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The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest

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[x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-[X] The timing of Dorne's swearing of fealty
--[X] An immediate oath of fealty upon marriage would offer Dorne more protection against Daemon's Bloodstone Kingdom than an alliance. In a fight between an allied Dorne and Bloodstone, the Iron Throne would be forced into an impossible choice between kin, to help one over the other, or to help neither. In a fight between a Dorne sworn to the Iron Throne, and a Bloodstone which is not, the Iron Throne's position would already be decided. Even should Bloodstone itself later swear fealty, the Iron Throne would be obliged to side against the aggressor in the name of the King's or Queen's Peace. Swearing fealty immediately might even deter such a war entirely.
 
[X] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-[X] The timing of Dorne's swearing of fealty
--[X] An immediate oath of fealty upon marriage would offer Dorne more protection against Daemon's Bloodstone Kingdom than an alliance. In a fight between an allied Dorne and Bloodstone, the Iron Throne would be forced into an impossible choice between kin, to help one over the other, or to help neither. In a fight between a Dorne sworn to the Iron Throne, and a Bloodstone which is not, the Iron Throne's position would already be decided. Even should Bloodstone itself later swear fealty, the Iron Throne would be obliged to side against the aggressor in the name of the King's or Queen's Peace. Swearing fealty immediately might even deter such a war entirely.

Even if this fails it shows Rhaenyra acument to "international" politics
 
Why do people want civil war so bad?
These current terms are just asking for it honestly.

Edit: No but seriously, why are you all so desperate to give concecions upon concessions to martell. Do you want to marry him so badly you'll ruin any chance of preventing a rebellion just to get with him? We don't have to accept all this and if he refuses than thats it. No marriage.
 
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Zimmerwald1915 said:
How many kids are we planning to have? Two might actually be a majority.
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Considering the whole Dragon Riding thingy, and that we are extremely likely to face a Civil War in the future, the more the merrier...

But even without taking into consideration that, we need at least 2 (one inherits the Iron Throne, the other Dorne) and we should get a couple of spares just in case...
Mars said:
I don't have a problem with the terms as is, but not having a Bedding feels wrong and odd. We didn't even ask for it.
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Well, we didn't ask for it, but Viserys knows his daughter and how the Bedding ceremony would be pretty uncomfortable if not outright humiliating to Rhaenyra and since he loves her daughter very much he has opted to remove it...

And besides that, there is also the pragmatic realisation that our Rhaenyra is quite likely to punch the lights out of any drunkard who tries to grope or rip her dress out during the Bedding ceremony, so better to avoid the diplomatic incident that will come from it...
 
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crusaderking01 said:
Why do people want civil war so bad?
These current terms are just asking for it honestly.
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If we're integrating Dorne by marriage, we have limited options to do the warrior-ing we've built Rhaenyra around other than a civil war. Conquering lands in Essos is not something that occurs to our Rhaenyra; it would have if we'd chosen Ambitious for a trait, but we didn't. Dragons won't go north of the Wall to conquer the Free Folk, and they make a bad prize anyway.
 
Zimmerwald1915 said:
If we're integrating Dorne, we have limited options to do the warrior-ing we've built Rhaenyra around other than a civil war. Conquering lands in Essos is not something that occurs to our Rhaenyra; it would have if we'd chosen Ambitious for a trait, but we didn't. Dragons won't go north of the Wall to conquer the Free Folk, and they make a bad prize anyway.
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So you give dorne 1, possibly 2 dragons and enough concessions that if the lords rebel they'll be able to get away with demanding even more concessions from our weakened selves to help?
 
crusaderking01 said:
So you give dorne 1, possibly 2 dragons and enough concessions that if the lords rebel they'll be able to get away with demanding even more concessions from our weakened selves to help?
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They would be sucked into the rebellion fighting on our side whether they want to or not given our and our children's position within their political system. They won't be in a place to demand concessions after the fact.
 
Annatar said:
They would be sucked into the rebellion fighting on our side whether they want to or not given our and our children's position within their political system. They won't be in a place to demand concessions after the fact.
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The children thing hasn't stopped such schemes before, and with their geography making invasion difficult and the possibilty of the westerlings pulling an otto. its not impossible they'll do it.

