony that wouldn't be unusual. The possible 3rd child to be squired should be of either gender. Don't want to be holding the bag for a son and go the way of Aemma.
I know some people are concerned about visiting Dorne but I assume Rhaenyra is going to regularly vist the child that will be heir to Dorne. So she'll need to get use to it anyway might as well see what route she'll take in the future.
I know some people are concerned about visiting Dorne but I assume Rhaenyra is going to regularly vist the child that will be heir to Dorne. So she'll need to get use to it anyway might as well see what route she'll take in the future.
Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Afaict, that point of the agreement was very much an "if-then" statement. If Nyra has a son after the two heirs, he will squire under a Dornishman. If she doesn't, then, well, nobody's gonna force her to. And given that she is the stronger party in marriage and that Qoren kinda sorta needs her in good fighting form as the most powerful ally Dorne acquires in this union, if the verdict is that another child is likely to endanger her health, she will just not have more.
And if it turns out that none of her non-heir offspring are boys, but there is a girl who wants to learn how to fight, I'm sure an arrangement can be made even if the treaty only mentioned a boy.
UrbanAvena
Stair climber and vertical movement enthusiast
- Location
- In the stairwell and elevator shaft.
Objection. It is a concession too. The reconciliation and dealmaking facet is clear and also can be done after swearing. But it is also a long period for thing to fuck up. It is a vulnerable time for bad actor to act up. Especially if that bad Actor is Super Special Birthday Boy Daemon who Viserys let run rampant. Early swearing will reduce chance Daemon doing fucky shit by strengthening Dorne position relative to the realm than the relatively weaker Alliance.
Though, I see how Qoren would see that Rhaenyra will still come as I personally support attacking Daemon if he started some shit. I see how it can be seen to be a weakness that reflect to Rhaenyra personally while I still feel the benefit out weight the risk.
- Location
- Germany
The only difference between an alliance and fealty in regards to an attack by Daemon is that the other lords of the realm would have an obligation to defend Dorne regardless of if the king calls on them as this would be a matter of realm peace. But, as the events in the Vale show, they can also just sit it out, especially if Viserys doesn't call on them.
Either the kings word means something or it doesn't. It doesn't matter if the pledge to defend Dorne was as part of an alliance or as part of an oath of fealty.
And I think it's a very bad idea to imply Viserys might break his word for any reason.
How Do You React To the Current Terms?
[x] Accept them as is
It is a no-brainer. The terms are very good.
The only thing i would say is to announce the wedding with at least 6 months of antecedence as to make time for all lords and ladies of the realm to attend to it. But that is a minor detail.
[x] Accept them as is
It is a no-brainer. The terms are very good.
The only thing i would say is to announce the wedding with at least 6 months of antecedence as to make time for all lords and ladies of the realm to attend to it. But that is a minor detail.
Toaster cult
I Am An Imaginary Living Body
- Location
- Tokyo
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Ended up not liking the vibe of puting doubt on if we'd uphold the alliance
[x] Accept them as is
[x] Accept them as is
- Location
- Spain
Ok, this is a great point...
As I said before, the terms are great, even if I would have preferred that the waiting for the wedding had been 24 instead of 18 months (better to pick the higher average of seasonal duration) BUT honestly, I want to keep Rhaenyra on the loop about what is happening in the Stepstones, and I prefer a little more interaction with Qooren...
[X] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-[X] Ask what seems to be the issue with Stepstone negotiations
Last edited:
[X] Accept them as is
I hope Rhea gets to attend Nyra wedding and vice versa.
UrbanAvena
Stair climber and vertical movement enthusiast
- Location
- In the stairwell and elevator shaft.
That difference is significant. As while the King is paralyzed, other actor will still act based on that difference. Rhaenyra can with Otto and other councilors, assemble an army in Viserys name to protect the King's Peace. But the councilor and other vassal will be reluctant to independently face Daemon for only an Ally, Corlys may even help Daemon.
It is the difference of Rhaenyra and Syrax alone facing Caraxes and rampaging Daemon's Army and Rhaenyra at the head of Realm supported punitive force against Daemon's force. A dragon and an army is vastly better than a dragon alone vs another dragon and army. Allied Dornish army will also be harder to be inside the Seven Kingdom rather than a vassal Dorne if there is any need for Army that is loyal to Rhaenyra.
Viserys is where my prior differ significantly. Sooner or later the fact that Viserys is a shit-king that let his brother run amok and left his heir weak and unprepared is going to be clear for any of our inner circle. And it is better to be sooner for us and Qoren as his position is as risky as us and his and our new position are being decided right now.