Either way why make ourselves look weak by giving unnecesary concessions.
 
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Also, hasn't it been confirmed OOC (and prophesied in-universe) that some variation on the Dance is inevitable?
 
Susano said:
I wouldn't be so sure about that at all.



These current terms are basically what Dorne got in canon. It's nothing extraordinary.
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Targaryens didn't have dragons anymore at that point and had been beaten in another war not to long ago. It also wasn't an agreement with the first True female heir. Quite a bit different.

Shadowhisker said:
Also, hasn't it been confirmed OOC (and prophesied in-universe) that some variation on the Dance is inevitable?
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Does that mean we should make it ten times worse? No. If We really end up marrying martell than we already are at risk of losing otto and dealing with the westerlings. Daemon is also a Problem and through him if we're unlucky the velaryons. These concessions might just guarantee the first 2 will be a problem and the marriage itself is likely to anger corlys and daemon. On top of that it angers a bunch of our lords aswell. And then we don't even integrate them properly until our corronation? Thats not even hard mode, thats dark soul mode.
 
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Susano said:
I wouldn't be so sure about that at all.
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We know that if we had taken Ambitious, a "we can conquer the Triarchy instead" option would have popped up in our list of options to mollify Tarly (and would have probably been the most effective at that aim). But it didn't, since we didn't. Hence, the idea doesn't occur to Rhaenyra "naturally," without us, the voices in her head, writing it in (or without some extraordinary circumstances intervening).

Whether the idea occurs to us depends on the memory of the most prolific posters and the ability of the most eloquent posters to convince the crowd.
 
crusaderking01 said:
Why do people want civil war so bad?
These current terms are just asking for it honestly.
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crusaderking01 said:
Either way why make ourselves look weak by giving unnecesary concessions.
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Well, besides a couple of things that take into account that Nyra is the Heir of the Iron Throne, these terms are basically the same that Dorne got with Daemon the Good... And IRL this is essentially what happened in Medieval Europe whenever new territories were incorporated into a larger kingdom via marriage, the union is formalized when both of the spouses ascend to their respective thrones, and the newly incorporated lands get to keep most of their laws and customs... We are just saving ourselves plenty of lives and unnecessary expenses by avoiding trying to conquer them (lives that can be used in the almost inevitable civil war we will have in our hands in a couple of decades or so)

Shadowhisker said:
Also, hasn't it been confirmed OOC (and prophesied in-universe) that some variation on the Dance is inevitable?
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Well, IIRC Teen Spirit confirmed it is extremely likely to happen, but not 100% absolutely inevitable...
Zimmerwald1915 said:
If we're integrating Dorne by marriage, we have limited options to do the warrior-ing we've built Rhaenyra around other than a civil war. Conquering lands in Essos is not something that occurs to our Rhaenyra; it would have if we'd chosen Ambitious for a trait, but we didn't. Dragons won't go north of the Wall to conquer the Free Folk, and they make a bad prize anyway.
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I would like to point out that we built Rhanyra to value martial prowess and the ideal of becoming a knight, that doesn't mean that our Nyra has to have any interest in conquering lands or going to War...

But hey, if you want to get the Ambitious trait, all we have to do is keep fulfilling our dreams and we will eventually unlock a new trait selection...
 
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Zimmerwald1915 said:
We know that if we had taken Ambitious, a "we can conquer the Triarchy instead" option would have popped up in our list of options to mollify Tarly (and would have probably been the most effective at that aim). But it didn't, since we didn't. Hence, the idea doesn't occur to Rhaenyra "naturally," without us, the voices in her head, writing it in (or without some extraordinary circumstances intervening).

Whether the idea occurs to us depends on the memory of the most prolific posters and the ability of the most eloquent posters to convince the crowd.
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I happen to have a 20 step plan to absolutist monarchy that involves conquering the Triarchy. :ogles:
 
Okay, so something important I noticed while reading through the terms.

"- The heir to Dorne will be raised in Sunspear from the age of five, health premitting. Additionally, the Prince Requests that if a son is born after the two heirs, that they squire with a dornish vassal when they reach an appropriate age. Rhaenyra will have control of over the raising of her heir and all children not mentioned previously."

This line is worded in a way that does not guarantee that we have a say under which dornish vassal our potential son would squire under. The line is very specific that Rhaenyra gets control of how the children not mentioned above are to be raised, right after the squire thing is mentioned.

This might not matter at all, but if things take a turn for the worse and the worst case scenario happens, we might not be able to stop Rhaenyra's child being squired under somebody like Joffrey or somebody that hates us specifically.

We should ask to make it clear in the contract that Rhaenyra gets a say under which dornish vassal her son would squire, for both Rhaenyra's and the child's sake.

[] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-[] try to make sure that the agreement specifies that Rhaenyra gets a say in which dornish vassal her potential son would squire under.
 
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Soup said:
Okay, so something important I noticed while reading through the terms.

"- The heir to Dorne will be raised in Sunspear from the age of five, health premitting. Additionally, the Prince Requests that if a son is born after the two heirs, that they squire with a dornish vassal when they reach an appropriate age. Rhaenyra will have control of over the raising of her heir and all children not mentioned previously."

This line is worded in a way that does not guarantee that we have a say under which dornish vassal our potential son would squire under. The line is very specific that Rhaenyra gets control of how the children not mentioned above are to be raised, right after the squire thing is mentioned.

This might not matter at all, but if things take a turn for the worse and the worst case scenario happens, we might not be able to stop Rhaenyra's child being squired under somebody like Joffrey or somebody that hates us specifically.

We should ask to make it clear in the contract that Rhaenyra gets a say under which dornish vassal her son would squire, for both Rhaenyra's and the child's sake.

[X] Accept them as is
-but make sure that it specifies that Rhaenyra gets a say in which dornish vassal her potential son would squire under.
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Dude this is literally trying to change the terms and requires speaking to Qoren about it. By default having control of who a kid is squired under means having full control. You can't have your cake and eat it to.
 
Soup said:
This line is worded in a way that does not guarantee that we have a say under which dornish vassal our potential son would squire under. The line is very specific that Rhaenyra gets control of how the children not mentioned above are to be raised, right after the squire thing is mentioned.

This might not matter at all, but if things take a turn for the worse and the worst case scenario happens, we might not be able to stop Rhaenyra's child being squired under somebody like Joffrey or somebody that hates us specifically.
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It's not just Rhaenyra's (hypothetical future) child, it's Rhaenyra and Qoren's child. He will not squander his own blood like that. And he has shown himself to be an insightful man, so the Joffreys of his kingdom would find it harder to hide their nature from him than from us.
 
Teen Spirit said:
That would be a [] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
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Sorry, fixed.


A_Somebody said:
Dude this is literally trying to change the terms and requires speaking to Qoren about it. By default having control of who a kid is squired under means having full control. You can't have your cake and eat it to.
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Rhaenyra would not get to choose which vassal her son would squire under, that would still be up to Qoren (sorry if that was unclear) but I want her to be able to speak up and have at least veto power if she thinks that that the proposal would seriously impact the child in a negative way and the way the agreement is worded currently does not guarantee that.


Somic said:
It's not just Rhaenyra's (hypothetical future) child, it's Rhaenyra and Qoren's child. He will not squander his own blood like that. And he has shown himself to be an insightful man, so the Joffreys of his kingdom would find it harder to hide their nature from him than from us.
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Like the question above, it would still be Qoren who decides. Truth be told I think we would get a say in it anyway, but I want to make sure. Just in case bad things happen between now and the time when it happens. Its not a big ask, but potentially a very important one.



[X] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-[X] try to make sure that the agreement specifies that Rhaenyra gets a say in which dornish vassal her potential son would squire under.
 
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Tally for the curious
Adhoc vote count started by UrbanAvena on Mar 28, 2025 at 10:08 AM, finished with 202 posts and 50 votes.
  • [X] Accept them as is
    [x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
    -[X] The timing of Dorne's swearing of fealty
    --[X] An immediate oath of fealty upon marriage would offer Dorne more protection against Daemon's Bloodstone Kingdom than an alliance. In a fight between an allied Dorne and Bloodstone, the Iron Throne would be forced into an impossible choice between kin, to help one over the other, or to help neither. In a fight between a Dorne sworn to the Iron Throne, and a Bloodstone which is not, the Iron Throne's position would already be decided. Even should Bloodstone itself later swear fealty, the Iron Throne would be obliged to side against the aggressor in the name of the King's or Queen's Peace. Swearing fealty immediately might even deter such a war entirely.
    [x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
    -[X] Ask what seems to be the issue with Stepstone negotiations
    --[X] (Optional) Argument for Stepstones : Their location are strategic importance to open Narrow Sea as connection for Rhaenyra supporter bases of Vale, Crownland, and Dorne.
    -[X] Give Rhaenyra Dornish Squire as soon as treaty formalised
    -[X] The timing of Dorne's swearing of fealty
    --[X] An immediate oath of fealty upon marriage would offer Dorne more protection against Daemon's Bloodstone Kingdom than an alliance. In a fight between an allied Dorne and Bloodstone, the Iron Throne would be forced into an impossible choice between kin, to help one over the other, or to help neither. In a fight between a Dorne sworn to the Iron Throne, and a Bloodstone which is not, the Iron Throne's position would already be decided. Even should Bloodstone itself later swear fealty, the Iron Throne would be obliged to side against the aggressor in the name of the King's or Queen's Peace. Swearing fealty immediately might even deter such a war entirely.
    -[X] Marriage Deadline
    --[X] (Optional) Argument: 18 months places it at high risk of taking place during winter. This could block significant portions of the kingdoms from being able to visit. 24 months is likely more secure
    [x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
    -[X] Ask what seems to be the issue with Stepstone negotiations
    --[X] (Optional) Argument for Stepstones : Their location are strategic importance to open Narrow Sea as connection for Rhaenyra supporter bases of Vale, Crownland, and Dorne.
    -[X] Give Rhaenyra Dornish Squire as soon as treaty formalised
    -[X] The timing of Dorne's swearing of fealty
    --[X] An immediate oath of fealty upon marriage would offer Dorne more protection against Daemon's Bloodstone Kingdom than an alliance. In a fight between an allied Dorne and Bloodstone, the Iron Throne would be forced into an impossible choice between kin, to help one over the other, or to help neither. In a fight between a Dorne sworn to the Iron Throne, and a Bloodstone which is not, the Iron Throne's position would already be decided. Even should Bloodstone itself later swear fealty, the Iron Throne would be obliged to side against the aggressor in the name of the King's or Queen's Peace. Swearing fealty immediately might even deter such a war entirely.
    [x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
    -[X] The timing of Dorne's swearing of fealty
    --[X] An immediate oath of fealty upon marriage would offer Dorne more protection against Daemon's Bloodstone Kingdom than an alliance. In a fight between an allied Dorne and Bloodstone, the Iron Throne would be forced into an impossible choice between kin, to help one over the other, or to help neither. In a fight between a Dorne sworn to the Iron Throne, and a Bloodstone which is not, the Iron Throne's position would already be decided. Even should Bloodstone itself later swear fealty, the Iron Throne would be obliged to side against the aggressor in the name of the King's or Queen's Peace. Swearing fealty immediately might even deter such a war entirely.
    -[X] Ask what seems to be the issue with Stepstone negotiations
    [X] Reject Them (This Will Have Ramifications)
    [X] Speak to Qoren About the Deal
    -[x] The heir to Dorne will be raised in Sunspear from the age of five
    --[x] being seperated from our child at Five is directly opposed to our wanting greater influence over our children, and our plans of "Dragons ruling Dorne in time." This gives Dorne a dragonrider to mold in their image and should be a red line for the crown.
    [x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
    -[x] Write-in bring up the the potential issue about building a dragon pit for sunspear? Tell the prince that dragons should at least have a place to rest and be alone. That Dragonkeepers would be extremely helpful in the matter in making sure that everything goes more smoothly.
    [x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
    -[X] Ask what seems to be the issue with Stepstone negotiations
    [x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
    -[X] You want a Bedding Ceremony
    --[X] It's a merry custom. Every man or woman, knight or lady, king or queen since the beginning of time has done it. There's no reason why we should avoid it.
    [x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
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