Last edited:
[x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-[X] Ask what seems to be the issue with Stepstone negotiations
[x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-[X] Ask what seems to be the issue with Stepstone negotiations
-[X] You want a Bedding Ceremony
The Bedding Ceremony is because I think a lack of one would be noticeable. Having it shows both a willingness to go along with tradition and it's a "shared point of suffering" that many/all men and women in the kingdom go through, though to varying degress.
-[X] Ask what seems to be the issue with Stepstone negotiations
[x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-[X] Ask what seems to be the issue with Stepstone negotiations
-[X] You want a Bedding Ceremony
The Bedding Ceremony is because I think a lack of one would be noticeable. Having it shows both a willingness to go along with tradition and it's a "shared point of suffering" that many/all men and women in the kingdom go through, though to varying degress.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That is rather against most things Rhaenyra has been about in this quest, to say the least.
might be bamboozling myself but I could have sworn we already vociferously raised objections to the bedding ceremony
if not, we should have, for both in-character and out-of-character reasons, and good on Viserys and/or Qoren for nixing it
if not, we should have, for both in-character and out-of-character reasons, and good on Viserys and/or Qoren for nixing it
Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The point was raised in thread, and the response was "you can, but people will notice"
We had the option of asking for it as part of our initial request to Viserys and iirc it didn't make it into any popular plans
But now that the negotiation arrived there without us even having to ask, yeaaah no way Rhaenyra is going to request a bedding ceremony now
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I will say this isn't just a favor to Rhaenyra, Qoren has reasons for not wanting a Bedding.
UrbanAvena
Stair climber and vertical movement enthusiast
- Location
- In the stairwell and elevator shaft.
Of course! This when he introduce his lover(s) to us.
Yes, which is why I think it's important to be seen going along with tradition some of the time. Picking your battles, in essence.
These are entirely just my thoughts, of couse. And the following may not be clear or accurate because I'm very sleep deprived from the last couple of days, so I'll apologize before hand.
So, an important part of ruling is legitimacy. The whole Dance of the Dragons in canon has a strong basis in that, as has the issues with Maegor and the Darkfyres. Legitimacy matters, and a large part of legitimacy rests on social norms and traditions. This means that doing things that got against then and/or casts doubts on legitimacy are big problems.
Now, that's a significant issue for us as we're alread suffering legitimacy issues right from the get go. Precedent says that females don't inherit the Iron Throne. And we're violating all sorts of social norms with our behaviour and have shattered tradition by becoming a female knight. This hurts our legitimacy!
This isn't to say there aren't precedents and traditions that don't support us, of course. But it's something to make note of, and if a tradition/precedent doesn't need to be broken, it may be better to leave it intact.
While on a more personal level, social mores and traditions are simultaneously social glue and social lubricant. Someone who follows the same traditions and experience the same cultural rituals is someone you're art of an "in-group" with and someone you have points of shares reference to break the ice. How many noble women gossip, discussion and sympatheize over their fellow participants in this cultural ractice? And since it's done to both bride and groom, I suspect trying convince people it's demeaning for women will go nowhere.
IMO, the benefits of not participating in this cultural event do not outweigh the costs. And normally, I wouldn't care, except we're marrying to bring Dorne into the fold, which is going to rustle feathers, not least because we know in canon there's orejudice towards the Dornish and their customs, with a not-indignkficsnt amount of support the Blackfyres received being due to fears of Dornish culture succeeding gheir own. Which means even small savings of legitimacy/social credit are important.
Blog that talks about it a lot: Miscellanea: Thoughts on CKIII: Royal Court
Collections: Teaching Paradox, Crusader Kings III, Part I: Making It Personal
This is the first post in a four-part (I, IIa, IIb, III, IV) series examining the historical assumptions of Crusader Kings III, a historical grand strategy game by Paradox Interactive set during th…
acoup.blog
Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah, I assumed as much. Of the people involved in the negotiation, Viserys knows what Rhaenyra's focus is on, Otto has no reasons whatsoever to avoid a Bedding Ceremony, and Qoren has way too much to wrangle (the opinions of all his vassals, Dorne's economic position, short-term and long-term...) to include something with an obvious downside for the sole reason of guessing that Rhaenyra would like it. We don't know the reasons and the arguments used, so I'd rather not barge into that even if Nyra were the kind of person who wouldn't mind a Bedding.
Hmm, that does change things. Changing my vote:
[X] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-[X] Ask what seems to be the issue with Stepstone negotiations
[X] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-[X] Ask what seems to be the issue with Stepstone negotiations
-[X] Ask about the lack of a Bedding Ceremony.
Him not wanting it/asking it to be skipped does change things in enough ways that I now can't decide if it'd be net positive or negative. Better to ask why, I think.
Last edited: